What's the most powerful force in Marvel U

An avatar being fragmented, shattered, used as fuel and still emerge intact because as stated on panel and in its bios the Phoenix Force is mutable, indestructible life force. It cannot be destroyed by canon

Expand your mind beyond the basic superman/hulk/thor model of indestructibility. If you cut off their head or atomize them they are dead, that is not true indestructibility, the Phoenix cannot die.

As for the Phoenix being nearly killed by Galactus, Galactus stated that his machinery was just going to separate the Force from Rachel. The only one in peril was Rachel Phoenix. Not the Phoenix Force.

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In fact the bio reference to the issue states that it was Phoenix 2 RACHEL who was in danger. No mention is made of the Force. The Force on panel and in the bios is stated to be completely indestructible so that would be a bit contradictory and an oversight to have handbook references pertaining to the Force nearly being slain but then also stating the Force to be immortal and completely indestructible don’t you think?

Galactus said it was just a separation. The bio said it was Phoenix 2 in danger.
Drop the point forever. 🙂

Furthermore in that crappy Ultraverse crossover Phoenix avatar was stated to be operating at a reduced capacity within that reality:

Therefore its showings in that title were down to a plot point. It was after all an expression of the 616 universal life force cut off its main body which facilitated the appearance of the Phoenix Force with sub herald characters and mutants.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is so ridiculous it's not worth addressing.

Whys that?
Divergent realities are 616 up until their point of divergence.

The realities of the multiverse (with the obvious exception on pocket dimensions) all had the same beginning, the Big Bang which by canon is the formless non sentient state of the Phoenix Force.
The Forces latest bio also refers to it being a multiversal entity.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Bullshit ... Jean does not, did not,
and could never have contained the power of the Neutron Galaxy within the Mkraan Crystal.

Jean was getting absorbed (fading from existence) when she faced the Neutron galaxy:

(that's the universal destroying power within the Mkraan Crystal)

This N-Galaxy is HELD in Check by a Series of Interlocking Stasis Fields:

In fact, [b]when Jean attempted to fix the Lattice it's clearly stated that:

"it's NOWHERE NEAR good enough"

and again,

Phoenix does NOT "contain" the power of the N-Galaxy that does the destroying:

And on top of this, the Writer clearly states how:

""For ALL Her awesome Power, she can't do it alone""
when she attempted to stop the N-galaxy from breaking out its shell:

Jean,
had to become one with the spirits of all the X-Men and Corsair in order to just re-knit the Lattice.

And even then she fell unconscious from the effort. [/B]

1st off, the M’kraan crystal was retconned into a multiversal nexus of realities back during the AOA saga. So quit your feeble attempts to downplay the feat with your references to its universal destroying power.

The Phoenix is an energy creature so initially it was getting absorbed into the crystal. So in the end it drew on the life forces of the X-men to anchor it to the physical plane so it could then re-energize the energy lattice that kept the m’kraan crystals power in check, so yes the Phoenix Force did contain the power of the crystal.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The visualization of a Universe as proven by ODG and myself.
Jean only manipulated Sublime's atoms which in-turn amputated Sublime's future in reality (Earth-15104)

You proved nothing whatsoever. Me and ODG had this out and he was trumped on the issue. You however will ride his scrotum as long as it suits your purposes.

Prior to Jean even entering the crystal she wiped out the HCT future by amputating it from the point it diverged, thereby giving precedence for a cosmic level of telekinesis.

She then materializes in her hand what we’re told is the universe . Nowhere is it mentioned that it’s a visualization, that’s something you’ve fabricated to downgrade the feat. Find a reference on the scene that states it’s a visualization or I’ll be having silence on the issue.

The fact that she gave precedence for such high level tk before she stepped into the crystal and the fact that the materialization of what we’re told is the universe was said to not be easy should leave no doubt in anyone mind that it was the universe. After telekinetically wiping out a future why would she have to focus to materialize a palm sized hologram? Find the reference or bin your fantasy.

Originally posted by Mr Master
False.

It was Scott's decision that destroyed the future of Reality 15104,
Jean only manipulated Scott's decision.

Another inadvertent affect.

Another lie.
Jean stated that she telekinetically amputated the future and as she said that the HCT reality faded from view.

Jean altering Scotts decision LATER on perpetuated the current timeline we’re reading about now:

“If you want it to grow a new future to replace the [B]you just cut away[B], you have to water it with your hearts blood”
Jean did this by cutting ties with Scott and telepathically urging him to start a new life with Emma. So not only do we have Jean stating she telekinetically cut away the HCT future, we have further confirmation of it from another Phoenix host who states clear as day she cut it away.
It was common sense anyway because if she just urged Scott to change his mind without cutting away the future she would have just created a divergent reality which is what happens when you try to reach back and alter the past. So she cut back the timeline so she could nurture a new future, the one we’re enjoying today.

So just to reiterate, the Phoenix Force is a multiversal entity that at a universal level is the Big Bang.

The firebirds are just expressions of the Big Bang that is the Force, not its totality. There can be multiple fragments of the force in operation simultaneously as we saw with endsong, warsong and rachel grey and korvus with his blade of the Phoenix.

The avatar in the Ultraforce crossover was depowered and operating at a reduced capacity which explains its low showings in that story. Therefore referencing that instance in an attempt to demean the Force as whole is useless in debate.

Galactus stated his machinery was just to separate the Force from Rachel. On panel it is stated that Phoenix was in danger not the Phoenix Force and the bio i posted specifically mentions it was Rachel only who was in danger. Therefore this point also needs to be dropped forevermore 🙂

The Force was being absorbed by the crystal because she is an energy being, so she anchored herself to the physical world with the souls of the x-men and then re-energized the lattice, thereby containing the m'kraan crystals multiversal power.

Jean Grey has on panel telekinetically wiped out not just a universe but 150 years of timeline and thats Jean Grey not the Phoenix Force. As the story showed the Force was also simultaneously empowering dozens of hosts.

Jean then materialized the universe in her palm atom by atom and then steered 616 on its current path by altering Scotts decision which had previously triggered Here Comes Tomorrow in the 1st place.

No one short of LT is stopping the Phoenix Force. 🙂

Originally posted by quanchi112
I've never seen such ownage in all my life. He completely decimated every point gaalctis storm thought he had.

He never could on his best day 😄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He never could on his best day 😄

Originally posted by quanchi112
Dude, he owned you with scans and a clear understanding whereas multiple posters disagree entirely with you. You aren't even half right and your points are all hypocritical as the Phoenix force has never prove itself Galactus level let alone Eternity or higher.

Take apart my argument then. Dont just post that its rubbish. Why dont you explain instead of whining on the sidelines you sidekick.

This is just debating about comics, grow up and stop taking things personal, looking at your date of birth youre too old for that mess. Get the hell outta here 😂

I don't know what is so hard to understand and when people are mentioning Phoenix Force being blown apart by Xorn, shiar ship,... that it's the full PF, while it's not. It's just a fragment of the whole.
People see firebird and automatically assume it's the full PF.
It's not, it's clear it's only a fragment of it.
I don't why it's repeatedly brought up.

GS provided many scans that we could actually go and say PF is actually TOAA creational power. TOAA chose it that way.
Everything in Marvel you see, is actually from the PF.
In some way, everything is part of it, everything lies in it, because PF surrounds everything.

You say Mr Master is owning GS, while GS also provides clear scans about what he is saying.
It's on you on which side you are on, but many here are automatically against GS, because of their ego and want to see him being owned.

Even if PF has such a big role, LT might be above PF, if TOAA chose it that way.
He gave PF such job and LT a different job.
It seems that Living Tribunal and Phoenix Force are TOAA greatest servants.

And if go about Classic Beyonder. He was also TOAA creational power of the universe outside of mainstream Marvel Multiverse.
Classic Beyonder was far bigger or more powerful creational power than PF (if today, CB would be second to TOAA), but that was retconned a long time ago.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I don't know what is so hard to understand and when people are mentioning Phoenix Force being blown apart by Xorn, shiar ship,... that it's the full PF, while it's not. It's just a fragment of the whole.
People see firebird and automatically assume it's the full PF.
It's not, it's clear it's only a fragment of it.
I don't why it's repeatedly brought up.

GS provided many scans that we could actually go and say PF is actually TOAA creational power. TOAA chose it that way.
Everything in Marvel you see, is actually from the PF.
In some way, everything is part of it, everything lies in it, because PF surrounds everything.

You say Mr Master is owning GS, while GS also provides clear scans about what he is saying.
It's on you on which side you are on, but many here are automatically against GS, because of their ego and want to see him being owned.

Even if PF has such a big role, LT might be above PF, if TOAA chose it that way.
He gave PF such job and LT a different job.
It seems that Living Tribunal and Phoenix Force are TOAA greatest servants.

Hands down the most mature and rational post in this thread.

Well done Xp 👆

So the argument is then that the Phoenix force is another name for the energies of the big bang. That any "firebird" we see is a manifestation of the representation of the energies of the Phoenix force Aka big bang energies. That this entire time we have referred to the Phoenix force as an entity for which it can be ranked against living tribunal....

The energies of the big bang are also called the power primordial... Which means that it is the same as the Phoenix force. The manifestations or avatars of the Phoenix force are abstract representations of a concept, just like eternity represents time, infinity space, death death and oblivion the void...

As you've essentially verified is that in 616, the avatar for the energies of creation is the Phoenix force. That this firebird/Phoenix represents the energies called the Phoenix force/big bang energies/ power primordial.

And as since since the elders and primordial beings all use the same wineries you cannot verify that Rachel grey or Jean grey 616 versions have full access to the entire Phoenix force because as you've clearly shown no two draw on the same reserves. And yet while the concept of these energies is called the Phoenix (not Phoenix force) to represent the energies of creation, it is not the final word on it.

Jean grey, racket grey, etc all has access to an avatar and not the whole Phoenix force. And we don't know how much power each person has access to. And you've been comparing a energy type rather than an entity against another entity. Good job.

Try and verify the existence of the true Phoenix force without having shown an universal avatar. You can't. Thus each firebird is as valid as any representation of eternity. And that means none of the avatars are muktiversal... But the energies that make up the multiverse... Are muktiversal..

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Take apart my argument then. Dont just post that its rubbish. Why dont you explain instead of whining on the sidelines you sidekick.

This is just debating about comics, grow up and stop taking things personal, looking at your date of birth youre too old for that mess. Get the hell outta here 😂

Prove Phoenix is even above Galactus in a direct confrontation. I mean since your point is we don't know whether the Lt could have defeated the ig then prove the phoenix is above Galactus. Start there.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I don't know what is so hard to understand and when people are mentioning Phoenix Force being blown apart by Xorn, shiar ship,... that it's the full PF, while it's not. It's just a fragment of the whole.
People see firebird and automatically assume it's the full PF.
It's not, it's clear it's only a fragment of it.
I don't why it's repeatedly brought up.

GS provided many scans that we could actually go and say PF is actually TOAA creational power. TOAA chose it that way.
Everything in Marvel you see, is actually from the PF.
In some way, everything is part of it, everything lies in it, because PF surrounds everything.

You say Mr Master is owning GS, while GS also provides clear scans about what he is saying.
It's on you on which side you are on, but many here are automatically against GS, because of their ego and want to see him being owned.

Even if PF has such a big role, LT might be above PF, if TOAA chose it that way.
He gave PF such job and LT a different job.
It seems that Living Tribunal and Phoenix Force are TOAA greatest servants.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Furthermore in that crappy Ultraverse crossover Phoenix avatar was stated to be operating at a reduced capacity within that reality:

Yup. And don't forget they conveniently leave out mentioning the fact that the freaking Silver Surfer WTFPWNED Rune who had the IG. Yet this never counts as a low showing for the IG.

All the Ultraverse crossovers were pure garbage.

@quanchi112

You aren't even half right and your points are all hypocritical as the Phoenix force has never prove itself Galactus level let alone Eternity or higher.

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That's the Phoenix saving Eternity from destruction. For all his power he couldn't stop the "cosmic disease" Bubonicus infected him with. When he was asked who should be called to save him, he specifically said his only hope was the PF.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Prove Phoenix is even above Galactus in a direct confrontation. I mean since your point is we don't know whether the Lt could have defeated the ig then prove the phoenix is above Galactus. Start there.

It was a direct confrontation with Rachel. Rachel defeated him, but the most important was what Galactus said. He said he needs supplies, because he is drained, Phoenix doesn't need it.

And feat from WPOTC puts it above any feat of Galactus.

And if we go even by that:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
“Galactus was transformed by the energies of creation itself. Call it the Big Bang or the Phoenix Force”

Isn't that enough to see that Phoenix Force is above Galactus?

Originally posted by Xplosive
And if go about Classic Beyonder. He was also TOAA creational power of the universe outside of mainstream Marvel Multiverse.
Classic Beyonder was far bigger or more powerful creational power than PF (if today, CB would be second to TOAA), but that was retconned a long time ago.

This. it's not even a debate. PR beyonder was so broken that powering him down required realigning the definition of the entire marvel universe.

I'm on board with Mr. Master- if we accept TOAA as being "the writer", or marvel editorial, everything should be below it, and PR beyonder directly below THAT.

why? simple. When creating the PR beyonder, they defined him as a sentient reality. a reality a quintillion times more vast than the entire marvel universe as a whole, but unified and thinking. The entirety of the marvel universe was "as a drop of water into the ocean" in comparison.

Everything that existed outside of marvel (as recognized by marvel editorial of the 80s, that is) WAS PR beyonder. When beyonder chose to collapse himself down into 3 dimensional form, that realm became simply blank space. nothingness.

As powerful as the infinity gauntlet, phoenix force, living tribunal etc are, none of them have ever been stated or shown to exceed the sum total of all power that exists within the marvel universe and its dimensions.

The beyonder was stated to be exactly this only billions of times over. Every abstract in the heirarchy was helpless to stop him from doing what he wanted to do, including eliminating the concept of death (which he did) and wiping all reality from existence (which he chose not to do.)

Quite frankly it's creation was bad writing and a horrible decision that HAD to be retconned (lest it turn every subsequent feat by anyone else an irrelevant joke), and no one in their right mind is going to make a character that strong ever again.

.

Phoenix Force? pfft.

Apparently the 'Hulk Force' is the strongest.

No lie. Just ask Pak about it. I'm not joking.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Phoenix Force? pfft.

Apparently the 'Hulk Force' is the strongest.

No lie. Just ask Pak about it. I'm not joking.

Originally posted by rotiart
Bruiser was supposed to be beyonder... Stupid autocorrect...

Bruiser would kill the Beyonder. Don't mention him in the same sentence as her. You're close to being Bada-banned from this thread.