Originally posted by Prep-Man
[QUOTE=13138173]Originally posted by tideoftime [B]*No* I am *not* treating him as a mere highly skilled human -- his martial skills are positively supernatural/a power, in and of themselves. And I am fully aware of his range of feats (though the greater number of them that really go uber are Pre-C). However, as a general median, the *specific* powerset that Achilles possesses works quite well against KK's abilities: it isn't simply that A is superstrong, durable, and comparatively fast -- his Grace allows him to avoid been hit/touched by even superfast attacks, via a combination of speed and prescience. KK's martial insight would likely tell him as he fought Achilles that while he (KK) can discern degrees of weakness/best points to attack, his ability to *connect* is going to be impaired, significantly. Val has good showings, for sure, but his median range doesn't include *truly* superhuman durability, but uber-finessed skill. KK is no slouch, by any means, but don't *you* paint him up mhe didnt avoid geo force attacks or dianas. val is much more skilled than either of the 2.
plus val has a similar skill. he can read movements to avoid fighterws like achilles.
(I can't find a Picard Facepalm big enough to place here... much to my frustration...)
You didn't read any of my posts so far in this thread, did you? Diana was able to successfully take down Achilles on three separate occasions due to 2 primary points: 1) she can fly... *fast*... and realized that even with her superspeed, she'd have to use broad grappling attacks to take him... which she did -- something that contextually, even with a flight ring, KK is *not* going to be able to duplicate; and 2) Achilles has a Gladiator-esque "weakness" -- when he is conflicted about his purpose/the validity of his cause, his abilities are dampened (as indicated in later issues of WW), and likewise indicated as part of why Diana was able to beat him as relatively easily as she did. That isn't going to be a concern/issue in a Forum battle. Broad, or sweeping attacks are useful against him, though he easily can avoid multiple machine gun fire while continueing his own attacks... too bad KK doesn't have that as part of his powerset, as such (rapid strikes/blows? Yes. Fast reflexes? Of course. But he can't duplicate the movement of WW, or similar persons, and he doesn't have any proper ranged abilities).
And, by the by, Achilles Grace is a divine ability -- it is quite different in function than Val's abilities. Comparing him to Spiderman w/SS is a more accurate comparison, in that Achilles often avoids attacks he isn't even immediately aware of. It's not the same as Val's ability.
Final point: while KK is most certainly the best MA in DC (barring uber-god manipulations/power), it's misleading and feeding into many fanbois misperceptions concerning WW to place her much below him: Diana is one of the *best* H2H fighters in DC. KK is better, certainly, but that is part of his paranormal ability/"schtick", similar contextually to, say, Iron Fist's abilities (though obviously narratively different).
*****
I have to say, Prep, that I am rather surprised at your stubborness on this issue -- you are normally more reasonable in your balance of feats vs. median performance, when it comes to most of the threads I've seen you post in /create. Is KK a favorite of yours? If so, I was unaware of that. In anycase, I am going to walk away from this conversation, because the level of (perceived on my part, in terms of you, though I mean no offense) intellectual dishonesty is starting to get a little thick. While I just ignore it with Quan on certain issues (Thanos, Thor, WW, and SM), I don't consider you to be like that, so I'm going to just agree to disagree on this thread, smile, shake hands, and go on my way...