Originally posted by Prep-Man
Like they never faced metas before. BP is out of his league, IMO.
Like Panther has never faced MAs before.
Anyway Panther isn't just some mild superhuman, he is a mild superhuman with an incredible degree of combat skill, combat skill that is only a notch below these top tier fighters. It is the combination of these two things that give him the edge. He isn't some bubbling thug like Killer Croc so your point is moot.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
He is compared to someone in Shiva's class. She's walk all over him. Stats are good, but they aren't the be all, end all.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand he is almost Shiva's class to begin with in terms of skill, and then is physical superior on top of it.
Stats + Skill > Skill + 1
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'll take the more skilled opponent over the one with stats. yes.
So I guess you are just deciding to ignore that Panther is an incredibly skilled fighter, who is only slightly less skilled.
How do you decide which character traits you are going to ignore? Is there a process or do you just do it on a whim?
He isn't on Shiva's level, but he is close. Black Panther is one of the most skilled fighters in Marvel, maybe not tier but right at the class ceiling between second tier and first tier. He isn't skilled enough to take the majority form Shiva in equal bodies or without his enhancements, but with the Herb Shaped Herb the combination of his enhanced attributes AND his skill is enough to take the majority from most street level MAs, especially ones without an exotic ability to tilt the scales back in their favour.
Where are Trackz and Deadline.? Those two were on the verge of having an aneurysm when I said Panther isn't quite as skilled as the top tier MA's but was close, and now someone is arguing he isn't even close to that and they are no where to be found.
I've always been under the impression that BP's herb only enhanced him to peak human potential with him not needing to work for it, not making him superhuman enough to take a majority against the highest of the high MA-ers. Perhaps I've been wrong?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Batman's held his own against both BT and Shiva in hand to hand, and with his radar sense Matt should be in a better place to win a stand up exchange than Bruce. If DD can't outright take the majority he will at least make a split decision.Also I would say that Turner is in a similar place as Richard Dragon right now, except while Richard hasn't done anything, Ben has some embarrassing loses. Most of BT good showings are PC.
Still current BP is a liability and team one wins.
Uh, I don't think ABC logic is really going to help your case. Especially with martial artists because they all have varying degrees of plot behind their encounters for writers to close in the skill gaps. Batman being used as the measuring stick falls flat for me because he's never had a straight up confrontation with Shiva without her being mind controlled or plot provoked, and BT has one-shotted Bruce and been easily defeated by Shiva. It's too convoluted. Also... I don't think Daredevil is as good as Bruce to begin with. I just don't.
Originally posted by Konton
I've always been under the impression that BP's herb only enhanced him to peak human potential with him not needing to work for it, not making him superhuman enough to take a majority against the highest of the high MA-ers. Perhaps I've been wrong?Uh, I don't think ABC logic is really going to help your case. Especially with martial artists because they all have varying degrees of plot behind their encounters for writers to close in the skill gaps. Batman being used as the measuring stick falls flat for me because he's never had a straight up confrontation with Shiva without her being mind controlled or plot provoked, and BT has one-shotted Bruce and been easily defeated by Shiva. It's too convoluted. Also... I don't think Daredevil is as good as Bruce to begin with. I just don't.
The Herb enhanced Panther to Captain America level attributes. He is low level superhuman, but not as skilled as the best street level MAs. Basically he is more or less Deathstroke.
Batman's first fight with Shiva was a "straight up confrontation" prior to Robin's interference and the fight was even for three - four pages. Sure Batman speculated she might win eventually, but that wasn't set in stone, and if Shiva had barely edged out Bruce after a long fight that would hardly have been a concrete proof of absolute superiority.
Bruce wasn't prepared for BT the first time they met, and stalemated him the next time (not going to get into Matches Malone). Shiva beat the crappy Bronze Tiger who's history with Richard Dragon and O Sense was retcon'd away to artificially boost Shiva's rep, also he may have been mind controlled / brain washed at the time.
Why don't you think DD is as skilled as Bruce?
Originally posted by Konton
I've always been under the impression that BP's herb only enhanced him to peak human potential with him not needing to work for it, not making him superhuman enough to take a majority against the highest of the high MA-ers. Perhaps I've been wrong?Uh, I don't think ABC logic is really going to help your case. Especially with martial artists because they all have varying degrees of plot behind their encounters for writers to close in the skill gaps. Batman being used as the measuring stick falls flat for me because he's never had a straight up confrontation with Shiva without her being mind controlled or plot provoked, and BT has one-shotted Bruce and been easily defeated by Shiva. It's too convoluted. Also... I don't think Daredevil is as good as Bruce to begin with. I just don't.
I agree. DD is a poor man's Batman. He's good, don't get me wrong, but he isn't on the level of Bruce. He has slightly better stats, but that is it.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I agree. DD is a poor man's Batman. He's good, don't get me wrong, but he isn't on the level of Bruce. He has slightly better stats, but that is it.
Bull. DD is as skilled and strong as Bruce, and as fast and agile as Nightwing. He might even have slightly better skill feats, and he certainly has better pressure points feats.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'd rank Bruce on Cap's level. There are just too many feats to show this. I already said DD has slightly better stats. I think he's slightly stronger, but not in skill. Batman also better at stealth, too.
If Batman was as skilled as Cap, he would more skilled than Shiva... and he isn't.