Kid Buu vs Buuhan

Started by Galan0073 pages

Originally posted by carver9
My mind is kind of clear on this so I'm asking... didn't Vegeta and Goku fight Buuhan before turning into Vegeta and got mud stomped and almost died?
Vegeta and Goku never fought Buuhan individually... Only as Vegito.

Originally posted by carver9
Let's not use Supreme Ki as evidence... he didn't know anything at all about Goku power level.
So you really believe that Toriyama had Elder Kai (one of the most esteemed beings in the entire DBZ universe) speak in hyperbole regarding Goku's inability to defeat Buu? C'mon. srsly

If we can't believe a statement made by the Elder Kai, then we can't believe what -any- character has -ever- said throughout Dragonball as a whole.

Originally posted by carver9
Goku not agreeing with it is a underestimation of his true power level. Goku tends to underestimate himself "a lot"
He didn't underestimate himself a while later when he stated that he could easily defeat Kid Buu at full power. srsly

Originally posted by carver9
but that still doesn't change the fact that Goku never really cut lose as a Super Saiyan 3 until he fought kid Buu.
He -wasn't- going all out vs. Kid Buu. That's the point. Had he been able to reach full power, he could have beaten Kid Buu "in an instant".

Originally posted by carver9
Him not facing Buuhan imo was just a way of presenting Vegito.
What happened on panel > your opinion.

And on panel, Elder Kai stated that Buuhan >> Goku. Goku acknowledged that statement as fact, and opted to use fusion instead (because he -knew- it was the only way to win.)

The only absorption that weakened Kid Buu was when he absorbed Daioshin, the head of the Kais, and that was due to his PURE GOODNESS, which counterbalanced Buu's PURE EVIL.

Carver is trying to say that fusing weakens Buu. Which is why Mystic Gohan went from raping Super Buu, to being toyed with by Buu with Gotenks absorbed. Yeah.

Also, I find it funny that Carver said in another thread on this very forum that hyperbole does not happen in anime... Then said the Elder Kai's words were hyberbole.

This shit is pathetic.

Originally posted by carver9
Naah, I think you got that kind of backwards. Supreme ki stated that the absorption process weakened him more than anything. Then you all have a bad habits of just going by showings vs statements so with that said, kid buu was shown on panel (during a story telling from Ki) destroying a Galaxy. Even though it took years due to his childish attitude of physically being dominate vs just completely ridding the Galaxy right away, it still happened. Then we have kid buu simply going planet to planet finishing them instantly without breaking a sweat. So with that said, using you alls type of debate involving DBZ characters, kid buu is more powerful.

My main point was... it was hinted that Kid Buu was more powerful and to back this up even further, it was stated that the transformation/absorptions weakened his powerlevel.

AFAIK, the only time he got 'weakened' when he absorbed someone was the time Buu absorbed the Grand Supreme Kai, and became Fat Buu.
Every other time Buu has absorbed someone, he's gotten far stronger. Evil Buu absorbing Fat Buu got us Super Buu. Super Buu with a SS3 fusion absorbed was able to punk a form of Gohan that earlier, was punking Super Buu.

Freeza too can 'go from planet to planet finishing them instantly without breaking a sweat'. Doesn't mean he's > Buuhan, or = Kid Buu. Destruction Feats only go so far when looking at a character's level of power.

I can't argue against any of what you all said. Good points. Also, Nemebro... what I said was true, there isn't any Hyperbole in Anime IMO. We have to take from it what we can since it isn't an ongoing series.

Why would Akira have someone say something if it wasn't true?

Originally posted by carver9
I can't argue against any of what you all said. Good points. Also, Nemebro... what I said was true, there isn't any Hyperbole in Anime IMO. We have to take from it what we can since it isn't an ongoing series.

Why would Akira have someone say something if it wasn't true?

Then how is what elder kai said hyperbole... you do know DBZ is an anime right?

Originally posted by yungz22
Then how is what elder kai said hyperbole... you do know DBZ is an anime right?

I already agreed to it.

In my experience, a lot of DBZ fans like to ignore facts in an effort cling to their own preconceived biases. This topic is a great example. People make up all sorts of excuses for why the spirit bomb couldn't have actually done what everyone says it does and gather people's energy (i.e. Gohan's energy, yet still be stated to not be enough to kill Kid Buu). Of course, we need not even look to the spirit bomb. What's really telling are statements made at the end of the arc:

Here's what really clinches the idea that Kid Buu is at very least the strongest unfused Buu: At the end, when the battle is over, Vegeta threatens to kill the Fat Buu. Goku tells him not to do it, but Vegeta insists that it has to be done, demanding to know who will stop Buu in case the Fat Buu ever gets angry again and recreates Kid Buu. What does Goku say? That'll Gotenks will take care of it? That Gohan will take care of it? No. He says that they'll train hard and be ready next time. If Kid Buu were somehow weaker than Super Buu, Vegeta would never have asked that question and Goku would never have answered in the fashion that he answered. Obviously, if Gotenks and Gohan are stronger, then there's no need to train since they can take care of it.

10 years later, Goku goes to the World Tournament. Why does he go? To fight Gohan? No. To fight Gotenks? No. He goes to fight the reincarnation of Kid Buu and even tells Hercule that there's a chance he might lose. This is a Goku with 10 years of additional training still thinking Kid Buu has what it takes to beat him (killing any suggestion that Goku could have won fair and square 10 years ago).

Take these two facts into account and Kid Buu is clearly stronger than Super Buu. Keep in mind that these facts are brought up AFTER the battle, thus using notes and observations made PRIOR to the battle is fallacious (i.e. Goku thinking he could kill Buu were he to charge up enough ki in SSJ3). It's pretty much the equivalent to using Vegeta's boasts and declarations prior to actually fighting Perfect Cell as proof that Cell Saga Vegeta > Perfect Cell. Hell, by that sort of logic, Frieza saga Vegeta > Final Form Frieza since Vegeta states he could win. All facts must be taken into account when determining who is stronger than who.

I'd also wager than he's stronger than Buuhan as well, but that boils down to him pushing back a universal spirit bomb and people seem to like making up facts as far as that's concerned.

Originally posted by BloodRawEngine
Kid Buu is among the weakest, and is possibly only above Fat Buu. The most factual sources (such as the manga and original JP recorded anime) state Kid Buu as simply being the most violent form because he's a mindless, unstable killing machine. All sources regarding Kid Buu as being anywhere close to even base form Super Buu are localization errors in the anime. All of Buu's strongest forms are when he was in his Super Buu form(s).
This is pretty faulty logic by the way. On panel, Kid Buu has shown himself to be no more violent than any other Buu. He toyed with EVERYBODY, including Hercule. Localizaation errors my behind. Read the manga. Take ALL the facts into account, not just the ones you like. Look to Kid Buu pushing back a universal spirit bomb. Look to Goku saying they'd all need to train to be ready for Kid Buu in case he ever comes back, look to Goku having doubts over whether he could beat the reincarnation of Kid Buu 10 years later. Nope, it's pretty obvious that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu.

Although Super Boo has repeatedly proven himself as the strongest of the bunch, i also found it odd that the only difference between Super Boo and Fat Boo is the (seemingly) the level of influence that the Grand Kai has over him...

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
In my experience, a lot of DBZ fans like to ignore facts in an effort cling to their own preconceived biases. This topic is a great example. People make up all sorts of excuses for why the spirit bomb couldn't have actually done what everyone says it does and gather people's energy (i.e. Gohan's energy, yet still be stated to not be enough to kill Kid Buu). Of course, we need not even look to the spirit bomb. What's really telling are statements made at the end of the arc:

Here's what really clinches the idea that Kid Buu is at very least the strongest unfused Buu: At the end, when the battle is over, Vegeta threatens to kill the Fat Buu. Goku tells him not to do it, but Vegeta insists that it has to be done, demanding to know who will stop Buu in case the Fat Buu ever gets angry again and recreates Kid Buu. What does Goku say? That'll Gotenks will take care of it? That Gohan will take care of it? No. He says that they'll train hard and be ready next time. If Kid Buu were somehow weaker than Super Buu, Vegeta would never have asked that question and Goku would never have answered in the fashion that he answered. Obviously, if Gotenks and Gohan are stronger, then there's no need to train since they can take care of it.

10 years later, Goku goes to the World Tournament. Why does he go? To fight Gohan? No. To fight Gotenks? No. He goes to fight the reincarnation of Kid Buu and even tells Hercule that there's a chance he might lose. This is a Goku with 10 years of additional training still thinking Kid Buu has what it takes to beat him (killing any suggestion that Goku could have won fair and square 10 years ago).

Take these two facts into account and Kid Buu is clearly stronger than Super Buu. Keep in mind that these facts are brought up AFTER the battle, thus using notes and observations made PRIOR to the battle is fallacious (i.e. Goku thinking he could kill Buu were he to charge up enough ki in SSJ3). It's pretty much the equivalent to using Vegeta's boasts and declarations prior to actually fighting Perfect Cell as proof that Cell Saga Vegeta > Perfect Cell. Hell, by that sort of logic, Frieza saga Vegeta > Final Form Frieza since Vegeta states he could win. All facts must be taken into account when determining who is stronger than who.

I'd also wager than he's stronger than Buuhan as well, but that boils down to him pushing back a universal spirit bomb and people seem to like making up facts as far as that's concerned.

You're taking all of these feats/statements out of context.

1. Vegeta was scared about Kid Buu returning because Kid Buu could appear while everyone was gone or something, and he would blow up Earth without a second's hesitation. And he could teleport to Namek and blow it up. Then they'd be phucked. But Goku wasn't worried, because he's so used to relying on the Dragon Balls. Even when it was just Frieza coming back, we saw how scary that was. Not because of how dangerous he is, but because of the POTENTIAL danger he represents. And Kid Buu is thousands of times stronger and more dangerous than Frieza.

2. Uub was not as powerful as Kid Buu. He was his reincarnation, that's all. Just because Naruto was Asura's reincarnation, doesn't make him as strong as Asura. That makes no sense. And Kid Buu was billions of years old. Uub had only been around for like 10 at the most. Who knows how strong Uub was, but Goku was in no way, shape or form taking it seriously against Uub. And that implies that his base form couldn't defeat his DBZ SSJ3 form. Even now in Super, base Goku would murderstomp his SSJ3 DBZ incarnation. So those "showings" are in no way definite.

3. Take EVERY OTHER SHOWING FROM THE ARC INTO ACCOUNT, and it's clear that Super Buu is MUCH stronger than Kid Buu. And I'm talking base Super Buu. The first showing that proves this is Super Gotenks vs Super Buu. Post ROSAT Super Gotenks was roughly equal to SSJ3 Goku, if not even more powerful than him. Gotenks only became able to fight on par with Super Buu after going SSJ3. Meaning that Super Buu was AT LEAST 8 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, because SSJ2 is a 2X boost to SSJ1 and SSJ3 is a 4X boost to SSJ2. Making SSJ3 an 8X boost to SSJ1. And Goku got no noticeable zenkai boosts during the entire Buu saga, because he was dead for the majority of it. Then, Buuhan would have been around 3X stronger than Super Buu, making him anywhere from 16-24X stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

This is supported throughout the entire arc. Not only did Vegeta say that Kid Buu was EXPLICITLY weaker than Super Buu, but Goku was confident enough to fight Kid Buu, whereas he was so desperate against Buuhan that he even considered fusing with Hercule or Dende. And Vegeta and Goku even stated that they wouldn't be able to beat base Super Buu even if they fought him together, which is why Vegeta ripped out fat Buu as well.

Buuhan >>> Super Buu >>> SSJ3 Goku >= Kid Buu.

4. Yeah, Kid Buu pushed back a universal spirit bomb. But that was only because Goku was so weakened that he couldn't control it. As soon as his ki was restored, he was able to overwhelm Buu's control of it just as a SSJ1. Are you saying that SSJ1 Goku was stronger than kid Buu, with his ki restored? Because that's the only way that makes sense, going by your logic.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You're taking all of these feats/statements out of context.

1. Vegeta was scared about Kid Buu returning because Kid Buu could appear while everyone was gone or something, and he would blow up Earth without a second's hesitation. And he could teleport to Namek and blow it up. Then they'd be phucked. But Goku wasn't worried, because he's so used to relying on the Dragon Balls. Even when it was just Frieza coming back, we saw how scary that was. Not because of how dangerous he is, but because of the POTENTIAL danger he represents. And Kid Buu is thousands of times stronger and more dangerous than Frieza.

There's nothing to indicate that this was the reason Vegeta was scared and plenty to indicate that it wasn't. By that logic, Goku's solution (train hard so they'll all be ready) is meaningless as Fat Buu can get angry any time, bring Kid Buu back and destroy the planet without a moment notice regardless of whether everyone trains. By saying they need to train, he's acknowledging that none of them are strong enough to deal with Kid Buu outright at that time.


2. Uub was not as powerful as Kid Buu. He was his reincarnation, that's all. Just because Naruto was Asura's reincarnation, doesn't make him as strong as Asura. That makes no sense. And Kid Buu was billions of years old. Uub had only been around for like 10 at the most. Who knows how strong Uub was, but Goku was in no way, shape or form taking it seriously against Uub. And that implies that his base form couldn't defeat his DBZ SSJ3 form. Even now in Super, base Goku would murderstomp his SSJ3 DBZ incarnation. So those "showings" are in no way definite.
Uub was not as powerful as Kid Buu as a result of not knowing how to use ki or any of his other powers (which is what Goku notes during the fight and why he goes to train him), but you're missing the point. Goku came into the fight with the impression that he was going to fight the equivalent to Kid Buu. With that mindset, he tells Hercule that he might not make it to the final round in order to "let Hercule win." He tells Vegeta that this unknown fighter is actually going to be a challenge despite being an earthling.

All of this is said despite Goku having trained the last 10 years, thus dispelling any notion that Goku could have won 10 years ago. That's what the Super Buu > Kid Buu arguments are premised upon. That Goku acknowledge being weaker than Super Buu, but thought he could beat Kid Buu, therefore making Super Buu stronger. Only Goku changes his mind about Kid Buu, realizing that he had greatly underestimated him.

3. Take EVERY OTHER SHOWING FROM THE ARC INTO ACCOUNT, and it's clear that Super Buu is MUCH stronger than Kid Buu. And I'm talking base Super Buu. The first showing that proves this is Super Gotenks vs Super Buu. Post ROSAT Super Gotenks was roughly equal to SSJ3 Goku, if not even more powerful than him. Gotenks only became able to fight on par with Super Buu after going SSJ3. Meaning that Super Buu was AT LEAST 8 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, because SSJ2 is a 2X boost to SSJ1 and SSJ3 is a 4X boost to SSJ2. Making SSJ3 an 8X boost to SSJ1. And Goku got no noticeable zenkai boosts during the entire Buu saga, because he was dead for the majority of it. Then, Buuhan would have been around 3X stronger than Super Buu, making him anywhere from 16-24X stronger than SSJ3 Goku.
We are taking every showing and statement in the arc into account. Everything you said is well and good (numbers aside), except the entire idea of Kid Buu being weaker clinches on Goku thinking he can win against Kid Buu. Then, for one reason or another, you seem to disregard every observation, showing and statement provided after the beginning of the fight. It's like concluding that Cell is weaker than Cell Saga Vegeta because Android 16 said that his sensors indicated that Vegeta was stronger. Obviously, the remainder of the arc proves otherwise. So too is the case with Kid Buu. Mid-fight, you've got Goku realizing that Kid Buu is dragging the fight out on purpose and is simply having fun (which ends up going as far as Kid Buu even toying with Hercule).

Also, lets refrain from using any numbers (i.e. SSJ3 = 8x boost to SSJ1). Not only are they not relevant, but it's just guesswork. Power levels and base multipliers stopped have any significance a long long time ago.

This is supported throughout the entire arc. Not only did Vegeta say that Kid Buu was EXPLICITLY weaker than Super Buu, but Goku was confident enough to fight Kid Buu, whereas he was so desperate against Buuhan that he even considered fusing with Hercule or Dende. And Vegeta and Goku even stated that they wouldn't be able to beat base Super Buu even if they fought him together, which is why Vegeta ripped out fat Buu as well.
Except I have my copy of the Viz translation with me at hand. Where in the last manga volume does Vegeta "explicitly" say that Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu? Goku and Vegeta comment on how puny he is. Vegeta also removed the fat buu from Super Buu with the impression that it would make him weaker. This is then contradicted as both Goku and Vegeta observe that Buu's ki actually rises as a result of removing Fat Buu.

4. Yeah, Kid Buu pushed back a universal spirit bomb. But that was only because Goku was so weakened that he couldn't control it. As soon as his ki was restored, he was able to overwhelm Buu's control of it just as a SSJ1. Are you saying that SSJ1 Goku was stronger than kid Buu, with his ki restored? Because that's the only way that makes sense, going by your logic.
Goku controlled the spirit bomb just fine against a 50% Frieza and he explicitly said he was out of ki then. In this case, Kid Buu was simply so strong that he needed his ki in order to finish the job.

The amount of ki, in the spirit bomb, however, is very relevant. After receiving ki from Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks and variety of other characters, it's explicitly noted that this ki isn't enough, hence why they end up needing Hercule to beg the entire planet for their ki. If we are to follow your logic, that amount of ki ought to have been sufficient (since it included Mystic Gohan's), Goku could have thrown it then and we could've cut straight to the scenes with the dragon restoring his ki back to normal levels.

Buuhan>Buutenks>Super Buu>Kid Buu>Fat Buu

What about Ultra Buu? 😛

Kid Buu wins.

Originally posted by carver9
Kid Buu wins.

...

facepalm
Christ, carver.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Here's what really clinches the idea that Kid Buu is at very least the strongest unfused Buu: At the end, when the battle is over, Vegeta threatens to kill the Fat Buu. Goku tells him not to do it, but Vegeta insists that it has to be done, demanding to know who will stop Buu in case the Fat Buu ever gets angry again and recreates Kid Buu. What does Goku say? That'll Gotenks will take care of it? That Gohan will take care of it? No. He says that they'll train hard and be ready next time. If Kid Buu were somehow weaker than Super Buu, Vegeta would never have asked that question and Goku would never have answered in the fashion that he answered. Obviously, if Gotenks and Gohan are stronger, then there's no need to train since they can take care of it.

10 years later, Goku goes to the World Tournament. Why does he go? To fight Gohan? No. To fight Gotenks? No. He goes to fight the reincarnation of Kid Buu and even tells Hercule that there's a chance he might lose. This is a Goku with 10 years of additional training still thinking Kid Buu has what it takes to beat him (killing any suggestion that Goku could have won fair and square 10 years ago).

Goku also told Piccolo that he couldn't have beaten Fat Boo as a SSJ3 after they fought. It was only much later in the arc that we learned he was lying/feigning weakness, in order to give the new generation a chance to step up as protectors of the earth. Truth be told, he could have destroyed Fat Boo easily. Point being: the comments you mentioned don't mean much in the way of legitimately trying to power-scale. Especially with the evidence we do have, which heavily implies that Super Boo > Pure Boo.

a.) After Boohan reverted back into Super Boo, Goku outright stated that Super Boo was still FAR more powerful than he or Vegeta--to the point that he thought it would be suicide for them to even TRY and fight him.

b.) Both Goku and Vegeta were confident that Goku would be able to obliterate Pure Boo rather easily IF he fully powered up as a SSJ3(which, unfortunately, he wasn't able to do at the time.) This still heavily alludes to Super Boo's superiority over Pure Boo.

c.) Even though he was operating at far less than full power as SSJ3, Goku was still able to have an extended battle with Pure Boo. This implies their powers were ~ equal initially... Which, again, heavily alludes to Super Boo's superiority over Pure Boo.

To me, those facts hold more weight than nonchalant comments made after the battle was over. After all, the above statements/feats were made after the 'new generation' had already been beaten(or killed), and Goku was the only thing standing between Boo and the destruction of the universe. IOW, he no longer had a reason to lie about his power.

That said, even if we assume that Oob went into the Tournament with the exact same power as Pure Boo, he was still human. As such, he lacked Boo's haxx magical damage soak/regen... Which is the primary factor that made Boo such a threat to Goku in the first place. Remove that, and Boo-era Goku should defeat him quite easily... If we allow an additional 10 years for Goku to train AND the potential for him to completely power-up as SSJ3, however, Goku would logically steamroll a fully-realized Oob without much effort.

In all likelihood, Goku was just hyped to fight a Boo-level opponent, because no other being with that type of power was still interested in fighting, and/or they just weren't powerful enough to challenge him...
-Goten/Trunks stopped training for the most part, thus the power of Gotenks would have plummeted as a result.
-Gohan stopped training all together, and became a scholar.
-Vegeta's power never remotely rivaled Goku's.

Oob was his best bet for a decent fight in that era, and that got him excited. 👆

From reading this analysis, which correlates with "goku is always right" I would have to say I'm convinced kid buu is the strongest and his absorptions don't always translate with him getting stronger because they're not cell absorptions but like mixing shit with playdo. Or something similar.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
In my experience, a lot of DBZ fans like to ignore facts in an effort cling to their own preconceived biases. This topic is a great example. People make up all sorts of excuses for why the spirit bomb couldn't have actually done what everyone says it does and gather people's energy (i.e. Gohan's energy, yet still be stated to not be enough to kill Kid Buu). Of course, we need not even look to the spirit bomb. What's really telling are statements made at the end of the arc:

Here's what really clinches the idea that Kid Buu is at very least the strongest unfused Buu: At the end, when the battle is over, Vegeta threatens to kill the Fat Buu. Goku tells him not to do it, but Vegeta insists that it has to be done, demanding to know who will stop Buu in case the Fat Buu ever gets angry again and recreates Kid Buu. What does Goku say? That'll Gotenks will take care of it? That Gohan will take care of it? No. He says that they'll train hard and be ready next time. If Kid Buu were somehow weaker than Super Buu, Vegeta would never have asked that question and Goku would never have answered in the fashion that he answered. Obviously, if Gotenks and Gohan are stronger, then there's no need to train since they can take care of it.

10 years later, Goku goes to the World Tournament. Why does he go? To fight Gohan? No. To fight Gotenks? No. He goes to fight the reincarnation of Kid Buu and even tells Hercule that there's a chance he might lose. This is a Goku with 10 years of additional training still thinking Kid Buu has what it takes to beat him (killing any suggestion that Goku could have won fair and square 10 years ago).

Take these two facts into account and Kid Buu is clearly stronger than Super Buu. Keep in mind that these facts are brought up AFTER the battle, thus using notes and observations made PRIOR to the battle is fallacious (i.e. Goku thinking he could kill Buu were he to charge up enough ki in SSJ3). It's pretty much the equivalent to using Vegeta's boasts and declarations prior to actually fighting Perfect Cell as proof that Cell Saga Vegeta > Perfect Cell. Hell, by that sort of logic, Frieza saga Vegeta > Final Form Frieza since Vegeta states he could win. All facts must be taken into account when determining who is stronger than who.

I'd also wager than he's stronger than Buuhan as well, but that boils down to him pushing back a universal spirit bomb and people seem to like making up facts as far as that's concerned.

So Bootenks wasn't stronger than Super Boo..? Boohan wasn't stronger than Bootenks..?

If absorbing others just neutered/weakened Boo, why do you think he opted to absorb others in the first place?

Because buu was mental. His pure form was pure kill and had power level according to that.

Still, an argument can be made for Kid Boo > Base Super Boo, no? After all, isn't the only difference between them that Super Boo is carrying a burden?

If I'm missing something, I'd appreciate someone clarifying.