Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I know full well people make of themselves what they want.
Not always. Many people, especially in recent years and especially in the technology sector have gotten themselves a good education only to see their job outsourced to another country. It's a fact that only the medical field is growing now in this country, most other industries in the US are shrinking, even for the highly skilled. I've owned two businesses in the past, a resteraunt which I sold because I got tired of working 70-80 hours a week, and an E-Commerce business which I shut down because Ebay and Amazon wanted all the money even though I was doing all the work. Even so, I'm better off than most, I'm 48 and looking to retire in about 2 years, the only thing I worry about is healthcare because if you get sick you can lose everything...even if you have money.
We need leaders in this country who actually care about the middle class and not just the rich, I am hyper cynical we will ever see that though.
Hello again.
Originally posted by The Dark CloudHate to tell you but to have a job is to put your future in someone else's hands. It's pretty much impossible to have true freedom on a job alone (having a small business is better, but the system stilll relies on you, so for most people it is still a job). The taxes don't benefit it, the time doesn't benefit it, and if someone gets tired of you, then you are gone. Demand creates jobs, jobs don't create demand. Unfortunately the industrial age of what we call a "job" is pretty much over. The notion of a job taking care of you for life after you're retired as well is over. It's too expensive. Even mega companies can't afford it. Look a what happened to GM. The Unions (who were once about the small guy) became greedy and sucked companies dry, which is why they hate them. Workers have become too expensive, and what's worse, most don't really want to work. The work ethic here is terrible compared to other places. We're no longer competing with just ourselves or the people in our classrooms or jobs, we're competing with the world. Things are going global. People who work harder for less. On your side imagine buying a better car for less, you would do it too right?
Not always. Many people, especially in recent years and especially in the technology sector have gotten themselves a good education only to see their job outsourced to another country. It's a fact that only the medical field is growing now in this country, most other industries in the US are shrinking, even for the highly skilled. I've owned two businesses in the past, a resteraunt which I sold because I got tired of working 70-80 hours a week, and an E-Commerce business which I shut down because Ebay and Amazon wanted all the money even though I was doing all the work. Even so, I'm better off than most, I'm 48 and looking to retire in about 2 years, the only thing I worry about is healthcare because if you get sick you can lose everything...even if you have money.We need leaders in this country who actually care about the middle class and not just the rich, I am hyper cynical we will ever see that though.
The system has created too many people who are dependent on the system and not enough risk takers, people expect the job, government, etc. To take care of them. Social Security is a scam and it's reaching it's end, so people are going to have to educate themselves. I prefer it than someone taking my money and giving it to someone who doesn't want to work. The work ethic here is terrible too.
This society is going to the people who come up with idea and utilize them, or take a step in another direction. The people who have the mindset to make more money will make it, whether they have it or lose it. The ones with the mindset will lose it even if they get some suddenly, i.e lottery winners and young mega stars.
I think the country should benefit everyone. Not just the lower, or the middle, or the upper, but everyone, and the beginning of that comes with people being responsible for themselves more.
But eh, what do I know.
You raise some valid points but how are small businesses supposed to compete with mega corporations like Wal Mart? The only reason manufacturing isn't viable in this country anymore is because of "free trade". It should be far more difficult to offshore jobs. You are partially right about the unions as well, to a point, some of the blame has to lie in the outragous pay of the top few guys of said corporations like GM. A few years ago when Ford was losing money and it's stock was tanking they still managed to pay the chairman a $200 million bonus alone...where's the logic in that? We have fostered a culture where the super rich take care of each other, not the companies they are running. Often CEO's are board members of multiple companies....each others companies.
As for the work ethic...many workers don't give a crap because they rightly percieve their employer doesn't give a crap about them.
You're right, the system should favor everybody...but it doesn't, right now it favors only the wealthy, and it's getting worse.
Like I said, I'm close to an early retirement, years of good investing, owning one really successful (though life sucking) business helped. I'll be OK. I do have concern about many of my fellow countrymen, especially the under 30 somethings. The future is going to be very hard for most of them.
Originally posted by The Dark CloudThat's the nature of business though, a large corporation isn't evil for being large, the point of coming to America is that anybody can do anyhting they want. Besides having large businesses in certain areas allow lower costs as less people are competing for those materials and they buy in more bulk. The best way to compete against Wal Mart is not to "compete" against it in the same field. My business has competitors who do work really cheap and it's a really overcrowded market. So I sell on quality and service and charge higher. So I find my own field.
You raise some valid points but how are small businesses supposed to compete with mega corporations like Wal Mart? The only reason manufacturing isn't viable in this country anymore is because of "free trade". It should be far more difficult to offshore jobs. You are partially right about the unions as well, to a point, some of the blame has to lie in the outragous pay of the top few guys of said corporations like GM. A few years ago when Ford was losing money and it's stock was tanking they still managed to pay the chairman a $200 million bonus alone...where's the logic in that? We have fostered a culture where the super rich take care of each other, not the companies they are running. Often CEO's are board members of multiple companies....each others companies.As for the work ethic...many workers don't give a crap because they rightly percieve their employer doesn't give a crap about them.
You're right, the system should favor everybody...but it doesn't, right now it favors only the wealthy, and it's getting worse.
Like I said, I'm close to an early retirement, years of good investing, owning one really successful (though life sucking) business helped. I'll be OK. I do have concern about many of my fellow countrymen, especially the under 30 somethings. The future is going to be very hard for most of them.
Because this is the information age, jobs have since left the idea of the industrial age. "Go to school and get a job to take care of you for life." Well competing with the world now, businesses can't afford half of those things, and the government can't afford things they promise either, like Social Security. Like I said earlier the system has made too many people reliant on the system and too risk averse, and this isn't a market for people looking for a job to take care of them. People are living longer now and have more needs.
Bonuses are tricky, with the clauses they work with. However that is a bad decision on their behalf. But it is far more expensive to overpay employees or give them jobs they don't need. Then there are problems with the middle class and lower. Why should my money go to people who don't want to work and receive a check for doing nothing, That's a problem on its own. Or to people who have too many kids they can't handle?
In terms of money and things like that, people tend to forget America was built off of protest of taxes, and when they needed money, guess who they turned to? The wealthy. They got the idea of taxes across for the war by telling everyone to "tax the rich and punish them" so having something against people with money is nothing new. People with money end up paying half of their money with taxes, and it's only the business owners and investors who have the best chance of making the most money because they have advantages in taxes. That's for the fact they create jobs and housing for people. So they play their role, as does the middle class in driving the economy.
As for work ethic. It's terrible. Americans have become too self entitled and lazy. Even if you weren't crazy about your job, you did it because you were getting paid. Some bosses care more about their employees more than others (and they better take care of their employees and customers as well) but most people really want to be paid more and more to do less and less. When you have unions sucking up all of the money, people can see why hiring work over seas or hiring illegals is a better choice (although hiring illegals *is* illegal). They work harder and for less. They were what America was long ago before it got lazy and self entitled.
Yea, it's going to be rough for a while. Baby boomers had it great, while those retiring in the next few years are really going to feel it. It's opportunity in everything but one must be able to find it. Unfortunately this risk adverse society is going to have a hard time after being trained to be taken care of.
When all of the wealth is going to the top (and it is), something is wrong. Where is the sense of national identity in this new "global" economy? The wealthy...especially the super wealthy, should be taxed and subsidize others because they benefit the most from the system being the way it is. It worked very well doing that for decades. If things continue as they are even the rich will start to suffer because there will be no middle class to buy their products. And you are wrong about the overall work ethic. There are many dedicated hard working Americans, but the business world has ****ed them over. You must be dealing with teenagers...or people making minimum wage. It isn't the litte guy who feels entitled, it's the fat cat prick at the top who already has everything...and everything still isn't enough.
Hey again. 🙂
Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
When all of the wealth is going to the top (and it is), something is wrong. Where is the sense of national identity in this new "global" economy? The wealthy...especially the super wealthy, should be taxed and subsidize others because they benefit the most from the system being the way it is. It worked very well doing that for decades. If things continue as they are even the rich will start to suffer because there will be no middle class to buy their products. And you are wrong about the overall work ethic. There are many dedicated hard working Americans, but the business world has ****ed them over. You must be dealing with teenagers...or people making minimum wage. It isn't the litte guy who feels entitled, it's the fat cat prick at the top who already has everything...and everything still isn't enough.
The concept of anybody "owing" someone money just because they have more of it is ridiculous. Why should I be punished simply because I worked harder and smarter to get what I have? I don't know about these people you're talking about, but I had nothing and grew up in one of the poorest states in the US. The people I know with nothing still play victim and blame the entire world for them not having anything when it is up to them to get what they want (and they still don't want to do anything). I'm not responsible for someone who chooses to lay around and crank out kids, and I know numerous people personally who do this. Those people should be held responsible too. Nobody should be taxed 2 and 3 times for the same thing, like inheritance tax. Overdoing taxes will only drive those with money to move their assets to other places with better taxes. America grew so fast because its low tax rate at the time was appealing to entrepreneurs who started business and created jobs "something the system relies on and where the government makes a huge amount of its tax revenue".
The highest up has always been taxed the highest and has been pushed to tax the highest, the smartest ones find loopholes to reduce their taxes and it goes elsewhere, but as far as the system (which is why there is a middle class in the firstplace) goes, it is changing. The things that made a middle class the middle clase (getting a degree (which is becoming useless, although it helped create one), getting a house (which is at a low point as most had no business doing so, and letting a job take care of them (which is too expensive), is really a system of itself. People should have been tought to take care of themselves.
I'm not wrong about the work ethic, it's horrible. Yes teenagers tend to have it, but the people who work much harder are foreigners, even for a low wage. People want more and more to do less and less. Whether it is at a crappy job where someone doesn't want to do anything, or it is someone at a "good" job who just lays behind a computer.
If someone made their money honestly, gives (which I encourage everyone to do (which the middle class does the least of overall) and works with their money intelligently they can have what they want. People have way too many opportunities to do what they want in particular (especially in America), especially with technology to do what they want. Most just want everything right away and don't want to do it correctly. There are people who become wealthy before hitting 20 while most are hoping to retire with some decent money. Some people keep trying to do better things with the same methods in a changing time. It just won't work.
Everybody played their part in this, rich, middle, and poor. No one party is guilty and it will take efforts from all sides to fix thing.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Thanks for helping me see the light.Actually speaking of taxes. They should be lower anyways, why should any class of people pay more to have it go right to the government who mismanages it anyways?
I'm done with this discussion. We aren't going to change each others minds so why waste time continuing this? You have the typical Libertarian attitude that "It's all about meeee, I care only about meeee."
everyone is aware that the social security rhetoric the right wing throws around these days is equivalent to the anti-communist rhetoric of yesterday?
keep everyone scared, America is doomed, etc etc etc.
Social security is set for many years, on average over a decade, and thats if they collected no more money at all.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
But eh, what do I know.
something that isn't economics?
Libertarian, right wing, left wing, none of that matters to me. I believe what I believe, and putting all people in a mold is really not a beneficial thing to do for any argument or any reality. Threads like this trend socialist though.
Originally posted by The Dark CloudYou're right about that, I wasn't trying to change your mind, but more or less speak my side. Blaxican was right, you have the typical mindset of "Whoever has wealth is making it by taking advantage of other people. People owe me/us and should take care of me/us."
I'm done with this discussion. We aren't going to change each others minds so why waste time continuing this? You have the typical Libertarian attitude that "It's all about meeee, I care only about meeee."
A few quick things about myself that I thought I might have made clear. I'm all for giving, I have a separate account that exists solely for doing so. Tithes, offerings, donations, charities, etc. I feel it's everyone's job to give back regardless of income as it helps you grow anyways. I like to also teach people and train them how to do more with themselves for those who wish to move ahead. I have an independent and harsh mindset. If I do poorly then I know the blame ultimately falls back on me. Not my parents, not the world, not God, myself. This entitlement mentality is annoying. I don't believe in wasting my time trying to help someone who won't help themself?
Oh and I'm not speaking on just ideals. I've hired the people who have said the same thing you say, "The world is unfair, it's someone else's fault I'm in this position, etc. Then sure enough they don't show up on time, or at all, and they don't do anything, they expect a handout. Hence why I know what I say is true. I can say the same thing about loans and other things. The same people who were broke, kept themselves like that. Instead of paying me back, they went and gambled. Friends of mine who don't like to work, have parents who blow all of their money too, and then say its the world fault they are in their situation at all. Not the fact that instead of paying the heating bill, they bought a car, or a tv, or some other junk. I've also mentored to people who were in and out of juvenille detention on their way to something worse. You can guess how that went, even the family said I was wasting my time.
Charity and welfare aren't the same thing. One is help until the person recovers, and the other is something that makes people feel entitled to what they have. I've seen both ends of the spectrum and I know how drastically different the mentality is.
That said, everybody plays a part, and it isn't just one person's job to fix it, not even the president.
Originally posted by inimalist
everyone is aware that the social security rhetoric the right wing throws around these days is equivalent to the anti-communist rhetoric of yesterday?keep everyone scared, America is doomed, etc etc etc.
Social security is set for many years, on average over a decade, and thats if they collected no more money at all.
something that isn't economics?
Social Security is a ponzi scheme, although I'm not worried about it. I fund my own future. America *is* in a tough time, but I don't by the doom and gloom speech. I've grown and increased more than ever.
Now. America is changing with the rest of the world, we are in an information age instead of an industrial one, and things are changing at a faster rate. Now more than ever people have the opportunities to do what they want, but using methods that may have worked when your grandparents were growing up may not have the same impact. Doesn't mean it's bad, it just means it's changing.
I embrace change. I also like knowing lots of information on lots of things, hence I see opportunities relatively quickly.
How are things where you're at?
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
How are things where you're at?
you mean Canada?
our economy is stronger than yours, growing faster (I think atm we have less unemployment than you, which isn't normally the case), we have a higher standard of living than you, or education and health care systems are better and cheaper than yours, our banks didn't need and in fact refused a government bailout (there are numerous articles that describe our banks as the envy of the world), despite the fact that we artifically lower the value of our currency ours is worth more than yours (this actually hurts our economy), we have a better record of human rights, we are involved in less wars, we outrank you in nearly every international ranking system (in fact, we are generally near the top), gays freely get married, weed is "defacto" decriminalized... oh, and we have more sex than you guys do too
... I did a huge post about this a while ago that I thought was really funny, those are only the ones off the top of my head, and of course, its more a tongue and cheek way of saying, "geez, look at how terrible a modestly higher tax rate is", almost more as an attempt at expressing what could be possible with the amount of wealth in your nation. But I suspect sharing is at odds with self sufficency?
Originally posted by inimalist
you mean Canada?our economy is stronger than yours, growing faster (I think atm we have less unemployment than you, which isn't normally the case), we have a higher standard of living than you, or education and health care systems are better and cheaper than yours, our banks didn't need and in fact refused a government bailout (there are numerous articles that describe our banks as the envy of the world), despite the fact that we artifically lower the value of our currency ours is worth more than yours (this actually hurts our economy), we have a better record of human rights, we are involved in less wars, we outrank you in nearly every international ranking system (in fact, we are generally near the top), gays freely get married, weed is "defacto" decriminalized... oh, and we have more sex than you guys do too
... I did a huge post about this a while ago that I thought was really funny, those are only the ones off the top of my head, and of course, its more a tongue and cheek way of saying, "geez, look at how terrible a modestly higher tax rate is", almost more as an attempt at expressing what could be possible with the amount of wealth in your nation. But I suspect sharing is at odds with self sufficency?
Nah, I don't mind. It's actually a whole cycle of problems. You can't expect people to manage their money well if the governemnt doesn't either. When taxes drop, their revenues increase and they go spending like a kid in a candy store. I'm looking to traveling soon.
Every country has its rough points though, we are no exception.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Nah, I don't mind. It's actually a whole cycle of problems. You can't expect people to manage their money well if the governemnt doesn't either. When taxes drop, their revenues increase and they go spending like a kid in a candy store. I'm looking to traveling soon.Every country has its rough points though, we are no exception.
actually, I agree with that entirely
Originally posted by inimalistI try to see where both sides are coming from, although in discussions like these I'm in the minority by default. Ah well, I've seen the results of what I'm saying. I want things to be better for everyone, but no one man can change another man's mind, much less a nation's by themselves.
actually, I agree with that entirely
Here if the government has extra money left over, they do budget cuts, which makes sectors of government want to spend it faster to have more money. It's really a big problem.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I try to see where both sides are coming from, although in discussions like these I'm in the minority by default. Ah well, I've seen the results of what I'm saying. I want things to be better for everyone, but no one man can change another man's mind, much less a nation's by themselves.Here if the government has extra money left over, they do budget cuts, which makes sectors of government want to spend it faster to have more money. It's really a big problem.
fair enough, I think I might have read too much into what you were saying. There is a lot of talk about major cuts to social security, etc, in the states, sort of thought thats where you were going, my bad