DE Sidious vs

Started by ares8343 pages

Originally posted by Nephthys
The AT-AT feat is ambiguous imo. It looks to me judging from legs in the final panel that he trips it. http://libraries.darkhorse.com/reviews/previews.php?theid=17-422&p=2

Nah. The panel says he presses on the walker and notice how the “head” is seemingly being forced down. Also on the final page the head is more or less blown up, and it appears that the neck is somewhat disjointed. As ESB shows this is not what happens when a walker is simply tripped.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In ROT when he was fighting the technobeasts. Passages describe him as disintegrating technobeasts with waves of his hand. Note that some of those technobeasts were creatures as big as Rancors.

Ok thanks. However, technobeasts aren’t much more than ancient bones, rods and strips of wire.

Originally posted by Nephthys
When he's attacked by the Sith assassins in ROT. He just lets them hit him with their electricised pikes and the orbalisks absorb the electricity.

Ah. Ok.

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]Its pure speculation that he could do it unless we actually have some proof that he could.

And saying that a force power is required to block it isn’t? The simple fact is no such power has ever been stated in any form, hell lightsabers have been said to “absorb” force lightning. And as I pointed out earlier, Luke at least had some success against Palpatine’s lightning.

[Request quote of Kas'im the Magnificent/Bane fight wherein Bane's precog was overwhelmed]
[Request quote of Bane/Zannah fight in RoT caused by Orbalisk intervention, possibly following a failed attempt to create a Holocron]
[Request quote of Luke/Vader/Palpatine fight; specifically RE: claim of Luke's resistance to lightning]
[Request any available scans of action from DE; esp. preliminary Luke/Palpatine fight(s)][CC: Nai]

I'd like to post, but I'm simply not sure any more which side to pick. If you give me the quotes I'll decide for myself, but if you want to argue your respective cases then I'd be happy to arbitrate this thread (that is, if you agree to have me pick a winner).

I’ll be honest; I really don’t want to get in an extended debate. Therefore, I will post the quotes you seek. Unfortunately, I don’t have DE scans. Beware very long post….

“Kas'im sighed. "Then your life ends here." And be leapt in, his weapon moving with far more speed than he had ever shown during their practice sessions.

Parrying the first sequence Bane realized his former Master had always been holding something in reserve . . . just as Bane himself had done in the early stages of his battle against Sirak. Only now was he seeing Kas'im's true ability, and he was barely able to defend himself. Barely, but still able.

His opponent grunted in surprise when Bane warded him off, then stepped back to regroup. He'd come in hard and fast, expecting to end their battle quickly. Now he had to reevaluate his strategy.

"You're better than you were when we last fought," he said, clearly impressed and making no attempt to hide it.

"So are you," Bane responded.

Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense.

Then he went on the attack. In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side. Now he had no such limitations; for the first time he was calling on his full potential.

He drove Kas'im back with furious slashes, forcing his old mentor into a backpedaling retreat across the floor of the chamber. Kas'im flipped back and out through the door into the hall beyond, but Bane was relentless in his pursuit, leaping forward and coming within a centimeter of landing a crippling blow to the Twilek's leg.

His strike was turned aside at the last second, but he quickly followed it up with another series of powerful thrusts and stabs. The Blademaster continued to give ground, pushed inexorably back by the raging storm of Bane's onslaught. Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized the advantage.

The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas'im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all.

The Blademaster became desperate. Leaping, spinning, ducking, rolling: he was wild and reckless in his retreat, seeking now only to escape with his life. But he didn't know the Temple like Bane did. Bane kept the routes to the outside cut off, slowly herding his opponent into a dead-end hallway.

Recognizing what was happening, Kas'im blew open the heavy door of a side room with the Force and dived inside. Bane knew there was no other exit, and he paused at the threshold of the room to savor his victory.

The Twi'lek stood in the center of the empty chamber, panting heavily, stooped ever so slightly, his head bowed. He looked up when Bane stepped through the doorway. But when his gaze met Bane's, there was no hint of defeat in his eyes.

"You should have finished me when you had the chance," he said. There was less than five meters between them, but it was just enough space for Kas'im to give the hilt of his lightsaber a quick twist. The long handle separated in the middle, and suddenly he was armed not with one double-bladed lightsaber, but with a pair of single blades, one in each hand.

Bane hesitated. Few of the students at the Academy had even attempted to use two sabers at once. The Blademaster had always discouraged them from this variation of the fourth form, saying it was inherently flawed. Now, as he saw the cruel and cunning expression on his enemy's face, Bane understood the real truth.

The battle was rejoined, but now it was Bane who was in full retreat. Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate the unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style. His mind was flooded with a million options of what his opponent might attempt, and he had no experience to draw on to eliminate any of them. Overwhelmed, he staggered back, floundering with the desperation of a drowning man.

Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him.

The Blademaster was unrelenting in his pressure. He seemed to wield six blades rather than two: he attacked with a peculiar rhythm designed to keep his foe off balance, coming in with one blade high and the other low at the same time, striking from opposite sides at odd and opposing angles. Bane had no option but to fall back ... and back ... and back. He was fighting now with a single purpose: somehow escaping with his life. One hope gave him the strength to persevere in the face of overwhelming odds; one advantage the Blademaster had lacked during his own retreat. He knew the layout of the Temple, and he was able to work himself slowly toward the exit.

Battling through the halls and corridors, the combatants rounded a corner to bring them in sight of the Rakatan Temple's only entrance: the wide archway and the small landing beyond, with the wide staircase leading back down to the ground nearly twenty meters below. In the instant it took Kas'im to recognize where they were and realize that his opponent might still escape, Bane thrust out with the Force. He knocked the Twi'lek off balance for a brief second, then backflipped out through the archway and onto the landing. He dropped into a crouch, still facing his opponent. But in his haste Bane had leapt too far; he was balanced precariously on the precipice of the uppermost stair, the steps falling sharply away behind him.

Kas'im responded by using the Force to knock Bane backward, sending him tumbling down the great stone staircase, away from the Blademaster. The fall would have broken his neck-or at least fractured an arm or a leg-if Bane hadn't cocooned himself in the Force. Even so he reached the bottom bruised, battered, and momentarily stunned.

On the landing high above Kas'im stood beneath the massive arch of the Temple entrance, staring down at him.

"I will follow you wherever you run," he said. "Wherever you go I will eventually find you and kill you. Don't live your life in fear, Bane. Better to end it now."

"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Bane watched the spectacle of the Temple's implosion from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs. Billowing clouds of dust rolled out from the wreckage and down the stairs toward him. Exhausted by the long lightsaber battle and drained by the sudden unleashing of the Force, he simply lay there until he was covered in a layer of fine white powder.”

“Exposed by Bane's energy burst, they suddenly found their greatest advantage taken away. And even though there were eight of them, Bane never hesitated.

He leapt forward and cut the first red-robed figure down before he-or she-had a chance to react, a single slash of his lightsaber bisecting the unfortunate opponent horizontally, just above the waist.

The other seven swarmed him, thrusting their force pikes forward to deliver the deadly electrical charge stored in the tips. Bane never even bothered to parry the incoming blows, relying on his orbalisk armor to protect him as he adopted a strategy of pure offense.

His unexpected tactics caught two more of the assassins completely unprepared, and they walked right into a sweeping two-handed cut that disemboweled them both.

The remaining five struck Bane almost simultaneously, their force pikes sending a million volts of current through his body. The orbalisks absorbed most of the charge, but enough filtered through to jolt him from his teeth down to his toes.

The Dark Lord staggered and fell to his knees. But instead of rushing in to finish him off, the assassins simply stood their ground. The idea that anything smaller than a bantha could withstand a direct hit from a force pike set to maximum charge-let alone five pikes at the same time-was inconceivable. Their miscalculation gave Bane the second he needed to shake off the effects and rise to his feet, much to the amazement and horror of his enemies.

"Zannah was right about you," a voice from behind Bane called out.

He whirled around to see a small man in his fifties, clad all in black, standing on the far edge of the camp. In his hand was a green lightsaber, though it was obvious from the way he gripped it that he had never received any proper training in how to handle the exotic weapon.

At the man's side was Bane's own apprentice; she had not drawn her lightsaber.

Bane snarled in anger at her betrayal, his rising anger fueled by the chemicals the orbalisks were pumping into his system.

"Today is the day you die, Darth Bane," the man said, charging forward to attack.

At the same time, the five red-robed figures rushed in from behind him. Bane spun and thrust his open palm toward them, lashing out with the power of the dark side. Like the Jedi and Sith, one of the first techniques Shadow Assassins learned was the creation of a Force barrier. Channeling their power, they could form a protective shield around themselves to negate the Force attacks of their enemies. But if an opponent was strong enough, a concentrated attack could still breach the barrier. Darth Bane, Dark Lord of the Sith, was definitely strong enough.

Two of the assassins were stopped in their tracks, knocked to the ground as if they had run into an invisible wall. Two more, weaker and less able to defend themselves against Bane's power, were sent flying backward. Only the fifth was strong enough to resist the Sith Lord's throw and continue his charge.

However, without his brethren at his side to harry and distract his foe, he found himself the sole focus of Bane's wrath. Unable to defend against the savage sequence of lightsaber cuts and thrusts, he fell in a matter of seconds, half a dozen fatal wounds scored across his chest and face.

While the four remaining assassins regained their feet, Bane wheeled back to their leader. Wisely, the man in black had stopped his own charge and was gathering the Force. As Bane stepped toward him the man unleashed it in a single long, thin bolt of indigo lightning. Bane caught the blast with his lightsaber, the blade absorbing the energy. In retaliation he struck back with lightning of his own- a storm of a dozen bolts arcing in toward his target from all angles.

The man leapt high in the air, flipping backward to avoid the deadly electrical conflagration. He landed on his feet ten meters away, a small, smoking crater marking the spot where he had been standing only an instant before.

"Zannah!" the man shouted. "Do something!"

But Bane's apprentice didn't move. She merely stood off to the side, biding her time and observing the action.

The assassins fell on Bane again, but instead of repelling them with the Force, he allowed his body to become a conduit, turning himself into a physical manifestation of the dark side's tumultuous power. As he spun like a whirlwind, his blade seemed to be everywhere at once: hacking, slashing, and slicing his enemies to ribbons.

All four assassins died in the attack, though one managed to land a single blow with his force pike before his throat was slit, the wound so deep it nearly severed his head. Fueled by rage and fury, Bane shrugged off the deadly electrical shock like a rancor shrugging off the bite of a venn-bug.

Once again he turned his attention to the man in black. Bane marched slowly toward him as his adversary stood frozen in place, paralyzed by the terrifying knowledge of his own imminent death.

"Zannah!" the man cried out to her again, holding his lightsaber vertically before him as if it were a talisman that could hold the approaching demon at bay. "Master! Help me!"

Bane chopped down with his own weapon, severing the man's sword arm at the elbow. The man screamed and dropped to his knees. An instant later his voice went silent as Bane ran him through with a single hard thrust, the lightsaber entering his chest just below his heart and protruding a full half a meter out the back of his shoulder blade.”

“The Emperor's glee turned to a sullen rage. 'So be it, Jedi. If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed.'

Palpatine raised his spidery arms toward Luke: blinding white bolts of energy coruscated from his fingers, shot across the room like sorcerous lightning, and tore through the boy's insides, looking for ground. The young Jedi was at once confounded and in agony -he'd never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it.

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful - the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb.”

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan was dead after teaching him for a few hours. If anyone would teach him it was Yoda. Though if he had taught him that Luke wouldn't have thrown away the one thing he needed to stop Palpatines attacks.

Its pure speculation that he could do it unless we actually have some proof that he could.

Obi-Wan left all his knowledge behind on Tattooine. That's how Luke was able to create a new lightsaber. Also, Obi-Ghost-Kenobi.

As for Luke throwing away his lightsaber, it was all part of his grand plan, he knew that Palpatine would attack him and that Vader would rescue him. No just kidding, Luke just has weird ways of showing his points. Palpatine could have attacked him in any number of ways for which Luke would need his lightsaber.


Nah. The panel says he presses on the walker and notice how the “head” is seemingly being forced down. Also on the final page the head is more or less blown up, and it appears that the neck is somewhat disjointed. As ESB shows this is not what happens when a walker is simply tripped.

'Pressing on it' doesn't explain what happened. It clearly falls over, which simple pressure wouldn't do. The final panel on page 3 has teh legs all twisted, so what he probably did was twist its legs through TK to get it to fall over. The head was previously hit by the deflected cannonfire. This is why it explodes when it hits the ground. The ESB scene had it faceplant into snow, not the hard pavement(?).

Ok thanks. However, technobeasts aren’t much more than ancient bones, rods and strips of wire.

It's specifically mentioned that they're made of metal mostly, and the metals of SW are alot harder than our metals.

And saying that a force power is required to block it isn’t? The simple fact is no such power has ever been stated in any form, hell lightsabers have been said to “absorb” force lightning. And as I pointed out earlier, Luke at least had some success against Palpatine’s lightning.

Non-canon going from the above excerpt.

Obi-Wan left all his knowledge behind on Tattooine. That's how Luke was able to create a new lightsaber. Also, Obi-Ghost-Kenobi.

As for Luke throwing away his lightsaber, it was all part of his grand plan, he knew that Palpatine would attack him and that Vader would rescue him. No just kidding, Luke just has weird ways of showing his points. Palpatine could have attacked him in any number of ways for which Luke would need his lightsaber.

He left a few journals, with an unknown amount of info in them. And Luke's stupid, but he's not that stupid. Meow.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Pressing on it' doesn't explain what happened. It clearly falls over, which simple pressure wouldn't do.

Why do you say this? Enough pressure on them and something will have to give.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The final panel on page 3 has teh legs all twisted, so what he probably did was twist its legs through TK to get it to fall over.

Well of course the legs would be twisted. If Luke did press on it from the top the legs, which are the last thick part of the machine, would likely give first. Thgus they would be forced to the sides.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The head was previously hit by the deflected cannonfire. This is why it explodes when it hits the ground. The ESB scene had it faceplant into snow, not the hard pavement(?).

True. But in the Battle of Boz Pitty an AT-AT also face plants without blowing up and at the Battle of Ralltiir we see an AT-AT tripped on the pavement.

Anyway it apperas that Luke is holding out his hand toward the head, the line of Luke's arm goes toward its head, and the head is being forced down.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's specifically mentioned that they're made of metal mostly, and the metals of SW are alot harder than our metals.

Here is a description of the ones Bane fought.

“Once a mutated combination of flesh and technology, most of the technobeasts' living tissue had long since rotted and fallen away. What remained were desiccated strands of skin and sinew clinging to bone, supported and held together by rods, wires, and twisted scraps of metal.”

Originally posted by Nephthys
Non-canon going from the above excerpt.

Which is why I said "take it as you will" earlier on.

On a different subject I always wondered what was happening on the last panel of the first page in that DE scene… It seems as if Luke is absorbing the AT-AT’s fire.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He left a few journals, with an unknown amount of info in them. And Luke's stupid, but he's not that stupid. Meow.

It is very likely that the information for blocking the Emperor's main attacking power is in his journal. If we are going to apply a new way of reasoning than surely this can be included into an actual argument. There is no reason for Obi-Wan not to include this essential piece of information.

Luke threw his lightsaber away... you just don't do that under any circumstance, especially not if you're on a station with loads of stormtroopers and your main defense against blaster fire is a lightsaber. So yes, Luke actually is that stupid.

I know y'all want to institute a "new" way of thinking, but flat out presuming that Obi-Wan wrote specifically about the effects of Force Lightning on a lightsaber is... well just that, presumption. Based on nothing. Considering that canon Luke never even attempted to resist Palaptine's attack, its more reasonable to deduce that Obi-Wan never wrote of it.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I know y'all want to institute a "new" way of thinking, but flat out presuming that Obi-Wan wrote specifically about the effects of Force Lightning on a lightsaber is... well just that, presumption. Based on nothing. Considering that canon Luke never even attempted to resist Palaptine's attack, its more reasonable to deduce that Obi-Wan never wrote of it.

What we don't know is how FL is blocked. It doesn't seem to be that complicated, we've seen Force users just hold up their lightsabers with relative ease (Obi-Wan) and then the lightsabers act like a lightning rod. If someone could explain how Lightning gets blocked and if it'd be a difficult procedure then I might understand why Obi-Wan didn't put it in his journals. If however, you just have to hold up the freaking lightsaber then it is practically impossible to assume that in those 2 decades Obi-Wan didn't think to himself:

"Hmm, maybe I should also mention that holding up your lightsaber can defend you against the most powerful Dark Side attack... especially now that I don't have much else to do except wait until the guy who has to defeat the Emperor (who uses FL) is ready."

As for Luke never attempting to resist Palpatine's attack, he didn't really have a lot of choice because you know, he was getting electrocuted. If you mean by "Luke never even attempted to resist Palaptine's attack" that he threw away his lightsaber, then I still blame his trust in Vader because Sidious could also have hidden a blaster in his cloak and Luke would also need a lightsaber to block that.

EDIT: I'm going to support the new way of thinking in this case because you actually don't know every single word that was written in Obi-Wan's journals, so we can assume that he wrote the essentials of the Force in them. It's almost certain that knowledge about Force Lightning was contained in the journals, what else would Obi-Wan write in them?

Does the Expanded Universe give us any idea of what sort of requirements there are behind learning the ability to defend against Force Lightning (i.e. perequisite base abilities, general level of competence, time etc.). If it can be reasonably assumed that Yoda and Obi-Wan felt that they were in a position to successfully teach him the ability, the likelihood that they would have attempted to do so is high.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. The panel says he presses on the walker and notice how the “head” is seemingly being forced down. Also on the final page the head is more or less blown up, and it appears that the neck is somewhat disjointed. As ESB shows this is not what happens when a walker is simply tripped.

I disagree, this is what happens when an AT-AT is tripped:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5mdq-YcqHY

Man, I hate Family Guy.

Jokes aside, I am leaning towards Ares' position (DE Luke) on this one. However, this debate has prompted a question:

If it was Bane w/ Orbalisk armor (did he still have the armor in ROT, or or Dynasty, it has been a while since I read the books) vs. DE Luke, how would DE Luke go about defeating him, or at least getting through his orb armor? Assume Force Lightning is not used.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
What we don't know is how FL is blocked. It doesn't seem to be that complicated, we've seen Force users just hold up their lightsabers with relative ease (Obi-Wan) and then the lightsabers act like a lightning rod. If someone could explain how Lightning gets blocked and if it'd be a difficult procedure then I might understand why Obi-Wan didn't put it in his journals. If however, you just have to hold up the freaking lightsaber then it is practically impossible to assume that in those 2 decades Obi-Wan didn't think to himself:

"Hmm, maybe I should also mention that holding up your lightsaber can defend you against the most powerful Dark Side attack... especially now that I don't have much else to do except wait until the guy who has to defeat the Emperor (who uses FL) is ready."

As for Luke never attempting to resist Palpatine's attack, he didn't really have a lot of choice because you know, he was getting electrocuted. If you mean by "Luke never even attempted to resist Palaptine's attack" that he threw away his lightsaber, then I still blame his trust in Vader because Sidious could also have hidden a blaster in his cloak and Luke would also need a lightsaber to block that.

EDIT: I'm going to support the new way of thinking in this case because you actually don't know every single word that was written in Obi-Wan's journals, so we can assume that he wrote the essentials of the Force in them. It's almost certain that knowledge about Force Lightning was contained in the journals, what else would Obi-Wan write in them?

I'm not going to. I understand the intention behind it, but flat out presuming that Kenobi put that specific tidbit in there is too much. He could have biographied the entire Order's history to his knowledge, his thoughts and opinions, pros and cons, problems and solutions, the rituals and methods etc., but we know that he didn't, given Luke's near complete ignorance in the post-RotJ material.

We also have Kenobi's (and Yoda's) unusual method of training and preparation. Not bothering to train one half of Anakin's children, waiting 19 years before external circumstances forced them to begin on Luke, lieing to him about his paternity, Kenobi's frankly pointless sacrifice, his waiting 3 years to tell him of Yoda, Yoda's initial refusal to train him, not preventing him from going to face Vader, waiting until Yoda's a year from death to begin his training... oy.

After all that, casually forgetting to mention the properties (nay, existence) of Force Lightning seems like a pretty minor thing. Those two assholes were the biggest gamblers and risk takers in the entire mythos. Palpatine's got nothing on them.

Originally posted by SwordOfTheJedi
Jokes aside, I am leaning towards Ares' position (DE Luke) on this one. However, this debate has prompted a question:

If it was Bane w/ Orbalisk armor (did he still have the armor in ROT, or or Dynasty, it has been a while since I read the books) vs. DE Luke, how would DE Luke go about defeating him, or at least getting through his orb armor? Assume Force Lightning is not used.

I assumed we were talking about Bane’s most powerful incarnation so indeed ROT Bane with orbalisk. In this case I’d say he has the edge on DE Luke.

When it comes to force battle both Bane and Luke have impressive feats to their names so it’s a tough call.

Though when it comes to saber battle it seems to me that orbalisk turns
the odds in Bane’s favor. DE Luke is good, but Bane is no slouch either and has most of his body protected. IMO this gives Bane an advantage not to be overlooked.

Ps. I’m not sure, does DE Luke use FL?

No. It's only when he faces the Vong that he gains electric judgement iirc and then afterwards the entire order starts using FL because they had some retarded philosophy going on.

I agree with your views. The orbalisks are too big a factor for Luke to overcome. Likewise the force side of things its a tough call but imo Bane has better application on a offensive scale. I always got the impression that Luke followed Yoda's 'the force is used for defence, but never attack' philosophy.

I blame everything that has happened in this thread on Red Nemesis. -The Bastard- has manipulated you people into doubting Bane's overwhelming superiority over DE Luke, including ares who posted before him, and yet none of you see this, particularly ares who has been completely oblivious to his role in this.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Well, is DE Luke in the same league as Bane?
Um. No.

DE Luke stomps all over his pimply roiding ass.

Originally posted by hehknwswhtufear
I blame everything that has happened in this thread on Red Nemesis. -The Bastard- has manipulated you people into doubting Bane's overwhelming superiority over DE Luke, including ares who posted before him, and yet none of you see this, particularly ares who has been completely oblivious to his role in this.
Please, Bane couldn't take on Qui-Gon, much less DE Luke.