Volturi vs Underworld

vs

The Volturi have caught word that there exists another group of Vampires in the New World that have allegedly claimed themselves as the royal and supreme authority. Having been around for 3000 years, the Volturi will recognize no such authority, and in fact the existence of such a coven is seen as an act of war.

Both covens are now intent on wiping out the other.

Who prevails?

The Volturi

- Aro
- Caius
- Marcus
- Jane
- Alec (Blocks the senses)
- Demetri (Tracker)
- Felix (Speed Tank)
- Heidi

- Other Volturi guards seen in the film.

The Underworld Coven

- Viktor
- Markus
- Amelia
- Selene

- The High Council (Ones killed along with Amelia in Underwold I)

- The Death Dealers (Ones seen in Underworld I)

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This is not an all-in physical fight. Think of it more in terms of mob or gang wars.

Given their respective resources, assets (including themselves), and abilities, who would you bet on winning in the end?

If they know about each other, then Felix doesn't solo.

If they don't, Felix solos.

The Twivamps are bullet-proof and no blade will cut their flesh...so "explosives" are the Underwolrd Vamps best bet.

Originally posted by dadudemon

The Twivamps are bullet-proof and no blade will cut their flesh

Originally posted by Mindset
This was shown in the movies?

No, not at all.

No vampire was shot or swung at with a blade.

But there's a much more obvious reason why the are bullet-proof and, for all intents and purposes, blade proof.

Additionally, adamantium does not exist in either universe, so we don't have to worry about it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, not at all.

No vampire was shot or swung at with a blade.

But there's a much more obvious reason why the are bullet-proof and, for all intents and purposes, blade proof.

Additionally, adamantium does not exist in either universe, so we don't have to worry about it.

It was stated that they were bullet proof.

Additionally, Carlisle, with grim seriousness, said that no human army could stand against 20 newborn vampires.

Additionally, how is a bladed weapon going to cut through something that is like a solid rock? The blade will dull and bounce off of their flesh.

We can take it a step further, once Breaking Dawn comes out because Carlisle says that no needles can pierce vampire skin (they are useless) and addition to them stating that only vampires and werewolves can rip throug the flesh (properties of their teeth.)

If you'll notice, when a vampire's head is ripped off, a break is made, first, with the teeth and THEN the head is ripped off. I cannot support my position, fully, until Breakin Dawn comes out, though...but I can use the evidences.

But, wait, they shatter eachother's faces (not supposed to happen), so I take that back...but Breaking Dawn will shed some light on the strength thing.

What about strength, how does an Underworld Elder fare in that department?

Originally posted by dadudemon
It was stated that they were bullet proof.

Additionally, Carlisle, with grim seriousness, said that no human army could stand against 20 newborn vampires.

Additionally, how is a bladed weapon going to cut through something that is like a solid rock? The blade will dull and bounce off of their flesh.

We can take it a step further, once Breaking Dawn comes out because Carlisle says that no needles can pierce vampire skin (they are useless) and addition to them stating that only vampires and werewolves can rip throug the flesh (properties of their teeth.)

If you'll notice, when a vampire's head is ripped off, a break is made, first, with the teeth and THEN the head is ripped off. I cannot support my position, fully, until Breakin Dawn comes out, though...but I can use the evidences.

But, wait, they shatter eachother's faces (not supposed to happen), so I take that back...but Breaking Dawn will shed some light on the strength thing.

No proof of them tanking heavy artillery, explosives, etc.

Because with sufficient force a bladed weapon can break solid rocks? Not being pierced by a needle =/= not being hurt by a sword wielded by someone with super strength/speed.

Originally posted by Placidity
What about strength, how does an Underworld Elder fare in that department?

They are pretty dang strong, from what I can tell.

Not as strong as amped Selene, Marcus, or Michael, of course. They are on a completely different level.

They do not have very big strength feats, but I'd put them around Blade's level of a 1 ton lifter.

I'd put the "supers" around 3 tons based on Marcus' showing on being able to knock around the truck and lifting the large portcullis by William's tomb.

Originally posted by Mindset
I'll take the bullet proof thing at face value, but Carlisle's statement about the army doesn't hold any weight.

Well, considering that Carlisle is probably the most educated being on the planet and he was speaking with grim sincerity, I have a hard time doubting his words.

Originally posted by Mindset
No proof of them tanking heavy artillery, explosives, etc.

Which is why I said this:

"so "explosives" are the Underwolrd Vamps best bet."

Originally posted by Mindset
Because with sufficient force a bladed weapon can break solid rocks? Not being pierced by a needle =/= not being hurt by a sword wielded by someone with super strength/speed.

Since the Underwold vamps are not very far into the superhuman category, no, it will not be nearly enough.

And the needle thing was to show potential hardness. They are definitely harder than granite, as they are often referred to, but they are also refered to as being as hard as diamonds.

I would like to think of them being somewhere between the two.

But, you're very dead set on the Twivamps losing any fight they are in, it seems. Why?

The Twivamps are superior in every way possible, over the Underworld vamps.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, considering that Carlisle is probably the most educated being on the planet and he was speaking with grim sincerity, I have a hard time doubting his words.

Which is why I said this:

"so "explosives" are the Underwolrd Vamps best bet."

Anyway, I doubt any Vampires have gone up against a modern human army, since, you know, that would expose them. I don't see Vamps doing to well against F-22's.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Since the Underwold vamps are not very far into the superhuman category, no, it will not be nearly enough.

And the needle thing was to show potential hardness. They are definitely harder than granite, as they are often referred to, but they are also refered to as being as hard as diamonds.

I would like to think of them being somewhere between the two.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But, you're very dead set on the Twivamps losing any fight they are in, it seems. Why?

The Twivamps are superior in every way possible, over the Underworld vamps.

I don't remember arguing that they weren't.

Originally posted by Mindset
So...what? You have a hard time doubting Carlisle, but you think explosives are Underworld's best choice, implying that you think explosives may work, I don't get it.

Yeah, I see a suprise attack against the Volturi, using high-end explosives, as their best bet.

But, I forgot that the Twi-vamps have ultra-senses so a suprise attack won't work. So I take it back.

Still, strap on a large quantity of high explosives to a vampire and I could see them being blown to bits.

Also, I do not see how a vampire could survive a vacuum bomb or other type of high-end bombs.

But, more to the point, the Vampires have evaded human detection for thousands of years. That's mostly due to the Volturi's efforts. It's hard to make a case for modern military when they are supposed to be "undetectable" by our normal measures.

How are the militaries going to narrow down who and where the vamps are? How can they accomplish that when a single vampire could solo for quite a long time?

Originally posted by Mindset
Anyway, I doubt any Vampires have gone up against a modern human army, since, you know, that would expose them. I don't see Vamps doing to well against F-22's..

The only option the humans have is blanket bombing...but that wouldn't work against the Cullen Coven because Alice would forsee that.

Additionally, one vampire could easily take out an entire military base of humans.

Originally posted by Mindset
Why do they need to be far into the superhuman category?

Because the forces you are talking about are really really high up there. Well beyond beings that are barely superhuman in strength.

Or, are you claiming that they can slice through them?

If so, how did you come to this conclusion? If you did come to that conclusion, where is your math? How did you arrive at a hardness for the vampires? Where did you do this testing?

Originally posted by Mindset
I wasn't aware that I was,

Sure seems like it with your comments in this thread and the other.

Originally posted by Mindset
but it seems like you know something that I don't, so I think you may be better able to answer than I am.

On the contrary, it seems like you know something I don't.

I cannot see 5 times strength with the sturdiest blade doing anything but bounce off of the flesh of the vampires.

I could see, however, a massive massive sword (like Guts sword) cutting through them.

Originally posted by Mindset
I don't remember arguing that they weren't.

How can the Underworld vampires cut throug the Twilight vampires with this tiny swords of theirs?

Originally posted by dadudemon
They are pretty dang strong, from what I can tell.

Not as strong as amped Selene, Marcus, or Michael, of course. They are on a completely different level.

They do not have very big strength feats, but I'd put them around Blade's level of a 1 ton lifter.

I'd put the "supers" around 3 tons based on Marcus' showing on being able to knock around the truck and lifting the large portcullis by William's tomb.

Hmm. Markus pulling down that helicopter is a pretty strong feat.

I just randomly looked up a Blackhawk chopper, and its "max take off weight" is about 11 tons. From the little I read, thats the maximum amount of weight it can carry to be airworthy when it takes off. So having a little over 11 tons doesn't mean its physically too heavy to lift off.

So, I'm guessing, Markus had to exceed that to pull it down from the air when its trying to get away.

........

Now the other thing I want to discuss is whether Underworld Elders can break Twilight Vampires.

Instinctively the answer is no, but it was something that I was annoyed with in the 3rd film. And that is that their strength and durability are grossly disproportionate. In the large battle scene, vamps were casually punching heads and ripping off limbs like nothing. This indicates their strength is much greater than their durability , or vice versa, durability is much less than strength (compared to human standards, since you can't just punch someone's head off in one swing). So what I want to discuss is, whether you guys think Underworld vampires have sufficient strength to do some damage.

I'm thinking the "Supers" as you call it probably could.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, I see a suprise attack against the Volturi, using high-end explosives, as their best bet.

But, I forgot that the Twi-vamps have ultra-senses so a suprise attack won't work. So I take it back.

Still, strap on a large quantity of high explosives to a vampire and I could see them being blown to bits.

Also, I do not see how a vampire could survive a vacuum bomb or other type of high-end bombs.

But, more to the point, the Vampires have evaded human detection for thousands of years. That's mostly due to the Volturi's efforts. It's hard to make a case for modern military when they are supposed to be "undetectable" by our normal measures.

How are the militaries going to narrow down who and where the vamps are? How can they accomplish that when a single vampire could solo for quite a long time?

The only option the humans have is blanket bombing...but that wouldn't work against the Cullen Coven because Alice would forsee that.

Additionally, one vampire could easily take out an entire military base of humans.

Because the forces you are talking about are really really high up there. Well beyond beings that are barely superhuman in strength.

Or, are you claiming that they can slice through them?

If so, how did you come to this conclusion? If you did come to that conclusion, where is your math? How did you arrive at a hardness for the vampires? Where did you do this testing?

Sure seems like it with your comments in this thread and the other.

On the contrary, it seems like you know something I don't.

I cannot see 5 times strength with the sturdiest blade doing anything but bounce off of the flesh of the vampires.

I could see, however, a massive massive sword (like Guts sword) cutting through them.

How can the Underworld vampires cut throug the Twilight vampires with this tiny swords of theirs?

Why would they need to blanket bomb with they just make surgical strikes with predator drones? What Alice could see has nothing to do with if their physical abilities allow them to beat an army, which is what we're discussing.

Taking out a military base =/= beating an army.

How high would the forces need to be based on what we've seen of their durability? I'm not claiming anything aside from a super strong individual with super speed is going to cause significantly more damage swinging a sword than a needle is, which is what you've brought to show their hardness. How hard are the vampires, what's their greatest feat of durability against piercing objects? All I've seen is conjecture.

What comments would those be, that I don't think they can beat a modern army?

What instances of durability are you basing your opinion of someone with 5 times strength not being able to cut them?

Show me something of substance regarding their durability to piercing damage and I may agree.

Originally posted by Mindset
Why would they need to narrow it down? The statement that the new born vamps taking on an army didn't say they'd be hiding in among regular people, it just said they could take any army. You're adding stipulations that did not exist within the statement.

No, the humans would need to figure out where they are.

Originally posted by Mindset
Why would they need to blanket bomb with they just make surgical strikes with predator drones? What Alice could see has nothing to do with if their physical abilities allow them to beat an army, which is what we're discussing.

Cause they need to know where they are, first.

Originally posted by Mindset
Taking out a military base =/= beating an army.

Taking out the military heads and heads of state would be, though. That'd be far easier especailly since the vampires would have far more planning time.

Originally posted by Mindset
How high would the forces need to be based on what we've seen of their durability?

You tell me. I think it will bounce off just like it would do to a rock. You think it will cut them. Why?

Originally posted by Mindset
I'm not claiming anything aside from a super strong individual with super speed is going to cause significantly more damage swinging a sword than a needle is, which is what you've brought to show their hardness.

Sugical steel, in a very small cylindrical form, would have a really good chance of punching into the flesh. A vampire is superhuman, so they'd have an even better chance to stab it, very hard, with perfect accuracy. It just bends and does nothing.

Additionally, where is this evidence that a katana or claymore is going to cut through something that has a hardness somewhere between granite and a diamond?

Originally posted by Mindset
How hard are the vampires, what's their greatest feat of durability against piercing objects? All I've seen is conjecture.

Hardness appears to be greater than a 9 on the hardness scale, considering this needle measure. Surgical steel is somewhere between an 8.5 and a 9.5 (I could have sworn it was a low 9, but I couldn't find anything. I did find something about industrial steel being an 8.)

Originally posted by Mindset
What instances of durability are you basing your opinion of someone with 5 times strength not being able to cut them?

Mythbusters trying to break swords. They had one wind up all the way to somethng like 5 times harder than the best swordsmen could do. Considering the vampire flesh is going to be comparable to super durable steel, it's a fair measure.

Originally posted by Mindset
Show me something of substance regarding their durability to piercing damage and I may agree.

I don't know what you want from me, actually.

Originally posted by Placidity
Hmm. Markus pulling down that helicopter is a pretty strong feat.

I just randomly looked up a Blackhawk chopper, and its "max take off weight" is about 11 tons. From the little I read, thats the maximum amount of weight it can carry to be airworthy when it takes off. So having a little over 11 tons doesn't mean its physically too heavy to lift off.

So, I'm guessing, Markus had to exceed that to pull it down from the air when its trying to get away.

We covered this already: he didn't have to exert 11 tons of force, at all.

If he exerted anymore force than his own body weight, he would have lifted himself off of the ground.

Do you want me to find that reply? I think it's relevant. I'll leave it up to your since this is your thread and I don't want to crap up your thread with past arguments you and I have had.

........

Originally posted by Placidity
Now the other thing I want to discuss is whether Underworld Elders can break Twilight Vampires.

Instinctively the answer is no, but it was something that I was annoyed with in the 3rd film. And that is that their strength and durability are grossly disproportionate. In the large battle scene, vamps were casually punching heads and ripping off limbs like nothing. This indicates their strength is much greater than their durability , or vice versa, durability is much less than strength (compared to human standards, since you can't just punch someone's head off in one swing). So what I want to discuss is, whether you guys think Underworld vampires have sufficient strength to do some damage.

I'm thinking the "Supers" as you call it probably could.

I don't think they could damge them.

I've shown that a dude with average vampire strength is a 100+ class, in the other thread. I would have to agree, based on the movies only, that their durability is less than their strength. I'd put Ol' Eddie's neck at about 15 inches, circumferences. That puts his neck at 6" diameter. Consider you can get "purchase" on the chin and head, I'm sure you could tear the head off with that much force...but I'm just guessing in the dark.

I think the Twilight Vampires will have this easy, fabulous as they are they are very powerful Vampires.

Originally posted by dadudemon
We covered this already: he didn't have to exert 11 tons of force, at all.

Do you want me to find that reply? I think it's relevant. I'll leave it up to your since this is your thread and I don't want to crap up your thread with past arguments you and I have had.
.

Erm, thats the first time I've discussed it o.O

I remember someone else mentioning it before though.

Originally posted by dadudemon

If he exerted anymore force than his own body weight, he would have lifted himself off of the ground.

So what exactly are you saying, the chopper only weighed like 100 Kg?

Originally posted by Placidity
Erm, thats the first time I've discussed it o.O

I remember someone else mentioning it before though.

Really?

I'll look.

Damn, you're right. I could have sworn that was you.

Originally posted by Placidity
So what exactly are you saying, the chopper only weighed like 100 Kg?

No. You're thinking "inertia". It does have quite a bit more inertia than the dude, but a helicopter is floating in the air. If a really heavy person pulls on a rope connected to a helicopter, it would move down quite easily.

Here's the original post:

Originally posted by dadudemon
The best strength feat we have is Markus being able to lift up that large portcullis in Evolution. Maybe weighs a ton or two.

That greatly out matches the 'pull the copter' down feat as a copter hovering can be pulled down with very little force: here's why:

In order for a copter to hover, the copter must exert a wind (vortex) force that creates an equal but opposite force to the g. If it applies a force greater than an opposite forcae to g, it moves up...less than g, it moves down.

If a helicopter is hovering, pulling on a rope anchored to the helicopter would cause it to move up and down. Of course, the copter has inertia so it doesn't move up and down as easily as a small toy helicopter with a string being pulled on (because, in the force system is in a state of equilibrium so in order to move such a massive object, it would be like tugging on the object in space (sort of): you'd have to apply a bit of force to it to get it to move...but not very much because there is very little "friction" to rub against the helicopter as you pull it.) There's also the small problem of trying to pull the helicopter while it is exerting it's lift force to stay in the static state. So you have to pull the helicopter twice as hard as you would in space because the rotors would be applying their lifting force as you try to "accelerate" to helicopter in the opposite direction it is trying to push against. It's hard to explain what I mean, but it makes perfect sense to me. Let me know if you need me to explain it better...but that's the best I can come up with, at this point.

^ Ok, I get ya.

But I would imagine, the chopper would be trying to fly away (i.e opposite direction/up) after the crew realize something is pulling it down?

Also, I don't know jack crap about how a chopper operates, but I would imagine that it has some sort of mechanism to automatically stabilize itself to maintain 'hovering' statically? Like say if it somehow senses downward force is becoming greater, it will compensate? I mean rescue choppers have to pull stuff up, yet it more or less maintains its position.

Then theres also the point that Markus pulls it down quite quickly, so the force must have been considerable.