Zoom vs Darkseid

Originally posted by kakuzu
Theses no such thing as practice when he's STUCK ON A WHEEl. See he can practice all he wants its no in his power sets. Other guys aren't like every one else who can actually get faster can practice. Zoom just literally can't unless your suggesting he breaks out of what is stated and gains new powers?

For instance: back when he first debuted, Zoom could only stand still in time -- he couldn't speed up or slow down. Now he can. Now he can even give that ability to others (Kid Flash/Cheetah.)

Originally posted by Simbon
Zoom is powerful, and he's winning this, but let's not get carried away and give him credit for things he's never done before.

Fact: Due to the nature of Zoom's powers, time is literally stopped around him.
Fact: Per Dianna, Zoom can punch with the force of Superman without building up any sort of momentum.
Fact: Zoom can deliver thousands of punches, nigh-instantly.
Fact: Zoom made an amped Wally look pathetically slow.
Fact: Superman was also a statue in comparison to Zoom.

Connect the dots and you have guy who, if fighting to full capacity, is capable of delivering thousands of Superman-level punches almost instantly as the battle begins... Rendering Darkseid unable to do much of anything.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Flash is like this too on the forum based on forum rules.

Forum rules state that characters fight to the best of their abilities based on feats. Meaning that even though Flash has been tagged in comics by non-FTL people, in forum he's not going to be, because he has feats to this effect. Zoom, so far as I know, does not have so much as a single feat in which, before they can even react, he blitzes a character like Darkseid into unconsciousness. He blitzed superman, but despite the blitz Supes appeared largely unharmed by the attack.

Originally posted by Galan007

What exactly did I give him credit for that he's never done?

Fact: Due to the nature of Zoom's powers, time is literally stopped around him.
Fact: Per Dianna, Zoom can punch with the force of Superman without building up any sort of momentum.
Fact: Zoom can deliver thousands of punches, nigh-instantly.
Fact: Zoom made an amped Wally look pathetically slow.
Fact: Superman was also a statue in comparison to Zoom.

Connect the dots and you have guy who is capable of delivering thousands of Superman-level punches almost instantly as the battle begins, before Darkseid even realizes what is going on.

Yeah, and since Surfer can instantly read and rewrite people's DNA, he can also grant himself the powers of Franklin Richards, right? I don't think this "connecting the dots" kind of argumentation is a substitution for a level of combat feat that Zoom doesn't have.

Don't understand what you're saying. Unlike the Surfer comparison you used, Zoom has actually done everything I mentioned, on panel. The reason he doesn't always blitz his opponents with thousands of Superman-level punches, is because he doesn't fight to kill... He fights to teach.

However, if he were fighting to his full capacity, ALL of his abilities would be up for grabs. Meaning he WOULD be able to connect the dots, and use his abilities to their best.

Originally posted by Simbon
Forum rules state that characters fight to the best of their abilities based on feats. Meaning that even though Flash has been tagged in comics by non-FTL people, in forum he's not going to be, because he has feats to this effect. Zoom, so far as I know, does not have so much as a single feat in which, before they can even react, he blitzes a character like Darkseid into unconsciousness. He blitzed superman, but despite the blitz Supes appeared largely unharmed by the attack.

Originally posted by Galan007
Don't understand what you're saying. Unlike the Surfer comparison you used, Zoom has actually done everything I mentioned, on panel. The reason he doesn't always blitz his opponents with thousands of Superman-level punches, is because he doesn't fight to kill... He fights to teach.

However, if he were fighting to his full capacity, ALL of his abilities would be up for grabs. Meaning he WOULD be able to connect the dots, and use his abilities to their best.

Surfer has scanned and rewritten people's DNA on panel, so technically this is within his abilities. The point I was trying to make is that even though we have seen Zoom stop time, throw thousands of punches per second, and hit harder than superman, we have never actually seen him do all of this to insta-kill high-end characters. Can Zoom take down PC Validus before Validus knew what was happening?

Zoom hardly ever fights to his full capacity, though. Like I said, he doesn't fight to kill. He fights to teach. That's why I keep reiterating full capacity. If he's fighting to full capacity here, ALL of his abilities are accessible.

For instance, Flash rarely ever cuts loose and blitzes an opponent immediately after the battle begins... Yet here on KMC, not only can he blitz right from the start, but he can IMP right from the start as well. Full capacity.

Zoom CAN throw thousands of punches nigh-instantly, and he CAN hit as hard as Superman. Saying he wouldn't be able to put those abilities together in a 'full capacity' setting is ridiculous, imo.

👆

Originally posted by Galan007
Zoom hardly ever fights to his full capacity, though. Like I said, he doesn't fight to kill. He fights to teach. That's why I keep reiterating full capacity. If he's fighting to full capacity here, ALL of his abilities are accessible.

For instance, Flash rarely ever cuts loose and blitzes an opponent immediately after the battle begins... Yet here on KMC, not only can he blitz right from the start, but he can IMP right from the start as well. Full capacity.

Zoom CAN throw thousands of punches nigh-instantly, and he CAN hit as hard as Superman. Saying he wouldn't be able to put those abilities together in a 'full capacity' setting is ridiculous, imo.

I am fairly cautious and prefer to base estimates of damage from the outcomes of fights, rather than extrapolating a character's full capacity. Like I said, can Zoom insta-kill PC Validus? Until I see Zoom instantly take out someone like Doomsday or Despero, how can I be sure that, in the midst of of Zoom's onslaught, a highly durable character like Thanos wouldn't be able to launch a telepathic counterattack or something? You say my standpoint is ridiculous, but (with absolutely no feeling one way or the other for zoom) when I look at those fights, I am perplexed that you can see them as proof that Zoom could effortlessly defeat trans-tier characters.

I suspect we will have to leave it at that.

Originally posted by Galan007
Just noticed this.

You realize Zoom's powers are derived from the cosmic treadmill, right? So if he's imbued with those energies, it's perfectly logical to assume that he could gain the ability to time travel... With enough practice.

Ah, so you're essentially throwing out one feat you don't agree with, and replacing it with a feat you do agree with? I'm sure you understand why I find that line of logic a bit... Faulty.

Imo, it IS in Zoom's scope of power to time travel -- it's just not 'in character' for him to do so.

Originally posted by Simbon
I am fairly cautious and prefer to base estimates of damage from the outcomes of fights, rather than extrapolating a character's full capacity. Like I said, can Zoom insta-kill PC Validus? Until I see Zoom instantly take out someone like Doomsday or Despero, how can I be sure that, in the midst of of Zoom's onslaught, a highly durable character like Thanos wouldn't be able to launch a telepathic counterattack or something? You say my standpoint is ridiculous, but (with absolutely no feeling one way or the other for zoom) when I look at those fights, I am perplexed that you can see them as proof that Zoom could effortlessly defeat trans-tier characters.

I suspect we will have to leave it at that.

Despero? Sure. DD might adapt given his powers. Thanos would be screwed.

And Validus? Are you nuts? 😑 It took 4 PC kryptonians just to BFR him. He's beaten the entire PC legion.

If Galan believes that Darkseid himself cannot react in time to depower Zoom, I fail to see how anyone you mentioned can do so.

Originally posted by Galan007
We've also seen him tank punches from Superman, as well as punches from Flash traveling near/at/beyond the speed of light. Several times.

Don't undersell the character just to try and make DS look better. Zoom can still blitz the hell out of Darky WELL before he could attempt a counter.

Didn't say he couldn't. I just disagree that he would win the majority. I don't really see Zoom being as durable as a Superman, WW type character. For one, there's no explanation for why he'd even be that durable, at least the Flashes have the speed force explanation, in terms of being protected from friction at the speeds they move.

We've already seen that he's vulnerable to regular weapons, I'm not underselling him when I say that he'd get one shotted if hit here.

Originally posted by Simbon
I am fairly cautious and prefer to base estimates of damage from the outcomes of fights, rather than extrapolating a character's full capacity. Like I said, can Zoom insta-kill PC Validus?

Feat-wise, pre-crisis Validus' overall durability >>> current/pre-FC Darkseid. PC Val was stomping multiple pre-crisis Kryptonians. Current DS has been stomped by one Kryptonian (Superman.) That said, Zoom can hit equally as hard as Superman, and he can hit MUCH faster. 1+1=2.

Zoom's ability to beat DS doesn't mean he can beat 'any' trans-tier guy... Not by a long shot.

Originally posted by Galan007
Your analogies don't pertain to my opinion here, whatsoever.

Feat-wise, pre-crisis Validus' overall durability >>> current/pre-FC Darkseid. PC Val was stomping multiple pre-crisis Kryptonians. Current DS has been stomped by one Kryptonian (Superman.) That said, Zoom can hit equally as hard as Superman, and he can hit MUCH faster. 1+1=2.

Zoom's ability to beat DS doesn't mean he can beat 'any' trans-tier guy... Not by a long shot.

Dude, the point is not that Darkseid is comparable to PC Validus (the ultimate comics brawler), the point is that at some point Zoom's massive damage output doesn't add up to an instant-kill due to his opponents durability, and that without combat feats where he is employing this strategy against opponents who are above high herald it is difficult to know where Zoom meets his limits. And again, I said in my first post that Darkseid loses. I simply questioned your logic, since it would seem to imply that Zoom CAN defeat guys like Validus, even though we all know he can't. That was the point of the analogy, not to say that Darkseid is on the same tier as that beast. Since you've said he can't defeat everyone who is trans-tier, where in your opinion, does he run into trouble if time-manipulation is not involved?

Ummmm, you are aware of WHO created Validus, aren't you?

Originally posted by Galan007
Your analogies don't pertain to my opinion here, whatsoever.

Feat-wise, pre-crisis Validus' overall durability >>> current/pre-FC Darkseid. PC Val was stomping multiple pre-crisis Kryptonians. Current DS has been stomped by one Kryptonian (Superman.) That said, Zoom can hit equally as hard as Superman, and he can hit MUCH faster. 1+1=2.

Zoom's ability to beat DS doesn't mean he can beat 'any' trans-tier guy... Not by a long shot.

This brings up a good question though.. can you name someone on the Trans tier that can beat Zoom in your opinion Galan?

Originally posted by Allankles
He can bend relative time, while Zoom can only manipulate time on his own body, he can't touch relative time. If DS perceives Zoom's exploitation of his time manipulation powers he can slow down time around Zoom, however many feet of space that is. Negating Zoom's exploit and his "speed" advantage through that exploit.

He's already shown he can loop, bend, increase the speed or reduce the speed of time around a single target or even a whole planet. Wouldn't be difficult to bend relative time around the battlefield.

How would he have time to get a thought in when the battle starts?
Power to win is useless if one doesn't have time to use it.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ummmm, you are aware of WHO created Validus, aren't you?

Ummmm, are you aware that Darkseid ain't what he used to be and that entities are often more powerful than their creators?

Originally posted by Simbon
Dude, the point is not that Darkseid is comparable to PC Validus (the ultimate comics brawler), the point is that at some point Zoom's massive damage output doesn't add up to an instant-kill due to his opponents durability, and that without combat feats where he is employing this strategy against opponents who are above high herald it is difficult to know where Zoom meets his limits. And again, I said in my first post that Darkseid loses. I simply questioned your logic, since it would seem to imply that Zoom CAN defeat guys like Validus, even though we all know he can't. That was the point of the analogy, not to say that Darkseid is on the same tier as that beast. Since you've said he can't defeat everyone who is trans-tier, where in your opinion, does he run into trouble if time-manipulation is not involved?

You see, unlike pre-crisis Validus (who possessed the pinnacle of durability/strength, and who I'd never give Zoom the nod against) we know the proverbial 'cracking point' of current Darkseid's durability, via his numerous battles with Supes... Thus we also know that a 'full capacity' assault from Zoom is sufficient to reach that cracking point... Except WAY faster.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This brings up a good question though.. can you name someone on the Trans tier that can beat Zoom in your opinion Galan?

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, you don't seem to understand what I am getting at... Superman's punches have wrecked Darkseid a few times in the past. At full capacity, Zoom can hit equally as hard as Superman, except much, much faster. 1+1=?

You see, unlike pre-crisis Validus (who possessed the pinnacle of durability/strength, and who I'd never give Zoom the nod against) we know the proverbial 'cracking point' of current Darkseid's durability, via his numerous battles with Supes... Thus we also know that a 'full capacity' assault from Zoom is sufficient to reach that cracking point... Except WAY faster.

It's all about durability. If said character can weather the initial blitz from Zoom, and is fast enough to counter with some sort of attack, then chances are they can/will beat him.

No, I understand perfectly in regards to Darkseid, and agree (as has been clear from my first post). Your admission that at some point durability does become an issue was all i was looking for, because in your earlier posts it seemed to me that you were implying that durability (unless of the classic juggernaut kind) was useless against Zoom.