Libya

Started by inimalist17 pages

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/world/africa/truckloads-of-libyan-militiamen-attack-prime-ministers-office-in-tripoli.html

Offices of Premier Attacked in Libya

CAIRO — Truckloads of armed men attacked the Tripoli headquarters of Libya’s interim prime minister on Tuesday, in a new demonstration of the lawlessness pervading the capital just weeks before a scheduled national election.

Officials of the interim Libyan government said that at least four people were killed, and news agencies reported that ambulances had rushed to the scene. The prime minister, Abdel Rahim el-Keeb, was reportedly away from the building at the time of the attack.

The attackers were believed to be militiamen from the Nafusah Mountains southwest of the capital, who were demanding payment for their work in fighting the forces of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi and securing the area after his defeat. The interim government recently suspended a plan to pay such fighters because of rampant corruption, prompting protests.

Municipal elections in Tripoli that were planned for last Saturday were postponed until after the scheduled voting next month for a national assembly.

Security in the capital is negligible, and gunfights between armed groups from rival neighborhoods or towns are a frequent occurrence in its streets. In recent weeks, one militia shot up the lobby of the luxury hotel that serves as the de facto headquarters of the governing Transitional National Council because of an argument over an unpaid hotel bill. Another militia kidnapped and later released two of the council’s members.

“You know that security here is a big joke,” Fathi Baja, a council member, said at the time. With an antiaircraft gun mounted on a pickup truck, he said, “you can do whatever you want — nobody can stop you.”

and, a 9 page NYT article describing the near lawlessness and environment of torture and abuse that now is omnipresent in Libya

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/magazine/in-libya-the-captors-have-become-the-captive.html?_r=2&smid=tw-share

Originally posted by inimalist
and, a 9 page NYT article describing the near lawlessness and environment of torture and abuse that now is omnipresent in Libya

I know this is serious business and many good people are dying or have died...but...

Omnipresent? Jesus Christ! awesome

... ****, also messed up the is/are there too...

EDIT: but yes, there is no government to speak of, there is no civil society at all... The only place where this may not be "omnipresent" are the oil fields, which are, of course, already shipping oil to NATO allies.

Because this was a humanitarian war, is what I mean.

Unintended consequences!

Bet you they regret sodomizing Gaddafi with a sharp-object now.

Originally posted by Robtard
Bet you they regret sodomizing Gaddafi with a sharp-object now.

Everyone wants to be the chef over there...but the extreme majority need to sit down, stfu, and get on with their lives.

"But they live in a desert with nothing...but oil and mining operations."

That can be quite profitable, iirc. More farming is needed.

Originally posted by Robtard
Bet you they regret sodomizing Gaddafi with a sharp-object now.

interesting fact, the Canadian mission, as part of NATO, in Libya ended up costing 7 times more than we were told it did

you know, the mission to protect civilians

Originally posted by dadudemon
Everyone wants to be the chef over there...but the extreme majority need to sit down, stfu, and get on with their lives.

the big issue is that the militias wont disarm and the government wont pay them what they promised, and the state has no power to make the militias do what they want (lacking any army that isn't comprised of militias)

Originally posted by dadudemon
More farming is needed.

ironically, Gaddafi invested over 25 billion into what is known as the Great Manmade River, a project that brought fresh water for irrigation into the middle of the desert.

I can't foresee any real improvement to the project in coming years:

On 22 July, during the 2011 Libyan civil war, one of the two plants making pipes for the project, the Brega Plant, was hit by a NATO air strike. At a press conference on 26 July, NATO explained that rockets had been fired from within the plant area, and that military material, including multiple rocket launchers, was stored there according to intelligence findings, presenting a photo showing at BM-21 MRL as an example.

In addition to the attacks on the factories, NATO destroyed sections of the GMMR pipeline itself in an effort to "protect civilians". Detractors of the NATO strike point out that under international law, attacking essential civilian infrastructure is a war crime. 70% of Libya's civilian population depend on the piped supply.

^Don't feel bad, the Iraq war cost thousands of times more than what was initially told. So it seems your guys are either more honest and/or better at math.

lol, touche

Originally posted by inimalist
the big issue is that the militias wont disarm and the government wont pay them what they promised, and the state has no power to make the militias do what they want (lacking any army that isn't comprised of militias)

They should hire Death Squads from the more southern African countries at a cheaper price than what they owe now to wipe out the mercenaries they don't want to pay.

I hear Mali might be able to help them with that

Well Libya is officially a shithole. Nice going, NATO.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Well Libya is officially a shithole. Nice going, NATO.

It was pretty much a shithole before, there was just a surface veneer of prosperity and stability enforced by secret police deathsquads and backed by oil money.

Libya has just traded problems, going from totalitarian oppression and bureaucratic corruption to lawlessness.

The only possible lesson here for NATO is that if they're going to intervene they can't do it halfway. Either send troops in and enforce reconstruction or stay out of it, it's just cowardly and irresponsible to kill the guy you don't like, claim you did a good deed, and then leave the people to their own devices when you know they're not well organized and they're dealing with internal divisions.

But to say it's as simple as "way to **** up NATO" is oversimplifying the problem and ignoring the context. I don't see how Libya could have come out of the Civil War as a stable country, even if Gadaffi had crushed the rebels his first priority would be consolidating his power and shoring up his defenses--not helping rebuild his country. And no, those things aren't synonymous as Gadaffi's gimping of his own armed forces due to paranoia shows.

There are nuances of evilness and shitholeness. It just went worse than before.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
There are nuances of evilness and shitholeness. It just went worse than before.

Not really.

I think the situations are incomparable, like I said, they've just traded totalitarianism for chaos.

Some people are more happy, some people are less happy. Many people are worse off. But at least without Gadaffi there's some chance that things will get better in the future. It's just not assured, and looking less likely by the day.

I wonder what Assad thinks about this...

Originally posted by Lestov16
I wonder what Assad thinks about this...

Assad actually condemned Gadaffi and didn't drag his heels much in recognizing the NTC government, whereas Saudi Arabia (so far as I know) has yet to recognize them.

Of course he didn't care one way or another about Libya, except as a lesson on how not to handle a rebellion.

Assad probably thinks that Gadaffi should have used chemical weapons to put the uprising down.

Edit: Apparently he didn't officially recognize them, but he did vote for them to assume the UN Libya seat.

Originally posted by inimalist
the big issue is that the militias wont disarm and the government wont pay them what they promised, and the state has no power to make the militias do what they want (lacking any army that isn't comprised of militias)

ironically, Gaddafi invested over 25 billion into what is known as the Great Manmade River, a project that brought fresh water for irrigation into the middle of the desert.

I can't foresee any real improvement to the project in coming years:


I saw an article recently that claimed that a team of Hydrologists had discovered Africa's largest underground aquifer right under the Libyan desert.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I saw an article recently that claimed that a team of Hydrologists had discovered Africa's largest underground aquifer right under the Libyan desert.

I hadn't seen that. It would be a huge deal if true though.