Naruto(family fued) fight

Originally posted by King Kandy
I agree, everyone has a little baggage. Its the people with endless, whining baggage that I don't like. That's like saying I should like the KKK because everyone is a little racist.

How did Madara push him into insanity? He just told him a totally true fact. He's not the one who said "you should destroy Konoha", Sasuke completely came up with that part on his own.

If Sasuke is responsible for his own actions, that means by the very definition that it is his fault. Responsibility = owning up to your own actions. Nobody forced Sasuke to decide to destroy Konoha, in fact Madara even went out of his way to point out that that is NOT what Itachi would have wanted.

Well for a second there you make them sound like, pfft, teenagers. People complain in real life for a lot of things and none of them have half the baggage as a lot of these characters.

Except Madara made it seem like everything Itachi said was a lie. Which is not true as far as the Kyuubi incident goes, which is what led to the Uchiha getting screwed over in the end. Madara painted Itachi in such a nice light but basically made Konoha look like scum. And of course the guy who is telling you, in so far as you know, the truth is more appealing than the people who killed your family. Not that Sasuke likes Madara.

Indeed, but he is still insane because of Madara. Sasuke answered that by saying that pretending to accept Itachi's will would be nothing but words. I see the logic behind the insanity. Itachi made Sasuke live his life through hatred so it's not wonder the kid went off the deep end when his conception of reality was shattered for the second time and started wanted to kill left and right.

But that's what it is so I mean, what else is there?

See King Kandy's post. Though Sasuke's personality problems are not interesting in the slightest and have been driven into the ground over the course of the manga. Its not fun to watch Sasuke act like a pissy retard.

Indeed. Gaara was much worse. He killed people purely because it gave him an erection. Sasuke has only just started that and even now he is picky on who he wants to kill(Konoha seems to be his main target and he does not seem to give a shit about anyone else). Gaara would kill freaking anyone.

Gaara at least has a reason to kill people. He was justifying his existence in his own way an it made sense in his own ****ed up serial killer logic. Sasuke tried to kill Karin because............ because. 😐

So was Pain. And other villains.

Hint:

Spoiler:
You're not supposed to like the villians.

Though Pain was equally lame imo. My pain is greater than yours because my dog died! Plus.... that fight... 😘

Why would you look for logic in someone who has literally gone insane for good reason?

Because he hasn't gone insane for good reason. He was perfectly fine up until the Kage summit then BAM craziness mountain! Seriously, why is he insane? Becuse his clan was kiled? No, he was fine for most of the manga. A dick, but not crazy. Itachi? No again, he's fine after Itachi's death up until after the Bee fight. Madara? Madara hasn't done jack shit to him.

Sasuke's character at present has no purpose beyond killing people. His character really has no where to go at present. But that is the point. His character has really only one thing left: Being saved by Naruto. Which is the ultimate challenge of our protagonist. If he weren't off his rocker, if he could be reasoned with, if he had reasonable goals, he wouldn't be the ultimate challenge for Naruto.

Christ that is lame as shit. No offense but it is.

Well that is the thing about character arcs: They usually involve change. The same can be said for Naruto, Sakura, Gaara, etc. Sasuke just happens to be a negative example.

If you mean negative as in 'utterly awful' then yes. You see, those character arcs actually made sense and its enjoyable to see them play out. Sasuke is painful to watch because of the total 180 into crazyville he makes.

Considering he is an example of the fallen hero, this makes perfect sense.

The Fallen Hero archetype only works when teh audience is saddened over the characters fall. With Sasuke I'm just baffled and pissed off over it. It fails on every concievable level.

Plus.... he was never a hero. 😬

Not...really. I can not honestly remember many flashbacks to Naruto's childhood that don't involve Sasuke or a pbunch of people standing behind him while he is looking sad. Gaara actually had memorable examples in his backstory, like retrieving the kids ball and being called a monster when trying to do something nice.

Just because he didnt get extensive flashbacks doesn't make him poorly explored. There doesn't need to be any flashbacks, everything we need to know is presented to us purely through visuals alone. Thats not bad, thats brilliant and subtle. And the way his pain is linked to those of others like Neji and Gaara is, again, brilliant.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well for a second there you make them sound like, pfft, teenagers. People complain in real life for a lot of things and none of them have half the baggage as a lot of these characters.

Except Madara made it seem like everything Itachi said was a lie. Which is not true as far as the Kyuubi incident goes, which is what led to the Uchiha getting screwed over in the end. Madara painted Itachi in such a nice light but basically made Konoha look like scum. And of course the guy who is telling you, in so far as you know, the truth is more appealing than the people who killed your family. Not that Sasuke likes Madara.

Indeed, but he is still insane because of Madara. Sasuke answered that by saying that pretending to accept Itachi's will would be nothing but words. I see the logic behind the insanity. Itachi made Sasuke live his life through hatred so it's not wonder the kid went off the deep end when his conception of reality was shattered for the second time and started wanted to kill left and right.

That would be fine except that the programmed amaterasu is a clear sign that Madara was up to no good. Sasuke justifies everything he does on the basis of Itachi so there is no way he should be following Madara since that's exactly the opposite of what Itachi wanted. And what has following Madara got him? Its gotten him to pick fights with people he had nothing against, and getting beaten to the verge of death multiple times in the process. Only a fool would keep listening to someone who offers such bad advice.

No, he's not insane because of Madara. If he couldn't handle the truth how is that Madara's fault? Its nobody's fault but his own. Like I said, there were CLEAR indications that Madara was up to no good, so Sasuke should have known better. Its his own fault that hearing the truth lead him to "I must kill the konoha peoplz!" Madara actually told him straight to his face what a dumb idea that was. So how is it his fault?

Originally posted by Nephthys
See King Kandy's post. Though Sasuke's personality problems are not interesting in the slightest and have been driven into the ground over the course of the manga. Its not fun to watch Sasuke act like a pissy retard.

Which is why I find it ironic that you're complaining about him right now when we haven't spent time on Sasuke for a while

Originally posted by Nephthys
Gaara at least has a reason to kill people. He was justifying his existence in his own way an it made sense in his own ****ed up serial killer logic. Sasuke tried to kill Karin because............ because. 😐

Because she was worthless and in the way. In the way I can see. I see no reason to let Karin outside except for the fact that she can sense. Just keep her home and bite on her when you need to. She clearly can't handle herself when a dying old man takes her hostage.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hint:

Spoiler:
You're not supposed to like the villians.

Though Pain was equally lame imo. My pain is greater than yours because my dog died! Plus.... that fight... 😘

People do like villains. Rooting for them on the other hand is something you're not supposed to do. But I'm not rooting for Sasuke so is all good.

Eh, extremist. And yeah, the fight was pretty ugly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he [b]hasn't gone insane for good reason. He was perfectly fine up until the Kage summit then BAM craziness mountain! Seriously, why is he insane? Becuse his clan was kiled? No, he was fine for most of the manga. A dick, but not crazy. Itachi? No again, he's fine after Itachi's death up until after the Bee fight. Madara? Madara hasn't done jack shit to him.[/B]

Well he saw Danzo at the summit. And was planning to kill him. And then the Samurai got in the way and he thought his prey would get away. That made him mad but he was insane before then.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v45/c416/13.html

Originally posted by Nephthys
Christ that is lame as shit. No offense but it is.

Yes. I like it when my protagonists ultimate enemy has no build up to him.

Saving Sasuke is the main plot of the story. Fighting Madara just happens to be there too. We can't see any challenge in saving Sasuke if it doesn't appear that he would be impossible to save.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If you mean negative as in 'utterly awful' then yes. You see, those character arcs actually made sense and its enjoyable to see them play out. Sasuke is painful to watch because of the total 180 into crazyville he makes.

Not really a 180 considering it doesn't come out of nowhere.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Fallen Hero archetype only works when teh audience is saddened over the characters fall. With Sasuke I'm just baffled and pissed off over it. It fails on every concievable level.

Plus.... he was never a hero. 😬

It's a good thing you are pissed about it because not all Fallen Heroes require sympathy. Any negative emotion towards them will work nicely.

Well that's simply not true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because he didnt get extensive flashbacks doesn't make him poorly explored. There doesn't need to be any flashbacks, everything we need to know is presented to us purely through visuals alone. Thats not bad, thats brilliant and subtle. And the way his pain is linked to those of others like Neji and Gaara is, again, brilliant.

I don't really see it. Naruto's main interaction with Neji consisted of Neji calling him a loser and Naruto telling him to stfu. More of a loser defines all odds deal than the tragic outcast thing. Gaara its handled better but I still don't like it. I know Naruto is an outcast but that's because of what I'm told more than anything else.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Right... I don't make a habit of listening to real-life teenagers ***** about their lives, so why would I want to read about it either?

I dunno. That's what Naruto has been since day one. It just also happens to have fighting in it.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That would be fine except that the programmed amaterasu is a clear sign that Madara was up to no good. Sasuke justifies everything he does on the basis of Itachi so there is no way he should be following Madara since that's exactly the opposite of what Itachi wanted. And what has following Madara got him? Its gotten him to pick fights with people he had nothing against, and getting beaten to the verge of death multiple times in the process. Only a fool would keep listening to someone who offers such bad advice.

Or you can take it for what it was: Itachi did not want Sasuke to learn the truth because Sasuke, regardless of what Itachi wanted, really could not handle the truth. And yes, it got him in a lot of trouble. But it also got him Danzo's head. So I suppose the long term rewards are worth it to Sasuke.

Originally posted by King Kandy
No, he's not insane because of Madara. If he couldn't handle the truth how is that Madara's fault? Its nobody's fault but his own. Like I said, there were CLEAR indications that Madara was up to no good, so Sasuke should have known better. Its his own fault that hearing the truth lead him to "I must kill the konoha peoplz!" Madara actually told him straight to his face what a dumb idea that was. So how is it his fault?

It is Madara's fault for telling him the truth that he was never supposed to know. To Sasuke, Madara doesn't seem that bad a guy. Working with him allows for revenge, which Sasuke is fine with. Madara hasn't done anything bad to Sasuke that would make Sasuke resent the guy.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Of course, Minato is not likely to look directly at the Uchiha eyes and is likely not as awful as his son at genjutsu. That and he can always use summons to break it for him. Tsukuyomi is the exception obviously but Itachi wouldn't likely start with that.

Perhaps, but Itachi does not need his eyes to trap someone. He can always give Minato the finger. 313
He'll need to have summons out before he gets trapped, if he wants to use them to escape. By that time, Itachi could likely just torch him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Part 1 Naruto was damn cool. He was a guy who never gave up and always scraped through by being a badass.

Disagree. I always thought his loneliness and outcast status made him a very interesting character. His scene with Gaara was one of the best in the entire series.

Determined badass? Or determined jackass? The Gaara and Sasuke fights were about the only times I thought Part 1 Naruto was interesting. Other times, he was just annoying. Sasuke was far more interesting than he was in Part 1.

A status that was quickly left behind after the Gaara fight, and picked up again at VotE, and dropped again after the business with Akatsuki & Gaara.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I dunno. That's what Naruto has been since day one. It just also happens to have fighting in it.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Or you can take it for what it was: Itachi did not want Sasuke to learn the truth because Sasuke, regardless of what Itachi wanted, really could not handle the truth. And yes, it got him in a lot of trouble. But it also got him Danzo's head. So I suppose the long term rewards are worth it to Sasuke.

Sasuke will wear Madara's uniform and follow his every command and still has the stupidity to tell him "I don't work for you". The bottom line is that he will fall for any stupid idea Madara puts in his head regardless of if it benefits him or not. That makes for a very weak character imo.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It is Madara's fault for telling him the truth that he was never supposed to know. To Sasuke, Madara doesn't seem that bad a guy. Working with him allows for revenge, which Sasuke is fine with. Madara hasn't done anything bad to Sasuke that would make Sasuke resent the guy.

As far as telling him the truth, oh please. Madara didn't force Sasuke to react the way he did. His brother died to save Konoha, and the lesson Sasuke draws from this is "I will respect my brother by destroying Konoha". Is that Madara's fault? No, it isn't. In fact, Madara told him to his face that that line of thinking was completely wrong and not at all respectful to Itachi. So if anything, Madara was actually a moderating influence.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Naruto is far from perfect. I read it for the fighting and the non-whiny characters. It could definitely be improved if it included more of that and less of the whining. And the whining wasn't NEARLY as bad in part I.

Part 1 had more whiny characters than Part 2 iirc...They got better though...Until they get revived and junk.

Originally posted by King Kandy
What about Killerbee? That got Sasuke absolutely nothing but a bad beating. There was little motive for it, other than to fulfill Madara's wishes. That said, the Danzo thing is equally stupid in its own right; Itachi followed Danzo's orders because he recognized they were necessary to save the country. Sasuke tells Danzo "don't speak to me of Itachi", but it sounds like Danzo actually has much more respect for Itachi's sacrifice than Sasuke does.

Sasuke will wear Madara's uniform and follow his every command and still has the stupidity to tell him "I don't work for you". The bottom line is that he will fall for any stupid idea Madara puts in his head regardless of if it benefits him or not. That makes for a very weak character imo.

It got him practice, which is what he wanted. It was also presented as an opportunity to get more power so it makes sense. And no, he doesn't. He said Itachi betrayed Konoha. Without even considering the fact that Madara, the guy who was there the night of the Uchiha massacre, might have told Sasuke instead. Itachi's sacrifice was so great that calling him a traitor is basically asking for it.

Indeed. But it really isn't because Sasuke is stupid. Madara is teh Chess Master. He knows how to push Sasuke's buttons.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I would hope that getting sent on pointless suicide missions that accomplish nothing would count as having done something bad to him. If Sasuke can't see that the things Madara has him do are not in his best interest (in fact, in most cases they directly oppose them: Sasuke wants to respect Itachi's sacrifice, but Madara's plans actually render the sacrifice pointless).

As far as telling him the truth, oh please. Madara didn't force Sasuke to react the way he did. His brother died to save Konoha, and the lesson Sasuke draws from this is "I will respect my brother by destroying Konoha". Is that Madara's fault? No, it isn't. In fact, Madara told him to his face that that line of thinking was completely wrong and not at all respectful to Itachi. So if anything, Madara was actually a moderating influence.

Madara has also saved his life so it balances out. Madara never gives Sasuke an order. He just knows how to get Sasuke to do what he wants.

Telling Sasuke the truth is what caused him to go insane though. Itachi predicted that possibility and did not want it to happen. Did not work. And it did not help that Madara painted Konoha in a rather bad light compared to Itachi, along with making it seem like the 3rd Hokage was the only redeemable person and he's gone now so hey, there isn't no one good left. And I really do think Madara did that for show. He does want Sasuke to think he is making his own decisions when he really is just being led along like a puppet.

Originally posted by King Kandy

As far as telling him the truth, oh please. Madara didn't force Sasuke to react the way he did. His brother died to save Konoha, and the lesson Sasuke draws from this is "I will respect my brother by destroying Konoha". Is that Madara's fault? No, it isn't. In fact, Madara told him to his face that that line of thinking was completely wrong and not at all respectful to Itachi. So if anything, Madara was actually a moderating influence.

Sasuke was mentally unstable due to his brother's mental torture and life philosophies. Who knows Madara might've been using reverse psycology on the poor sap

It still not as bad as being a guy around his 30's being convinced by a 16 year old boy to die for said boy's village of whom are responsible for killing his parents, ravaging his land by warring with other countries, and pushing his newly found organization to the brink of collapse.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

Telling Sasuke the truth is what caused him to go insane though. Itachi predicted that possibility and did not want it to happen. Did not work. And it did not help that Madara painted Konoha in a rather bad light compared to Itachi, along with making it seem like the 3rd Hokage was the only redeemable person and he's gone now so hey, there isn't no one good left. And I really do think Madara did that for show. He does want Sasuke to think he is making his own decisions when he really is just being led along like a puppet.

You'd think that Itachi would tell his fellow Akatsuki members about this in order to get at least someone to listen to him. An attack on Madara w/back-up could've been another alternative but not likely. Looking back both Itachi, Madara, and in a weird way Naruto led to Sasuke's path to darkness.

Back on the topc in this thread I wonder if Minato can get around two Susanoos or if Itachi can just incinerate his Kunai or something.

FTG can go through matter so if he tags them he can get through.