Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The lasso is mentioned too much on this board imo. And I'm pretty sure it didn't go too well for her the last time she tried using it on Marvel.Team 1 probably.
She's depowered/beat him twice with it off the top of my head. Once in War of the Gods and again when he was possessed by the Sin of Gluttony and had stolen more of the Power of Shazam from Black Adam and Freddy and Mary.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
She's depowered/beat him twice with it off the top of my head. Once in War of the Gods and again when he was possessed by the Sin of Gluttony and had stolen more of the Power of Shazam from Black Adam and Freddy and Mary.
Really? Damn. I remember Diana wrapping the lasso around Marvel and being shaken off or something similar. I also remember her being unable to get the lasso around him at another point. Maybe the last one was Superman.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Really? Damn. I remember Diana wrapping the lasso around Marvel and being shaken off or something similar. I also remember her being unable to get the lasso around him at another point. Maybe the last one was Superman.
Yeah, with Superman, at least in Sacrifice, he was moving way too fast and erratic to get a bead on him, and while Marvel is generally portrayed as being physically a peer to him and I would imagine would try to avoid the lasso, Diana's got at least two instances of nabbing him with it and using its powers against him, so the precedence that she can do it is set.
Without it, she could probably outfight Billy for a good while, but Teth would fare a better shot.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, with Superman, at least in Sacrifice, he was moving way too fast and erratic to get a bead on him, and while Marvel is generally portrayed as being physically a peer to him and I would imagine would try to avoid the lasso, Diana's got at least two instances of nabbing him with it and using its powers against him, so the precedence that she can do it is set.Without it, she could probably outfight Billy for a good while, but Teth would fare a better shot.
I also remember Diana got the lasso around a distracted Cap and he actively resisted; it was all Diana could do to hold onto the lasso. I also remember a power sharing -and depowered- Marvel with a broken arm holding his own against Diana. Plus she had an assist from Warrior. IIRC, at one point he beat her to her knees and stole her lasso.
Personally, I favor Marvel against Diana. Stronger, more invulnerable. Plus she's a woman, so automatically inferior. She's more skilled, but even as she herself noted, Marvel is a really good combatant so she's not making him look bad or anything. The fight most Diana fans post is from War of the Gods when Marvel was mind controlled and his powers were slowly being drained by the God of War. He still managed nothing less than a stalemate.
Edit: Didn't the Marvel's also resist the lasso's power during the All-Star Squadron and Crisis on the Infinite Earths storyline as well?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I also remember Diana got the lasso around a distracted Cap and he actively resisted; it was all Diana could do to hold onto the lasso. I also remember a power sharing -and depowered- Marvel with a broken arm holding his own against Diana. Plus she had an assist from Warrior. IIRC, at one point he beat her to her knees and stole her lasso.Personally, I favor Marvel against Diana. Stronger, more invulnerable. Plus she's a woman, so automatically inferior. She's more skilled, but even as she herself noted, Marvel is a really good combatant so she's not making him look bad or anything. The fight most Diana fans post is from War of the Gods when Marvel was mind controlled and his powers were slowly being drained by the God of War. He still managed nothing less than a stalemate.
Edit: Didn't the Marvel's also resist the lasso's power during the All-Star Squadron and Crisis on the Infinite Earths storyline as well?
Yeah, that bit was in Underworld Unleashed, when Neron mind controlled the JLA to get Marvel, iirc.
As far as Virtue and Vice goes, after reading it, that was an amped Captain Marvel who was depowered by the lasso and Ollie, who had used its power as Diana was still connected to the lasso albeit knocked to the ground.
As far as CM vs WW goes, I would give him the edge physically against Diana, and while he's not a bad combatant, he's definitely outclassed in skill. Billy's also a damn nice kid and argueably holds back more and is less willing to cut loose than Superman whereas Black Adam could give a shit most of the time. I will say the lasso's ability to depower him is the single greatest advantage Diana has on any of the Marvel Family.
I'd have to check that out. As far as I know, the Power of Shazam shouldn't give him a resistence to the truth factor of the lasso once it ensnares him.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, that bit was in Underworld Unleashed, when Neron mind controlled the JLA to get Marvel, iirc.As far as Virtue and Vice goes, after reading it, that was an amped Captain Marvel who was depowered by the lasso and Ollie, who had used its power as Diana was still connected to the lasso albeit knocked to the ground.
IIRC, it wasn't Neron who was actually controlling the JLA, it was just the dimension they were in that influenced the JLA, turning them evil. Marvel was just immune due to the purity of his soul. If memory serves correctly, Marvel stalemated most of the assembled heroes.
Was he amped? It's been a while. If so, that makes Diana look better. As far as I can tell without going back and re-reading their encounters, Marvel seems to be able to resist the lasso when in his own mind. I don't think it's an auto win. Either way, she doesn't pull it out nearly as often against top tiers as some people pretend.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
IIRC, it wasn't Neron who was actually controlling the JLA, it was just the dimension they were in that influenced the JLA. If memory serves correctly, Marvel stalemated most of the assembled heroes.Was he amped? I'm not too clear. As far as I can tell without going back and re-reading their encounters, Marvel seems to be able to resist the lasso when in his own mind. I don't think it's an auto win. Either way, she doesn't pull it out nearly as often against top tiers as some people pretend.
It was either Neron controlling the heroes or the influence of hell itself. The purpose was for Neron to ultimately ensnare Marvel's pure soul and take it as his own, but was rebuffed by just how pure Marvel was.
Yeah, he was amped something fierce. He took back all of the Power of Shazam, Black Adam's power, and once he was depowered, all of the power he had stolen flowed back into the Wizard who dispelled the Sin Demons. I don't think the lasso is an auto-win by virtue of her having it, but if the lasso gets wrapped around either of them and they're asked "What's the name of the Wizard?", they're transforming back into their mortal forms. Diana and Superman both know they invoke the name of the Wizard to get their powers, so it's entirely plausible and reasonable for Diana to attempt to achieve this depowering means.
The lasso thing isn't a sure thing but it's at least an edge, and in the hands of a combatant who's already at roughly similar overall level.
And the team-work thing. Superman and WW are a well-oiled machine. WW can help Superman take more advantage of his range edge.
Team 2 more than not.
JakeTheBank
Yeah, with Superman, at least in Sacrifice, he was moving way too fast and erratic to get a bead on him,
Yea, WW does try but he evades here, then he goes for her wrist so she'd have a harder time trying again.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
As far as CM vs WW goes, I would give him the edge physically against Diana, and while he's not a bad combatant, he's definitely outclassed in skill. Billy's also a damn nice kid and argueably holds back more and is less willing to cut loose than Superman whereas Black Adam could give a shit most of the time. I will say the lasso's ability to depower him is the single greatest advantage Diana has on any of the Marvel Family.I'd have to check that out. As far as I know, the Power of Shazam shouldn't give him a resistence to the truth factor of the lasso once it ensnares him.
I agree. I'd argue his physically superior and has a raw speed advantage. I think Diana is clearly more skilled, but not enough to win the fight. In both of the fights they've had, Billy has been at a disadvantage and has managed no less than a stalemated.
I dislike that argument. Billy is a 16 year old whose been at the superhero game longer than Barry, Diana, Hal etc. and almost as long as Superman. His no idiot and his archenemy is a ruthless, powerful, experienced, and skilled mad man -Black Adam- who his managed to stalemate or beat -albeit with some help- on numerous occasions. Billy has been fighting demons, magicians and all sorts of monsters since the age of 9. His kind heart isn't a disadvantage when the going gets tough.
From what I remember, it has.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It was either Neron controlling the heroes or the influence of hell itself. The purpose was for Neron to ultimately ensnare Marvel's pure soul and take it as his own, but was rebuffed by just how pure Marvel was.Yeah, he was amped something fierce. He took back all of the Power of Shazam, Black Adam's power, and once he was depowered, all of the power he had stolen flowed back into the Wizard who dispelled the Sin Demons. I don't think the lasso is an auto-win by virtue of her having it, but if the lasso gets wrapped around either of them and they're asked "What's the name of the Wizard?", they're transforming back into their mortal forms. Diana and Superman both know they invoke the name of the Wizard to get their powers, so it's entirely plausible and reasonable for Diana to attempt to achieve this depowering means.
Yea, I'm pretty sure it wasn't Neron, but hell.
Damn, I don't remember that. Been a while, my bad. The story where he beats her down and takes her lasso is from Virtue and Vice though so you're more than likely in the right.
I think out of 10 fights, she'd probably use it about 4 times. It'll get her 1 or 2 wins, with Billy dodging or resisting it long enough to break free for the other fights. I'd give Marvel 6-7/10 against Diana. She's really formidable, but I think it's his fight to lose.
It would probably be used even less against other top tiers imo.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I think Diana is clearly more skilled, but not enough to win the fight. In both of the fights they've had, Billy has been at a disadvantage and has managed no less than a stalemated.
Wonder Woman's also never used her tiara or similar on him, or gone as harsh on him as she did on Supes in Sacrifice. Wonder Woman is definitely capable of winning.
I dislike that argument. Billy is a 16 year old whose been at the superhero game longer than Barry, Diana, Hal etc. and almost as long as Superman.
Depending on when in continuity you're talking about, she showed up really soon after Superman. If there's a difference, it's maybe a year or two.
And, before she became a hero, she was under intense training since she was a little kid, as that's how Amazons roll.
Originally posted by Q99
Wonder Woman's also never used her tiara or similar on him, or gone as harsh on him as she did on Supes in Sacrifice. Wonder Woman is definitely capable of winning.
Due to Billy's mystical based resistance, I'd heavily argue that he'd be more resistant to the tiara than Clark unless I'm forgetting something. Also, with his level of speed, she'd have a hard time even hitting him. Personally, I don't think it's worth the effort. When she struck Clark, he saw Doomsday standing feet away.
The bracers would be effective in close combat ala Power Girl, but not enough to give her the edge for the majority.
His fought her when she was going for the kill at least once. Underworld Unleashed I believe. And she was pretty serious during War of the Gods IIRC. She wasn't as desperate as she was in sacrifice however.
Originally posted by Q99
Depending on when in continuity you're talking about, she showed up really soon after Superman. If there's a difference, it's maybe a year or two.And, before she became a hero, she was under intense training since she was a little kid, as that's how Amazons roll.
IIRC, it was revealed during Winnick's run that Billy started his career the same year as Superman. From what I can tell, that's the same year as Batman but a year or two earlier than Diana, Barry etc. Not sure if that's change though. I kind of gave up on DC.
I'm not arguing his more experienced than her or anything. My main point is that using his age against him is silly. His pure heart doesn't make
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I agree. I'd argue his physically superior and has a raw speed advantage. I think Diana is clearly more skilled, but not enough to win the fight. In both of the fights they've had, Billy has been at a disadvantage and has managed no less than a stalemated.I dislike that argument. Billy is a 16 year old whose been at the superhero game longer than Barry, Diana, Hal etc. and almost as long as Superman. His no idiot and his archenemy is a ruthless, powerful, experienced, and skilled mad man -Black Adam- who his managed to stalemate or beat -albeit with some help- on numerous occasions. Billy has been fighting demons, magicians and all sorts of monsters since the age of 9. His kind heart isn't a disadvantage when the going gets tough.
From what I remember, it has.
Yea, I'm pretty sure it wasn't Neron, but hell.
Damn, I don't remember that. Been a while, my bad. The story where he beats her down and takes her lasso is from Virtue and Vice though so you're more than likely in the right.
I think out of 10 fights, she'd probably use it about 4 times. It'll get her 1 or 2 wins, with Billy dodging or resisting it long enough to break free for the other fights. I'd give Marvel 6-7/10 against Diana. She's really formidable, but I think it's his fight to lose.
It would probably be used even less against other top tiers imo.
Yeah, Diana's not going to win a contest of strength or a race with him, but she'd hang with him about as well as she does Clark, probably a bit better.
And Billy's canonical issues are weird for me. You're talking about First Thunder, right? By Winnick? It's weird because he says Marvel's essentially the third major superhero to arrive in the DCU right after Batman and Superman, but before Hal, Barry, and Diana. And yet, he's still portrayed as a 16 year old kid when he should be at least as old as Dick Grayson. And it doesn't help that his own ongoing and graphic novel and various DC timelines portrayed him as being a new hero debuting quite some time after the "Big Seven". I chalk that shit up to DC's horrible timeline maintainence and needless retcons coupled with their mismanaging of the Marvel/Shazam! Franchise period. And I'm not knocking Billy being a good kid, far from it; he's been portrayed as being more "pure" than Clark himself for a while, now. It's just that he holds back a lot due to his own personality and CIS, save encounters with Black Adam. Even when he's in danger of being killed, he's holding back. Says a lot about his character and in a good way.
I'll try to find my UU stuff to confirm one way or the other; good showing for Marvel nevertheless as he was holding his own while being injured.
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/StealShazam1.jpg
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/StealShazam.jpg
^ From Virtue and Vice, Marvel steals back the Power of Shazam from his family, and that of Black Adam's, whose powers come from different sources albeit similar in properties.
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/LassoShazam.jpg
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/LassoShazam1.jpg
And the lasso, thanks to Ollie, manages to work on him despite him having all of the Marvel Family's power as well as Black Adam's. He resisted by not saying "Shazam!" right away, but it wasn't enough for the truth factor to be overridden. Based off that, I would say the lasso is going to work on a normal power level Billy or Adam.
All in all, I would say the argument is whether or not Diana would go for the lasso to use or be able to snare either one of them over whether or not it would work. Considering both her and Superman knows that the lasso has worked before, I think it's incredibly likely that Diana would attempt it and if she grabs either one, it's pretty much a done deal. Actually snaring either one of them is another story.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, Diana's not going to win a contest of strength or a race with him, but she'd hang with him about as well as she does Clark, probably a bit better.
I have no doubt she can hang. I'd never argue against that. I think she would do around as well as she has against Superman too. Which is why I give him the slight edge of 6-7/10.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And Billy's canonical issues are weird for me. You're talking about First Thunder, right? By Winnick? It's weird because he says Marvel's essentially the third major superhero to arrive in the DCU right after Batman and Superman, but before Hal, Barry, and Diana. And yet, he's still portrayed as a 16 year old kid when he should be at least as old as Dick Grayson. And it doesn't help that his own ongoing and graphic novel and various DC timelines portrayed him as being a new hero debuting quite some time after the "Big Seven". I chalk that shit up to DC's horrible timeline maintainence and needless retcons coupled with their mismanaging of the Marvel/Shazam! Franchise period.
Yup. It was a weird retcon no doubt but IIRC it was explained by time in his city being slowed down or some such and it not being noticed due to the subtlety of magic.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And I'm not knocking Billy being a good kid, far from it; he's been portrayed as being more "pure" than Clark himself for a while, now. It's just that he holds back a lot due to his own personality and CIS, save encounters with Black Adam. Even when he's in danger of being killed, he's holding back. Says a lot about his character and in a good way.
He does hold back a lot (As most high end strength men like Superman, Thor etc. do) but with the Wisdom of Solomon, his experience, and the goal to win, I don't think he'll hold back enough to give Diana the majority. His not going for the kill or anything of the sort mind you.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'll try to find my UU stuff to confirm one way or the other; good showing for Marvel nevertheless as he was holding his own while being injured.http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/StealShazam1.jpg
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/StealShazam.jpg
^ From Virtue and Vice, Marvel steals back the Power of Shazam from his family, and that of Black Adam's, whose powers come from different sources albeit similar in properties.
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/LassoShazam.jpg
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/LassoShazam1.jpg
Cool. I just don't have it on hand so I can't check. I deleted most of my DC stuff.
The scans weren't needed, I believed you, but much appreciated. Thanks. 👆
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And the lasso, thanks to Ollie, manages to work on him despite him having all of the Marvel Family's power as well as Black Adam's. He resisted by not saying "Shazam!" right away, but it wasn't enough for the truth factor to be overridden. Based off that, I would say the lasso is going to work on a normal power level Billy or Adam.
I think it's pretty obvious that the level of power Marvel has doesn't matter to the lasso. Based on what I've seen, I think it either fluctuates between writers or if you prefer a more in continuity reason, the more in control Marvel is, the better he resists it. Marvel has resisted it's affects to at least some degree around 3 times IIRC.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
All in all, I would say the argument is whether or not Diana would go for the lasso to use or be able to snare either one of them over whether or not it would work. Considering both her and Superman knows that the lasso has worked before, I think it's incredibly likely that Diana would attempt it and if she grabs either one, it's pretty much a done deal. Actually snaring either one of them is another story.
Yea, I think it's more likely that they would go for it against these two than other top tiers or heroes as I said, but getting it around them will be difficult. Superman will have his hands full with either Marvel or Black Adam, and Diana would need all her focus to hold her own in battle. You could argue the superior team work of team 2 would help but I don't think it's enough for the majority. I think saying she'd go for it 40% of the time is fair.
All in all, we really need a Captain Marvel ongoing. No offense to Diana, but she's been given plenty of opportunities. Too many imo.
I agree or at least understand where you're coming from with everything you're saying thus far, Rage.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
All in all, we really need a Captain Marvel ongoing. No offense to Diana, but she's been given plenty of opportunities. Too many imo.
QFT. 👆
Diana's always going to have a place in DC as she should; she's a mainstay. But phuck DC not giving Marvel the respect he deserves. The guy's been around since the damn forties and is an icon in the industry. Look at all the characters that are inspired or otherwise take concepts of him and use it for their own. The excuse that Captain Marvel can't do well in DC as it "takes away from/threatens Superman" is utter bullshit. I can't remember the last time Superman's titles have been some of DC's best selling ongoings or even that great to begin with.
