Originally posted by WhiteWitchKingi think the tentacle crown actually belongs to shuma gorathThe Serpent Crown is one of three crowns that includes the Tentacle Crown. Three crowns were made to channel each child's power. The Serpent Crown channels Set's power - thus Set is the darkest child of the Abyss. There's atleast more references to this "Abyss", differentiating the character from being Set.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
That's not even a retcon. It was just Hera's summarized version of the events. Essentially it was Pak trying to push Mikaboshi as the darkness before everything while never really explaining anything about established continuity.If the Demiurge never created Gaea and the Elder Gods, who created them and who did Gaea mate with to create Atum? Earth existed before the Elder Gods and the Demiurge; they came after it's creation. Pak didn't plan it out right but essentially he meant the Earth came into being from the void along with the rest of creation. If we take it as just Gaea, then we take it as is and Gaea would precede all other Elder Gods as well as they never mention any other gods coming into being but Gaea. All this makes no sense because it's establish by previous books that Gaea had siblings and a son who all came from the Demiurge. One version of the past by Hera doesn't all of a sudden retcon away the Demiurge's role as father of the Elder Gods and Gaea's consort.
Not sure what part of any of that retcons Gaea's history. Are you referring to the part where it says Gaea gathers all her children and grandchildren to mourn the end of creation? Because she technically is the mother of a lot of them and grandmother due to being Atum's mother. Atum released the energies of the Elder Gods and birthing the second generation of gods - so yeah she's their grandmother as well. There's no mention of anything else that says the Demiurge is retcon out of existence.
Demiurge hasn't been mentioned since the Serpent Crown Saga back in 1989. I don't even think he was mentioned in Mystic Arcana or Marvel : Tarot and those were pretty in-depth concerning the Elder Gods and their origins.
It may not make sense, but that's what was on panel. Gaea, until retconned again, preceded all other Elder Gods with the exception of Set.
You might want to read those books again. If anything, Set is just a mere child of something greater.[/b]According to Archon, Nova seeks to
- "awaken the darkest child." Who will
- "awaken his brothers" and they will
- "free their nameless father"
- "he is the darkness inside the dark. HE IS [B]THE ABYSS
- "Those who were touched by the Abyss made three crowns so the wearers can channel the power of the dark children."
You should follow your own advice. The Darkest Child was imprisoned on Mars. Set's NEVER been on Mars, let alone imprisoned there. He will awaken his other brothers and they will raise their Father :
The Serpent Crown is one of three crowns that includes the Tentacle Crown. Three crowns were made to channel each child's power. The Serpent Crown channels Set's power - thus Set is the darkest child of the Abyss. There's atleast more references to this "Abyss", differentiating the character from being Set.
No the Crowns found on Mars were created by the worshipers of the Darkest Child and "touch by the power of Abyss".
The cave where the Roxxon employees found the first of the three Mars Crowns :
See the mural? It appears that the three crowns make up one big crown with Set's visage adoring it.
The second Mars Crown Nova found by accident and was tempted to put on:
Furthermore, this Abyss is merely a shadow of Eternity's dreaming according to Archon. He doesn't predate the abstracts at all. Galactus predates 616 Eternity and Death. It doesn't even predate the Celestials because Archon says "since long before the Celestials and Devourer of Worlds arrived" - not long before they "came into being". In other words, this Abyss slept longer than even the Celestial and Galactus' first arrival to Earth. Being billions of years old doesn't put him older then the abstracts.
This is Worldmind speaking. Look at this scan, it seriously implies BEFORE they existed, backing up the Archon's story :
There's no true retconing here. Some stuff where touched but never really explained. Until it's expanded upon, this is just another vague new darkness.
Recapping -
The "Darkest Child" was imprisoned on Mars. His ascension would open the door to his Father's return. The Crowns found on Mars were a part of a larger crown. A Serpent Crown adorned with thorns and flanked by two crowns with writhing tentacles (exactly as depicted in the underground mural).
Set's spawned MANY MANY "children" and that's who the writers were referring to.
Worth noting, Set hasn't just made Serpent Crowns, there is also the Cobra Crown from Pre-Cataclysm Lemuria/Atlantis.
Originally posted by zopzopDemiurge hasn't been mentioned since the Serpent Crown Saga back in 1989. I don't even think he was mentioned in Mystic Arcana or Marvel : Tarot and those were pretty in-depth concerning the Elder Gods and their origins.
Lol, there's a lot of characters not mentioned in current comics. It doesn't mean there's a retcon.
It may not make sense, but that's what was on panel. Gaea, until retconned again, preceded all other Elder Gods with the exception of Set.
Keep trying because there was no retcon. And there's no mention of Set along with that story Hera told either. But you're going to point to the SA to make some kind point huh?
You should follow your own advice. The Darkest Child was imprisoned on Mars. Set's NEVER been on Mars, let alone imprisoned there. He will awaken his other brothers and they will raise their Father :No the Crowns found on Mars were created by the worshipers of the Darkest Child and "touch by the power of Abyss".
The cave where the Roxxon employees found the first of the three Mars Crowns :
See the mural? It appears that the three crowns make up one big crown with Set's visage adoring it.
The second Mars Crown Nova found by accident and was tempted to put on:
It's not Set just yet. Since when does Set Crown's include something called a tentalce crown? Set has tentacles now? And none of his children have tentacles either. Furthermore, Set is not a universal threat at all. I could by that a new character named Abyss is a universal threat but Set? Atum shit stomped him.
This is Worldmind speaking. Look at this scan, it seriously implies BEFORE they existed, backing up the Archon's story :
No, it backs up exactly my point.
- Technology is only millions of years old. Not even older than the formation of Earth much less the universe. The Celestials came millions of years later to this system after the systems formation. So it does back Archon's assertion that this Abyss or Set's slumber pre-Celestial and Galactus' ARRIVAL.
- Galactus came into being with Death and Eternity when the big bang began. How you can try to argue that Set is older than the abstracts is beyond ludicrous, and neither is this Abyss who's merely a shadow of Eternity's dream.
There's been no retcon of anything. If this is indeed Set, it merely states that he's slumbering. It doesn't state anything regarding his origin for you to even try to justify that Set is somehow not the child of the Demiurge along with Gaea and Atum. If you want to take Gaea's story by Hera as a retcon, it does not whatsoever mention Set. The SA story doesn't even remotely connect to Hera's story so what you have is that Gaea created all the gods including Set. See the nonsense you're trying to establish?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Lol, there's a lot of characters not mentioned in current comics. It doesn't mean there's a retcon.
If he's not mentioned in the most recent retelling of their origins then that's a retcon by definition.
Keep trying because there was no retcon. And there's no mention of Set along with that story Hera told either. But you're going to point to the SA to make some kind point huh?
On panel it was mentioned that Gaea predates the other Gods in this universe. On panel in Secret Avengers it states Set predates this universe.
It's not Set just yet. Since when does Set Crown's include something called a tentalce crown? Set has tentacles now? And none of his children have tentacles either. Furthermore, Set is not a universal threat at all. I could by that a new character named Abyss is a universal threat but Set? Atum shit stomped him.
Since when is Set called a cobra, yet his worshipers created a Cobra Crown in Lemuria/Atlantis long before there was a Serpent Crown.
Check Marvel Tarot for a small list of Set's children. Some of them aren't even serpentine. They just introduced one of his new offspring is all.
Since when is Chthon a universal threat, Strange banished him. Yet Eternity thanked Pym for saving him from the threat of Chthon.
No, it backs up exactly my point.[/b]- Technology is only millions of years old. Not even older than the formation of Earth much less the universe. The Celestials came millions of years later to this system after the systems formation. So it does back Archon's assertion that this Abyss or Set's slumber pre-Celestial and Galactus' [b]ARRIVAL
.
- Galactus came into being with Death and Eternity when the big bang began. How you can try to argue that Set is older than the abstracts is beyond ludicrous, and neither is this Abyss who's merely a shadow of Eternity's dream.
No it doesn't. Try READING the scans I so kindly uploaded. It states the Crowns were created by worshipers of the Darkest Child and touched by the Abyss. It states that the reason why the Archons came into being BILLIONS of years ago when "the stars went out and came back again" were to stop the Abyss/Set from rising.
Their arrival means their arrival IN THIS UNIVERSE otherwise how would Worldmind's "pre Celestial" tech mean anything. And millions can mean anything. What is a billion? A thousand million.
There's been no retcon of anything. If this is indeed Set, it merely states that he's slumbering. It doesn't state anything regarding his origin for you to even try to justify that Set is somehow not the child of the Demiurge along with Gaea and Atum. If you want to take Gaea's story by Hera as a retcon, it does not whatsoever mention Set. The SA story doesn't even remotely connect to Hera's story so what you have is that Gaea created all the gods including Set. See the nonsense you're trying to establish?
What nonsense? The stories don't have to be connected in anyway to be valid. If the writers are dropping Demiurge from the picture : he's not mentioned in Chaos War, he's not mentioned in Mystic Arcana OR Marvel : Tarot and these issues go IN DEPTH concerning the Elder Gods, and he's not mentioned in Secret Avengers what connection does Gaea, Chthon, Set and Oshtur have?
Originally posted by zopzopIf he's not mentioned in the most recent retelling of their origins then that's a retcon by definition.[/b]
The most recent telling is one panel long. They're going to try to fit the Demiurge along with the Elder Gods into that one huh?
On panel it was mentioned that Gaea predates the other Gods in this universe.
Where does it say she predates the abstracts? One panel is your evidence of proof against established continuity? Only you would believe this. Even Marvel wouldn't by this nonsense. In fact, what are the chances that in one of the current books there's a line stating Galactus is the oldest being in the universe? Hmmmm...how many times has that occured and will continue to occur?
On panel in Secret Avengers it states Set predates this universe.
Lol. Where does it say Set? Abyss? The being that's just a shadow of Eternity's dream. For Eternity to have dreams, he would have to come into being. Galactus/Eternity/Death are all older than Set. Galan actually existed in the universe prior to the current one that Set and Gaea came from.
Check Marvel Tarot for a small list of Set's children. Some of them aren't even serpentine. They just introduced one of his newsoffspring is all.
? That's not proof of the Tentacle Crown being linked with Set. You're just making assumptions.
Since when is Chthon a universal threat, Strange banished him. Yet Eternity thanked Pym for saving him from the threat of Chthon.
It's called hyperbole. You know why it's hyperbole? Because Atum stomped both Chthon and Set by his lonesome self. Universal threat? lol. Chthon couldn't even take over Earth properly. Pym stomped him but he's some kind of threat to the universe? You're seriously hyping the Elder Gods up.
No it doesn't. Try READING the scans I so kindly uploaded. It states the Crowns were created by worshipers of the Darkest Child and touched by the Abyss. It states that the reason why the Archons came into being BILLIONS of years ago when "the stars went out and came back again" were to stop the Abyss/Set from rising.Their arrival means their arrival IN THIS UNIVERSE otherwise how would Worldmind's "pre Celestial" tech mean anything. And millions can mean anything. What is a billion? A thousand million.
Keep reaching. So now the Elder Gods came into being before the universe did? Because that's you entire argument. Gaea and Set came into being before the universe did. But yet Set is some how just shadow of Eternity? Pure nonsense.
Millions of years means millions of years. Why **** would it mean a thousand million years? They'd just say a billion years then because they did just that when describing how old the Archon's were. The author knows the distinction between millions and billions of years old.
Lol, the Arhcon's didn't come into being. They were created by the Watchers. Galactus and Eternity existed long before the Watchers. Now you're argument is that Set existed before Eternity and Galactus came into being. Then Set went into a slumber and Eternity and Galactus arrived later when the current universe came into being.
While in slumber, the Watcher created the Archons to wait for Set's rise? You know why this is ludicrous? Because Set has already risen countless times and where were the Archons? Sounds more like this Abyss guy isn't Set.
What nonsense? The stories don't have to be connected in anyway to be valid.
Yeah they do. Especially when SA isn't even a telling of Set's origin anyways. It never specifies anything regarding Set's birth so how is a retcon? Does it say anywhere in SA that Set or Abyss came into being that differs from his Demiurge origins? Oh wait, it's not even an origin flash back. So how's this a retcon again? It doesn't even mention any of the Elder Gods. So by your logic, that retcons the other Elder Gods out of existence because they're not mentioned along with their father the Demiurge? Some logic.
If the writers are dropping Demiurge from the picture : he's not mentioned in Chaos War, he's not mentioned in Mystic Arcana OR Marvel : Tarot and these issues go IN DEPTH concerning the Elder Gods, and he's not mentioned in Secret Avengers what connection does Gaea, Chthon, Set and Oshtur have?
So Brukaker dropped Chthon and the other Elder gods when he didn't mention them at all in SA right? Forget Gaea, SA is the most current book and Gaea isn't even mentioned. I guess Gaea doesn't exist because some new come out and never even mentioned her.
If what? Does any of what you're claiming tell of how the Elder gods came into being? Chaos War doesn't even touch the subject. If you mean Assault On New Olympus, that was one panel summary about Gaea that doesn't even mention any of the other gods. So I guess we're to assume that Gaea gave birth to the Elder Gods.
For beings older than the Celestials, it seemed like the Celestials and the other abstracts never regarded any of them worth noticing.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKingare you really going to ignore context? 😬Universal threat? lol. Chthon couldn't even take over Earth properly.
it was a "chthon possesed Quicksilver" much like "ZOM strange"wallbash
he couldnt even use his power which is why he relied on manipulatung the spells mordred casted, hank pym took advantage to him because while possesing a mortal host chthon he has to say spells to create magic, so he created a machine that damage quicksilvers vocal cord ,thus chthon couldnt use any magic, (how in the world does this translate to "hank pym stomped him"?)
Merlyn (the universal gaurdian) is unable to contain chthons magic
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51954/1466424-merlyn.png
Chthon possesed quicksilver wipes the asgardians from existance
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51954/1153856-mighty_avengers_21__kryptonia_avenger__pg11.jpg
Dormammu invoking chthon
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7798/drstrangesorcerersuprem.jpg
(he creates skyfather level vegetation that was wtf pwning sentry, wonder man, wolverine, scarlet witch, and others
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51954/1153850-mighty_avengers_21__kryptonia_avenger__pg14.jpg 😂 )
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The most recent telling is one panel long. They're going to try to fit the Demiurge along with the Elder Gods into that one huh?
There IS NO DEMIURGE MENTIONED at all. Not in the retelling by Hera, not in Secret Avengers, not even in the 5 issues spanning Mystic Arcana 1-4 and culminating in Marvel : Tarot. If there was EVER a place to mention the Demiurge it'd be there. Yet he's strangely missing.
So Brukaker dropped Chthon and the other Elder gods when he didn't mention them at all in SA right? Forget Gaea, SA is the most current book and Gaea isn't even mentioned. I guess Gaea doesn't exist because some new come out and never even mentioned her.If what? Does any of what you're claiming tell of how the Elder gods came into being? Chaos War doesn't even touch the subject. If you mean Assault On New Olympus, that was one panel summary about Gaea that doesn't even mention any of the other gods. So I guess we're to assume that Gaea gave birth to the Elder Gods.
It seems Marvel is giving them each a unique origin story. The "Demiurge created them" hasn't been mentioned since 1989.
Where does it say she predates the abstracts? One panel is your evidence of proof against established continuity? Only you would believe this. Even Marvel wouldn't by this nonsense. In fact, what are the chances that in one of the current books there's a line stating Galactus is the oldest being in the universe? Hmmmm...how many times has that occured and will continue to occur?Lol. Where does it say Set? Abyss? The being that's just a shadow of Eternity's dream. For Eternity to have dreams, he would have to come into being. Galactus/Eternity/Death are all older than Set. Galan actually existed in the universe prior to the current one that Set and Gaea came from.
The Archon himself said "before their arrival" and "when he stars went out and came back" meaning it was before this universe. Set was already imprisoned and it was the Archons mission to keep the Darketst Child from freeing his Father and sibilings.
? That's not proof of the Tentacle Crown being linked with Set. You're just making assumptions.
No I'm really not. The mural at the site of the "Tentacle Crown" was a dead give away and here is the location of the main crown in the image of Set flanked by tentacles of stone, exactly as the mural at the previous "Tentacle Crown" depicted.
Now if the Set isn't the Father in question AND he's not the Darkest Child imprisoned on Mars, why would the worshipers of the Darkest Child being "touched by Abyss" create a crown in Set's image? If Set was merely another of the Abyss' children, why would it's brother make a crown"touched by Abyss" in the image of it's brother and not it's sire?!
It's called hyperbole. You know why it's hyperbole? Because Atum stomped both Chthon and Set by his lonesome self. Universal threat? lol. Chthon couldn't even take over Earth properly. Pym stomped him but he's some kind of threat to the universe? You're seriously hyping the Elder Gods up.
Eternity said it, ON PANEL. Take it up with Marvel. PS I've never seen Eternity thank Strange from saving him from Gorath.
Keep reaching. So now the Elder Gods came into being before the universe did? Because that's you entire argument. Gaea and Set came into being before the universe did. But yet Set is some how just shadow of Eternity? Pure nonsense.Millions of years means millions of years. Why **** would it mean a thousand million years? They'd just say a billion years then because they did just that when describing how old the Archon's were. The author knows the distinction between millions and billions of years old.
I was merely pointing out that "millions" can mean anything. It's plural, it can mean 2 million years or XXXXX million years. This doesn't conflict with the Archon's story at all.
Lol, the Arhcon's didn't come into being. They were created by the Watchers. Galactus and Eternity existed long before the Watchers. Now you're argument is that Set existed before Eternity and Galactus came into being. Then Set went into a slumber and Eternity and Galactus arrived later when the current universe came into being.
According to the Archon they were created when "the stars went out and came back again". Meaning after the end of a previous universe and during this one.
While in slumber, the Watcher created the Archons to wait for Set's rise? You know why this is ludicrous? Because Set has already risen countless times and where were the Archons? Sounds more like this Abyss guy isn't Set.
That's nice but this Archon and his brothers weren't made to counter Set, they were made to prevent the Darkest Child from being released from Mars! The rest of his brothers died in the struggle with the Darkest Child's followers and he was stationed near the Mars crown to prevent it's activation :
Yeah they do. Especially when SA isn't even a telling of Set's origin anyways. It never specifies anything regarding Set's birth so how is a retcon? Does it say anywhere in SA that Set or Abyss came into being that differs from his Demiurge origins? Oh wait, it's not even an origin flash back. So how's this a retcon again? It doesn't even mention any of the Elder Gods. So by your logic, that retcons the other Elder Gods out of existence because they're not mentioned along with their father the Demiurge? Some logic.
Genius, according to your "logic" the Demiurge story is proven false because the Abyss is Set's father! Thanks for playing.
For beings older than the Celestials, it seemed like the Celestials and the other abstracts never regarded any of them worth noticing.
Even before this, during the Atlantis Attacks storyline, the Dreaming Celestial trembled and moaned at the rising of Set.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I think WWK is correct on this one.. there certainly was no OFFICIAL recton of any sort.
How can he be "right"?
If "Abyss" isn't Set but some other evil who is the Father of Set, the Darkest Child, and their siblings then there HAS been a retconn since it was stated that the Demiurge created Set and the other Elder Gods.
If "Abyss" is just another name for Set, then he's the one mentioned as the Father of the Darkest Child and it's siblings and he predates this reality and this again retconns the Demiurge creation story of the Elder Gods.
Either way WWK loses. There's been a retcon.
Originally posted by zopzopThere IS NO DEMIURGE MENTIONED at all. Not in the retelling by Hera, not in Secret Avengers, not even in the 5 issues spanning Mystic Arcana 1-4 and culminating in Marvel : Tarot. If there was EVER a place to mention the Demiurge it'd be there. Yet he's strangely missing.
Your point is? Not mentioning someone isn't a retcon. If there was story that contradicts the Demiurge seeding Earth with the Elder Gods that would be considered a retcon. It's not the case here. One panel from Hera's short story of creation isn't a retcon either. That one panel would also suggest Gaea is older than the universe and the other abstracts which isn't the case. Go ask Pak yourself if you'd like whether Gaea is older than Galactus.
Marvel Tarot is about the users of magic, not the creation of the Elder Gods. Guess what? The Demiurge is the biosphere of the Earth - not a magic user. Your entire argument using the Tarot is pointless. You want to understand the origins of the Elder Gods you read the backups of Atlantis Attacks. You want to understand the foundations of magic you read the Tarot. You don't read the Tarot to find the creation story of the Elder Gods.
It seems Marvel is giving them each a unique origin story. The "Demiurge created them" hasn't been mentioned since 1989.
No, most writers like to tell their own version of Earth's creation. This happens every so often. The official origin story of the Elder Gods and why they regard themselves as siblings and Atum refers to Gaea as his mother is due to the backup in Atlantis Attacks. That's the official canon story and what most writers follow today. If not the care to point to another source that explain the family ties between the Elder Gods?
The Archon himself said "before their arrival" and "when he stars went out and came back" meaning it was before this universe. Set was already imprisoned and it was the Archons mission to keep the Darketst Child from freeing his Father and sibilings.
Lol. The Archons were created billions of years ago when the stars when out and came back again. Archon's explain how long ago it was and is of no relevance to the arrival part. The "before arrival refers to how long Abyss had slumbered before the Celestials and Galactus arrived to Earth's system.
"Since long before the Celestials and Devourer of Worlds arrived, he has slumbered...his talons reaching out ONLY as a shadow in Eternity's endless dreaming...tainting all who they touch. Those that watch set my brothers and me the task of guarding and waiting."
Billions of years ago: Archon's created ago by the Watchers as Abyss slumbers to watch over the site and await Abyss' awakening.
Millions of years ago: The Celestials arrived to Earth. (Galactus arrival was even more recent)
Hence the entire line "since long before the Celestials and Devourer of Worlds Arrived, he slumbered." Again this being is a mere shadow of Eternity's dream. If he's just a part of Eternity's dream, he isn't older than Galactus.
No I'm really not. The mural at the site of the "Tentacle Crown" was a dead give away and here is the location of the main crown in the image of Set flanked by tentacles of stone, exactly as the mural at the previous "Tentacle Crown" depicted.Now if the Set isn't the Father in question AND he's not the Darkest Child imprisoned on Mars, why would the worshipers of the Darkest Child being "touched by Abyss" create a crown in Set's image? If Set was merely another of the Abyss' children, why would it's brother make a crown"touched by Abyss" in the image of it's brother and not it's sire?!
Because the writer is throwing out ideas without much explanations. Another of one those evil beyond evil idea. That this Abyss guy would be the father of Set and Shuma Gorath or father in the adopted sense. And that second crown found on mars may not even be connected to Set. You're the one bringing up Set in this when he's not mentioned at all. The only thing we have to go by is a crown that similar to other serpent crowns. Beast or Cap noted that the tentacle crown seems like a cousin of the serpent crown. That crown found by Nova may be related to Set's Serpent Crown but not actually be Set's crown. The claim based on it being Set's is based on it's look but not any actual narration that it is Set's crown or Set's power. That's why this book is messy. Lot of stuff thrown out and seems cool but is never throughly explained.
Eternity said it, ON PANEL. Take it up with Marvel. PS I've never seen Eternity thank Strange from saving him from Gorath.
LMAO. I didn't even see Eternity bothering to cool in his foot soldiers like he did against Thanos with the IG. I didn't see him getting personally involved in that fight like he did against Dormammu. In fact, all I see is an Elder God getting punked by Pym's strategy and an teenage with an Ant Man helmet. Not a threat.
According to the Archon they were created when "the stars went out and came back again". Meaning after the end of a previous universe and during this one.
Or after a fight between cosmics. Odin has that happen in his fights. Phoenix can tap into those and cause them to go out and come back again. They were created when the stars went out and came back again. I.E. This Abyss was so powerful that the stars went out and came back again and thus why the Archons were created.
That's nice but this Archon and his brothers weren't made to counter Set, they were made to prevent the Darkest Child from being released from Mars! The rest of his brothers died in the struggle with the Darkest Child's followers and he was stationed near the Mars crown to prevent it's activation :
He is the reason we were created billions of years ago. He is Abyss. Those who watch created us to guard and wait for the time he will rise. They're waiting for Abyss. Apparently, they did fight the children of Abyss once before and Archon lost his brothers. But you're claiming Abyss is Set. Again, where then Archon himself if Set is the Abyss? I'll buy that his brothers didn't show up because they were destroyed. But during Atlantis Attacks, where was Archon if Set is Abyss? Oh wait letsee, maybe it's because the whole Abyss deal is not throughly thought out.
Genius, according to your "logic" the Demiurge story is proven false because the Abyss is Set's father! Thanks for playing.
That's why the whole thing isn't taken seriously. SA has a bunch of ideas being thrown out with ambiguous references. Only you would take this story and try to spin it off as Set being older than the abstracts.
Even before this, during the Atlantis Attacks storyline, the Dreaming Celestial trembled and moaned at the rising of Set.
The one that was imprison and weakened by the other Celestials? That one? Tiamut was vulnerable at that point, so much so that Ghaur was able to tap into it's power. Like I said, most Elder Gods are barely acknowledged by the abstracts.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Your point is? Not mentioning someone isn't a retcon. If there was story that contradicts the Demiurge seeding Earth with the Elder Gods that would be considered a retcon. It's not the case here. One panel from Hera's short story of creation isn't a retcon either. That one panel would also suggest Gaea is older than the universe and the other abstracts which isn't the case. Go ask Pak yourself if you'd like whether Gaea is older than Galactus.Marvel Tarot is about the users of magic, not the creation of the Elder Gods. Guess what? The Demiurge is the biosphere of the Earth - not a magic user. Your entire argument using the Tarot is pointless. You want to understand the origins of the Elder Gods you read the backups of Atlantis Attacks. You want to understand the foundations of magic you read the Tarot. You don't read the Tarot to find the creation story of the Elder Gods.
No, most writers like to tell their own version of Earth's creation. This happens every so often. The official origin story of the Elder Gods and why they regard themselves as siblings and Atum refers to Gaea as his mother is due to the backup in Atlantis Attacks. That's the official canon story and what most writers follow today. If not the care to point to another source that explain the family ties between the Elder Gods?
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Marvel Mystic Arcana 1-4 dealt with the Elder Gods and their items of power. If there was ANYWHERE the Demiurge would be mentioned it would be here.
Marvel Tarot wasn't about about just magic users. Peppered throughout the book were stories concerning the Elder Gods, their realms, objects of power, elemental affinity, servants, children, etc... Again NO mention of Demiurge!
After Marvel Mystic Arcana and Tarot, the relationship between the various Elders seems to be disintegrating. Chaos War with Gaea and Secret Avengers with Set are examples.
Lol. The Archons were created billions of years ago when the stars when out and came back again. Archon's explain how long ago it was and is of no relevance to the arrival part. The "before arrival refers to how long Abyss had slumbered before the Celestials and Galactus arrived to Earth's system."Since long before the Celestials and Devourer of Worlds arrived, he has slumbered...his talons reaching out ONLY as a shadow in Eternity's endless dreaming...tainting all who they touch. Those that watch set my brothers and me the task of guarding and waiting."
Billions of years ago: Archon's created ago by the Watchers as Abyss slumbers to watch over the site and await Abyss' awakening.
Millions of years ago: The Celestials arrived to Earth. (Galactus arrival was even more recent)Hence the entire line "since long before the Celestials and Devourer of Worlds Arrived, he slumbered." Again this being is a mere shadow of Eternity's dream. If he's just a part of Eternity's dream, he isn't older than Galactus.
That explanation makes ZERO sense. How would that "before they arrived to the Earth's system" jibe with the fact that Nova couldn't absorb their blasts because the were "pre-Celestial" tech! The meaning was plain Abyss is BEFORE Galactus and BEFORE the Celestials. See below.
And he's not just a shadow in Eternity's dreams. Read the UPPER PORTION OF THE SCAN! "He was the beginning....." Do you really want me to repost the scan? You getting that lazy WWK?
Because the writer is throwing out ideas without much explanations. Another of one those evil beyond evil idea. That this Abyss guy would be the father of Set and Shuma Gorath or father in the adopted sense. And that second crown found on mars may not even be connected to Set. You're the one bringing up Set in this when he's not mentioned at all. The only thing we have to go by is a crown that similar to other serpent crowns. Beast or Cap noted that the tentacle crown seems like a cousin of the serpent crown. That crown found by Nova may be related to Set's Serpent Crown but not actually be Set's crown. The claim based on it being Set's is based on it's look but not any actual narration that it is Set's crown or Set's power. That's why this book is messy. Lot of stuff thrown out and seems cool but is never throughly explained.
Are you serious? If Abyss is NOT Set but Set's Father, then there's been a RETCON on Set's origin! Hello?!
Also, if Set is not Abyss, why would the Darkest Child have a crown created in the image of his brother, Set and NOT their sire, Abyss.
Or after a fight between cosmics. Odin has that happen in his fights. Phoenix can tap into those and cause them to go out and come back again. They were created when the stars went out and came back again. I.E. This Abyss was so powerful that the stars went out and came back again and thus why the Archons were created.
Good grief. How about the more LOGICAL explanation, the Archons were created at the end of the previous universe and the beginning of this one to keep watch.
He is the reason we were created billions of years ago. He is Abyss. Those who watch created us to guard and wait for the time he will rise. They're waiting for Abyss. Apparently, they did fight the children of Abyss once before and Archon lost his brothers. But you're claiming Abyss is Set. Again, where then Archon himself if Set is the Abyss? I'll buy that his brothers didn't show up because they were destroyed. But during Atlantis Attacks, where was Archon if Set is Abyss? Oh wait letsee, maybe it's because the whole Abyss deal is not throughly thought out.
Yes they were created to stop the Darkest Child from rising, then freeing his brothers, then freeing their Father. READ THE WHOLE SCAN, not just bits and pieces. And where did you read they fought the children of Abyss? It says they fought the followers of the Darkest Child who were trying to free him.
He didn't show up during Atlantis Attacks because he was stationed ON MARS TO WATCH OVER THAT SPECIFIC CROWN. He even says so himself. He didn't even awaken when the "Tentacle Crown" was stolen because he was in charge of the 7 headed serpent crown with thorns that Nova stole.
That's why the whole thing isn't taken seriously. SA has a bunch of ideas being thrown out with ambiguous references. Only you would take this story and try to spin it off as Set being older than the abstracts.
And only you could be so dense and biased that you'd ignore what's on panel because it doesn't jibe with how you see things. This isn't the first time you've done this.
The one that was imprison and weakened by the other Celestials? That one? Tiamut was vulnerable at that point, so much so that Ghaur was able to tap into it's power. Like I said, most Elder Gods are barely acknowledged by the abstracts.
The Black Celestial didn't even twitch when Kang fought the Fantastic Four right outside his prison, when Kang was attempting to free him. Yet he TREMBLED at the thought of Set's arrival (Set wasn't even on Earth yet).
The abstracts don't acknowledge the Elder Gods? Well the same can be said for the Elders, they don't acknowledge the abstracts. See how that works?
Originally posted by rotiart
Yeah I'm just gonna go ahead and after reading the last two pages Say I'm Currently team white witch king.
In what way?
His major points so far :
1) There has been no retcon in the Elder Gods origin.
2) Abyss isn't Set.
He completely FAILS on point 1. Since by his own admission, Aybss isn't Set, then Abyss is the Father of Set and the Darkest Child and his siblings, hence THERE HAS BEEN A RETCON on Set's origin. Since originally Demiurge was the creator of all the Elder Gods.
He fails on point 2 because if Set isn't Abyss, why would the Darkest Child (who IS NOT SET) create a set of 3 crowns with the "main" crown being in the image of a Serpent Crown with thorns? It's LITERALLY a Serpent Crown with some thorns protruding from it. Why would the Darkest Child, WHO IS NOT SET, create the crown in the image of his brother and not their Father? How does that make ANY sense?
Originally posted by zopzopYou couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Marvel Mystic Arcana 1-4 dealt with the Elder Gods and their items of power. If there was ANYWHERE the Demiurge would be mentioned it would be here.
So what has the Demiurge ever been linked to magic users? Mystic Arcana is about magic - it's in the title. That book doesn't even mention Atum either and so what's your point? Furthermore, the Demiurge is not an Elder God. Where would the Demiurge fit into that story? Would you care to explain if you were the writer? That story doesn't even mention the Elder Gods origin so of course it's not going to mention the Demiurge. You point is on MA is just as useless as The Tarot.
Marvel Tarot wasn't about about just magic users. Peppered throughout the book were stories concerning the Elder Gods, their realms, objects of power, elemental affinity, servants, children, etc... Again NO mention of Demiurge!
Who has ever invoked Demiurge's name for him to be put into such a book? And the Demiurge is not an Elder God.
After Marvel Mystic Arcana and Tarot, the relationship between the various Elders seems to be disintegrating. Chaos War with Gaea and Secret Avengers with Set are examples.
LMAO. So how does Hoggoth, Raggaddor, Cyttorak, Munipoor, and a host of non-Elder Gods show up with sections devoted to them? And why oh why is most of it regarding magic and not the origins of the Elder Gods? You know why people are backing me up on this? Because you have no argument really, except that a character wasn't mentioned in a book that has no baring on him.
That explanation makes ZERO sense. How would that "before they arrived to the Earth's system" jibe with the fact that Nova couldn't absorb their blasts because the were "pre-Celestial" tech! The meaning was plain Abyss is BEFORE Galactus and BEFORE the Celestials. See below.
LMAO, the Nova Force isn't exactly the highest form of tech in the current universe. Being unable to absorb a blast because the tech is millions of years old just mean the tech is superior to the Nova Force/WM. You act as if Nova could absorb would a Celestial, Galactus, or even the Molecule Man can dish out because they're of this universe.
And he's not just a shadow in Eternity's dreams. Read the UPPER PORTION OF THE SCAN! "He was the beginning....." Do you really want me to repost the scan? You getting that lazy WWK?
Nothing but hyperbole until proven otherwise. All new villains get hyped up; it isn't surprising since they're trying to attract readers to a new book. It's hype until this being actually does something worth. That entire line is generic as they come.
He's just Eternity's dream. And the Watchers sent a bunch of Android's who are at best herald level to wait for his rise. No one else, including the Celestials, cares.
Are you serious? If Abyss is NOT Set but Set's Father, then there's been a RETCON on Set's origin! Hello?!
Yes, if. Again, there's no real definitive answers yet. So no, there hasn't been a retcon. What's funny is that they could easily reveal that Abyss is also known as the Demiurge and Gaea actually ascended from Elder Demon to an actual god. Wouldn't be surprising if they did that.
Also, if Set is not Abyss, why would the Darkest Child have a crown created in the image of his brother, Set and NOT their sire, Abyss.
Because Abyss' other child, on Mars, is another Serpent like being. Why don't you ask me how come brothers look alike or that alot of Set's children resemble him? You might as well ask me that question.
Good grief. How about the more LOGICAL explanation, the Archons were created at the end of the previous universe and the beginning of this one to keep watch.
Lol. Because the Watchers came into being in the current universe. Established history states that Galactus is the only survivor of the previous universe. Even the Watchers acknowledge this. No where does it even state that the Archon's came from the previous universe, you're just making assumptions from hyperbole made by the Archons.
Yes they were created to stop the Darkest Child from rising, then freeing his brothers, then freeing their Father. READ THE WHOLE SCAN, not just bits and pieces. And where did you read they fought the children of Abyss? It says they fought the followers of the Darkest Child who were trying to free him.
They fought the wearers of the three crown. Each crown channels the power of Abyss' children. They didn't fight the dark children directly, but did fight their powers channeled those crowns.
He didn't show up during Atlantis Attacks because he was stationed ON MARS TO WATCH OVER THAT SPECIFIC CROWN. He even says so himself. He didn't even awaken when the "Tentacle Crown" was stolen because he was in charge of the 7 headed serpent crown with thorns that Nova stole.
He was tasked to wait until the rise of Abyss. That's his primary goal. If Set was Abyss and rose, it wouldn't matter what Crown he was watching over. And Mars as for, that's going to stop Archon from journeying to Earth? The Watchers were definitely lazy if they didn't provide the Archons flight abilities. Then again, the Watchers were too lazy anyway to even call on Archon when Set rose in Atlantis Attacks.
And only you could be so dense and biased that you'd ignore what's on panel because it doesn't jibe with how you see things. This isn't the first time you've done this.
Lol. Is that why most posters facepalm when they try to debate you?
The Black Celestial didn't even twitch when Kang fought the Fantastic Four right outside his prison, when Kang was attempting to free him. Yet he TREMBLED at the thought of Set's arrival (Set wasn't even on Earth yet).
Lol. So BC is going to tremble because Kang wanted to free him? Is that how most prisoners feel about being freed from prison?
The abstracts don't acknowledge the Elder Gods? Well the same can be said for the Elders, they don't acknowledge the abstracts. See how that works?
That's funny considering the whole immortal business involving Death. And when Galactus ate them. Or how they teamed up with another Abstract to take on Galactus. Or when Grand Master and Death held a game with the heroes as the pawns. For ones who don't acknowledge the Abstracts, they have a funny way of interacting with them.
