Elder Gods battle

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So what has the Demiurge ever been linked to magic users? Mystic Arcana is about magic - it's in the title. That book doesn't even mention Atum either and so what's your point? Furthermore, the Demiurge is not an Elder God. Where would the Demiurge fit into that story? Would you care to explain if you were the writer? That story doesn't even mention the Elder Gods origin so of course it's not going to mention the Demiurge. You point is on MA is just as useless as The Tarot.

Who has ever invoked Demiurge's name for him to be put into such a book? And the Demiurge is not an Elder God.

First of all, Demiurge supposedly CREATED the Elder Gods. Why is he noticeably absent from an entire 5 issues devoted to the Elders?

LMAO. So how does Hoggoth, Raggaddor, Cyttorak, Munipoor, and a host of non-Elder Gods show up with sections devoted to them? And why oh why is most of it regarding magic and not the origins of the Elder Gods? You know why people are backing me up on this? Because you have no argument really, except that a character wasn't mentioned in a book that has no baring on him.

They had a section devoted to them, showing where their respective realms are located in relation to the Earth and the realms of the Elders. That's it.

LMAO, the Nova Force isn't exactly the highest form of tech in the current universe. Being unable to absorb a blast because the tech is millions of years old just mean the tech is superior to the Nova Force/WM. You act as if Nova could absorb would a Celestial, Galactus, or even the Molecule Man can dish out because they're of this universe.

Then why did the WRITER feel the need to mention it was of "pre-celestial" (pre-dating the Celestials) origin and that's why Nova couldn't absorb it? If as you say, he only meant to say it was before the Celestials appeared in Earth's system. Xanadar and the Nova Force have NOTHING to do with the Earth. There's no relation. Your "theory" makes ZERO sense.

[Nothing but hyperbole until proven otherwise. All new villains get hyped up; it isn't surprising since they're trying to attract readers to a new book. It's hype until this being actually does something worth. That entire line is generic as they come.

He's just Eternity's dream. And the Watchers sent a bunch of Android's who are at best herald level to wait for his rise. No one else, including the Celestials, cares.

Well the Watchers, beings who supposedly DO NOT INTERFERE, felt the need to create these androids and INTERFERE with Abyss/Set's rise. I love how you say it's hyperbole but accept the fact that Abyss/Set is mere a part of Eternity's dreaming. Your double standards are laughable.

And if he's a "new villain" then you admit you were wrong and Demiurge is NOT Set's Father and there has been a retcon?

Yes, if. Again, there's no real definitive answers yet. So no, there hasn't been a retcon. What's funny is that they could easily reveal that Abyss is also known as the Demiurge and Gaea actually ascended from Elder Demon to an actual god. Wouldn't be surprising if they did that.

In other words you are making sh|t up as you go along. Got it.

Because Abyss' other child, on Mars, is another Serpent like being. Why don't you ask me how come brothers look alike or that alot of Set's children resemble him? You might as well ask me that question.

Actually NO he's not. Check the mural in the scans I provided, it's just a tentacled mass. Exactly like the tentacled mass that was seeping through the Martian soil before it was banished again. In one of the scans, there are images of beings fighting the Darkest Child and it's just a mass of tentacles.

Lol. Because the Watchers came into being in the current universe. Established history states that Galactus is the only survivor of the previous universe. Even the Watchers acknowledge this. No where does it even state that the Archon's came from the previous universe, you're just making assumptions from hyperbole made by the Archons.

They were created when the stars went out and then came back. Meaning they were created at the beginning of this current universe AFTER the destruction of the previous one.

He was tasked to wait until the rise of Abyss. That's his primary goal. If Set was Abyss and rose, it wouldn't matter what Crown he was watching over. And Mars as for, that's going to stop Archon from journeying to Earth? The Watchers were definitely lazy if they didn't provide the Archons flight abilities. Then again, the Watchers were too lazy anyway to even call on Archon when Set rose in Atlantis Attacks.

No he was tasked to make sure the Darkest Child didn't rise and free his brothers and then their Father. Do you read the freaking scans?

He was INACTIVE until the crown he was watching was stolen by Nova. He didn't even attempt to reclaim the Tentacle Crown which was found earlier by Roxxon Corp and held by the Shadow Council on Earth.

Lol. Is that why most posters facepalm when they try to debate you?

Like?

Lol. So BC is going to tremble because Kang wanted to free him? Is that how most prisoners feel about being freed from prison?

Your ignorance is on display again. The whole point of me referencing that event is, it was mentioned on panel that when Kang was attempting to free him by battling the FF right outside his prision "he did not stir" but the mere thought of Set's arrival "caused him to tremble and moan".

That's funny considering the whole immortal business involving Death. And when Galactus ate them. Or how they teamed up with another Abstract to take on Galactus. Or when Grand Master and Death held a game with the heroes as the pawns. For ones who don't acknowledge the Abstracts, they have a funny way of interacting with them.

WTF are you talking about here? When have the Elder Gods even cared about the abstracts or interacted with them?

Originally posted by zopzop

First of all, Demiurge supposedly CREATED the Elder Gods. Why is he noticeably absent from an entire 5 issues devoted to the Elders?

So where was Atum then because he's an actual Elder God? The Demiurge isn't an Elder God or magic user. How ignorant can you be?

They had a section devoted to them, showing where their respective realms are located in relation to the Earth and the realms of the Elders. That's it.

Lmao. Realms of magic, packs between the Elder Gods who used magic. When has the Demiurge used magic or is even an Elder God?

Then why did the WRITER feel the need to mention it was of "pre-celestial" (pre-dating the Celestials) origin and that's why Nova couldn't absorb it? If as you say, he only meant to say it was before the Celestials appeared in Earth's system. Xanadar and the Nova Force have NOTHING to do with the Earth. There's no relation. Your "theory" makes ZERO sense.

LMAO. The WM doesn't have to be from Earth to know when the Celestials arrived on Earth and technology is older then that date. The writer is making a clear distinction that this technology on Mars could not have been from the Celestials who are often associated ancient technology i.e. Ship. That this tech is not Celestial technology, but dated before their arrival.

Well the Watchers, beings who supposedly DO NOT INTERFERE, felt the need to create these androids and INTERFERE with Abyss/Set's rise. I love how you say it's hyperbole but accept the fact that Abyss/Set is mere a part of Eternity's dreaming. Your double standards are laughable.

LMAO. Because the Watchers have NEVER ever interfered before except in this instance right? Just ask Reed and every body who's ever met a Watcher that told them they do not intervene.

The part about being Eternity's dream isn't hypberbole because it's stated before that the Celestials too were just a part of Eternity's dream. This isn't some generic/cliche line about a bad guy being omnipotent or powerful enough to end the world. There's been more claims about a being being a universal threat then being a part of Eternity's dream. For the most part, those descriptions turn out to be hypes i.e. hyperboles. This Abyss guy has done nothing. Seriously nothing at all. That he would be just a dream of Eternity isn't far fetch. And we don't have to take that literally, figuretively it just means Abyss is nothing comparable to Eternity.

And if he's a "new villain" then you admit you were wrong and Demiurge is NOT Set's Father and there has been a retcon?

Yes and no. Depending on how it's played out. If it turns out Abyss is Set's adopted father (evil nurturing evil) then no. The Demiurge would still be Set's true father.

In other words you are making sh|t up as you go along. Got it.

Lmao. That something like the Demiurge turning out to be evil is not farfetched of a twist. When's the last time you picked up a comic book and not just picked up shit?

Actually NO he's not. Check the mural in the scans I provided, it's just a tentacled mass. Exactly like the tentacled mass that was seeping through the Martian soil before it was banished again. In one of the scans, there are images of beings fighting the Darkest Child and it's just a mass of tentacles.

Um no, still too ambiguous by this point.

They were created when the stars went out and then came back. Meaning they were created at the beginning of this current universe AFTER the destruction of the previous one.

Lmao. Let's ignore entire established history where even the Watchers admit that Galactus is the sole survivor of the previous universe. Now apparently the Watchers existed in the previous univer...ah hell let's make everybody exist in the previous universe except Galactus and the other abstracts just off of mumble jumble by some android.

No he was tasked to make sure the Darkest Child didn't rise and free his brothers and then their Father. Do you read the freaking scans?

His task is to await the rise of Abyss. Abyss is the father. If Abyss is Set and Set rose, Archon would hunt down Set. The entire point of the Archons is to stop Abyss from rising. If stopping his children is the way to do it then that's what they do. But their directive is to await and stop the rise of Abyss. What do the sons matter if the Father arises?

He was INACTIVE until the crown he was watching was stolen by Nova. He didn't even attempt to reclaim the Tentacle Crown which was found earlier by Roxxon Corp and held by the Shadow Council on Earth.

?And if Set is Abyss, he would've awaken anyways as his task was to stop Abyss. Whatever crown he guards wouldn't matter if Abyss is awakened.

Like?

Galan. Cortsether.

Your ignorance is on display again. The whole point of me referencing that event is, it was mentioned on panel that when Kang was attempting to free him by battling the FF right outside his prision "he did not stir" but the mere thought of Set's arrival "caused him to tremble and moan".

Lol. Battling has what to do with Tiamut? And Kang isn't on the same tier as most heralds for is power to matter to BC. Set possessing a threat to an imprisoned BC sure; I buy that. Without that constraint, Tiamut would abuse Set.

WTF are you talking about here? When have the Elder Gods even cared about the abstracts or interacted with them?

Maybe if you wrote Elder Gods instead Elders. Elders of the Universe, i'm sure you heard of them.

As for the Elder Gods, both Set and Gaea seem to care when the first Celestial Host arrived. Set sent his Serpent Men to kill the wanders and have the remaining two lead them to the Celestial's ship. Heck, the Serpent Men even says "mighty beings are coming from the sky bringing gifts." Gaea shows up later and beckons the wanders to come forth to accept the Celestials gifts. The Serpent Men shows up, thinking that they too would receive these evolutionary gifts since Set had evolved their mind above the wanders. Instead, Arishem judged against them and drove them away. LMAO. For not caring about the abstracts, Set sure wanted his Serpent Men to receive these evolutionary gifts. Didn't get it tho. lol

The Deviants, Eternals, and humans (with latent mutation) came into being. The Serpent Men was driven into hiding. Guess who's ruling current Earth? And what's up with those nasty Homo Superiors and Omega Level mutants? lol. And let's not forget those Skrull Eternal and Deviants that evolved into Gods themselves. Apparently they did a better job then Set did against Atum. Well, I take that back. The mutant and omega mutant argument is enough. The whole Atum/Skrull fight was too PIS to be taken seriously.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So where was Atum then because he's an actual Elder God? The Demiurge isn't an Elder God or magic user. How ignorant can you be?

Lmao. Realms of magic, packs between the Elder Gods who used magic. When has the Demiurge used magic or is even an Elder God?

Demiurge SHOULD have been mentioned since that series dealt so much in depth with the Elders that they even told you what element they represent, their totems of power, their children, their realms, etc... Why wouldn't their CREATOR be there? Fail more.

Atum isn't one of the original Elder Gods. He came after their initial creation and is a product of Gaea and Demiurge. "A new kind of being", "the first of a NEW race of gods" :

LMAO. The WM doesn't have to be from Earth to know when the Celestials arrived on Earth and technology is older then that date. The writer is making a clear distinction that this technology on Mars could not have been from the Celestials who are often associated ancient technology i.e. Ship. That this tech is not Celestial technology, but dated before their arrival.

OMG, do you even believe what you post anymore? The Celestials were NEVER ON Mars! You still aren't answering wtf Nova couldn't absorb their blasts because the tech was from before the Celestials arrived on Earth (story takes place on Mars by the way)? What difference would it make? Unless the tech was so alien it pre-dated the Celestials exactly like Worldmind said. Since Abyss pre-dates the Celestials exactly like the Archon said.

LMAO. Because the Watchers have NEVER ever interfered before except in this instance right? Just ask Reed and every body who's ever met a Watcher that told them they do not intervene.

The part about being Eternity's dream isn't hypberbole because it's stated before that the Celestials too were just a part of Eternity's dream. This isn't some generic/cliche line about a bad guy being omnipotent or powerful enough to end the world. There's been more claims about a being being a universal threat then being a part of Eternity's dream. For the most part, those descriptions turn out to be hypes i.e. hyperboles. This Abyss guy has done nothing. Seriously nothing at all. That he would be just a dream of Eternity isn't far fetch. And we don't have to take that literally, figuretively it just means Abyss is nothing comparable to Eternity.

If the Celestials are in fact products of Eternity's dreaming, then Abyss predates them. The Archon said so himself on panel.

Individual Watchers may occasionally break their vow, but the Archon said "THOSE WHO WATCH" as in PLURAL.

Yes and no. Depending on how it's played out. If it turns out Abyss is Set's adopted father (evil nurturing evil) then no. The Demiurge would still be Set's true father.

Lmao. That something like the Demiurge turning out to be evil is not farfetched of a twist. When's the last time you picked up a comic book and not just picked up shit?

The DEMIURGE hasn't been mentioned since 1989! Not in Chaos War and not in Secret Avengers and not even in the freaking most in depth account of the Elders and their background stories in Mystic Arcana 1-4 and Marvel Tarot!

Um no, still too ambiguous by this point.

Actually no, no it isn't. Aside from the murals and the freaking thing ACTUALLY rising from the Martian soil all tentacle-like, here's the Tentacle Crown :

It was actually unfurling as the Darkest Child was being dug out.

Lmao. Let's ignore entire established history where even the Watchers admit that Galactus is the sole survivor of the previous universe. Now apparently the Watchers existed in the previous univer...ah hell let's make everybody exist in the previous universe except Galactus and the other abstracts just off of mumble jumble by some android.

Uhm they could have discovered the existence of the Abyss and it's background story. Same as Galactus. Since they weren't in the previous universe Galactus was in yet they know he's it's sole survivor.

His task is to await the rise of Abyss. Abyss is the father. If Abyss is Set and Set rose, Archon would hunt down Set. The entire point of the Archons is to stop Abyss from rising. If stopping his children is the way to do it then that's what they do. But their directive is to await and stop the rise of Abyss. What do the sons matter if the Father arises?

Dude his JOB was to prevent the Darkest Child from rising and awakening it's brothers, and then freeing it's Father. DO YOU READ THE FREAKING SCANS?

?And if Set is Abyss, he would've awaken anyways as his task was to stop Abyss. Whatever crown he guards wouldn't matter if Abyss is awakened.

His job was to prevent the Darkest Child from rising. His post was the 7 headed serpent crown of thorns.

Once he got that SPECIFIC crown he was off to parts unknown. The Tentacled Crown and the third Martian crown are still out there. The Tentacled Crown in possession of the Shadow Council on Earth and the third Martian crown lies buried and still undisturbed.

Maybe if you wrote Elder Gods instead Elders. Elders of the Universe, i'm sure you heard of them.

As for the Elder Gods, both Set and Gaea seem to care when the first Celestial Host arrived. Set sent his Serpent Men to kill the wanders and have the remaining two lead them to the Celestial's ship. Heck, the Serpent Men even says "mighty beings are coming from the sky bringing gifts." Gaea shows up later and beckons the wanders to come forth to accept the Celestials gifts. The Serpent Men shows up, thinking that they too would receive these evolutionary gifts since Set had evolved their mind above the wanders. Instead, Arishem judged against them and drove them away. LMAO. For not caring about the abstracts, Set sure wanted his Serpent Men to receive these evolutionary gifts. Didn't get it tho. lol

The Deviants, Eternals, and humans (with latent mutation) came into being. The Serpent Men was driven into hiding. Guess who's ruling current Earth? And what's up with those nasty Homo Superiors and Omega Level mutants? lol. And let's not forget those Skrull Eternal and Deviants that evolved into Gods themselves. Apparently they did a better job then Set did against Atum. Well, I take that back. The mutant and omega mutant argument is enough. The whole Atum/Skrull fight was too PIS to be taken seriously.

I used Elders before this but all of the sudden you are getting annoyed by it? Whatever.

The whole Serpent Men/Celestial thing was a ploy by Set to have his minions favored by the Celestials so they would be the supreme species on Earth (like in the time of the dinosaurs) and he'd gain a foothold on the planet again after his banishment by Atum.

PIS or not, Atum is dead. Apparently Atum was Kryptonite to renegade Earth deities but a joke vs alien pantheons.

Originally posted by zopzop

Demiurge SHOULD have been mentioned since that series dealt so much in depth with the Elders that they even told you what element they represent, their totems of power, their children, their realms, etc... Why wouldn't their CREATOR be there? Fail more.

Atum isn't one of the original Elder Gods. He came after their initial creation and is a product of Gaea and Demiurge. "A new kind of being", "the first of a NEW race of gods" :

Obviously the writer feels completely different from you. If their creator was mentioned, then where was their destroyer?

As for your scans, if we go by the origin story then Atum is not an Elder God but neither is the Demiurge. He's neither Elder God nor magic user, him not being mentioned in a book about magic means nothing. Furthermore, you freely reference that back up and admit that the Demiurge mated with Gaea to create Atum, a new race of gods. Hence, even you acknowledge this back up story and the Demiurge as the creator of the Elder Gods and Atum.

OMG, do you even believe what you post anymore? The Celestials were NEVER ON Mars! You still aren't answering wtf Nova couldn't absorb their blasts because the tech was from before the Celestials arrived on Earth (story takes place on Mars by the way)? What difference would it make? Unless the tech was so alien it pre-dated the Celestials exactly like Worldmind said. Since Abyss pre-dates the Celestials exactly like the Archon said.

Lmao. I get it. You don't know what you're talking about by this point. Pre-Celestial means before Celestial. It a time reference not place reference. As for why Nova couldn't, it's because Nova Force isn't the highest tech in the universe. Already told you this. Unless you think Nova can take on absorb the Celestials power, or Galactus, or Moleculeman. How dumb can you be? You act as if the Nova Force and World Mind could absorb anything in this current universe. So him not absorbing that blast means it's tech that came from the previous universe? Lol.

If the Celestials are in fact products of Eternity's dreaming, then Abyss predates them. The Archon said so himself on panel.

Both are products of Eternity's dream so he doesn't predate any of them. Abyss doesn't definitely predate the Galactus and the other abstracts.

Individual Watchers may occasionally break their vow, but the Archon said "THOSE WHO WATCH" as in PLURAL.

Oh please, interfering is interfering. And the Watchers intervene half the time.

When Galactus arrived, Utau pointed to the Ultimate Nullifier to the FF. As for Abyss, the left some androids that's herald level at best. lol

The DEMIURGE hasn't been mentioned since 1989! Not in Chaos War and not in Secret Avengers and not even in the freaking most in depth account of the Elders and their background stories in Mystic Arcana 1-4 and Marvel Tarot!

Hahaha. Only you believe your bullshit. Put up a poll and post your points. I'll counter with mine and see what other readers believe. lol

Actually no, no it isn't. Aside from the murals and the freaking thing ACTUALLY rising from the Martian soil all tentacle-like, here's the Tentacle Crown :

It was actually unfurling as the Darkest Child was being dug out.

Uhm they could have discovered the existence of the Abyss and it's background story. Same as Galactus. Since they weren't in the previous universe Galactus was in yet they know he's it's sole survivor.

Let's get this straight:
- Billions of years ago, the Watchers created the Archons to guard Abyss.
- Billions of years later, the Watchers and Abstracts tell everybody in comics that Galactus is the sole survivor of the previous universe b/c they haven't yet discovered Abyss' background story.

Logic isn't your friend huh?

Dude his JOB was to prevent the Darkest Child from rising and awakening it's brothers, and then freeing it's Father. DO YOU READ THE FREAKING SCANS?

His job was to prevent the Darkest Child from rising. His post was the 7 headed serpent crown of thorns.

Archon: To free their nameless father.
Cap: And who is this namless father.
Archon: He is the REASON I and the other archons were created.

Do you read the scans? What's the point of guarding a crown when Abyss risen anyway? If Set is Abyss and he rose in Atlantis Attacks, where was Archon again? lol.

Once he got that SPECIFIC crown he was off to parts unknown. The Tentacled Crown and the third Martian crown are still out there. The Tentacled Crown in possession of the Shadow Council on Earth and the third Martian crown lies buried and still undisturbed.

Y'know why? Because Set isn't Abyss. Set has already risen. He can rise again without the Serpent Crown. In fact before the crown, Set manifested on Earth using the dinosaurs without the crown. The crown isn't the end all be all of Set's access to Earth. So that taking one crown into hiding isn't hindering Set if he is Abyss. But if Archon felt that taking away that crown would prevent Abyss from coming back, then Abyss isn't Set.

The whole Serpent Men/Celestial thing was a ploy by Set to have his minions favored by the Celestials so they would be the supreme species on Earth (like in the time of the dinosaurs) and he'd gain a foothold on the planet again after his banishment by Atum.

So much for the Elder Gods not caring for the abstracts. Both Gaea and Set saw that the struggle of their championed species would tip due to the evolutionary gifts of the Celestials. Both were right. The Serpent Men are afterthoughts to the evolutionary superior mammals that received the gifts. Gift that gave humanity powers that rival and sometimes surpass the gods. Mad Jim Jasper, Vulcan, Sersi, Zuras, Phoenix, Ice Man, Ikaris.

Lastly, if Abyss is really Set and has technology from the previous universe that exceeds the Celestials, how come this knowledge was never passed onto his Serpent Men? The only thing Set did was increase the Serpent Men's intelligence being the Wanders and yet they still lost domination for Earth. lol

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Obviously the writer feels completely different from you. If their creator was mentioned, then where was their destroyer?

As for your scans, if we go by the origin story then Atum is not an Elder God but neither is the Demiurge. He's neither Elder God nor magic user, him not being mentioned in a book about magic means nothing. Furthermore, you freely reference that back up and admit that the Demiurge mated with Gaea to create Atum, a new race of gods. Hence, even you acknowledge this back up story and the Demiurge as the creator of the Elder Gods and Atum.

No my deluded friend. I merely used the old 1989 info to prove to you that even before any retcons and Mystic Arcana/Tarot, Atum was not considered an Elder God. Hence why he wouldn't be mentioned in Mystic Arcana/Tarot as an Elder.

Demiurge, however, SHOULD have been mentioned at least. Since he was their creator.

PS I think I found ONE mention of Demiurge in Marvel Tarot but it could have been a typo. I'll post the scan tomorrow.

Lmao. I get it. You don't know what you're talking about by this point. Pre-Celestial means before Celestial. It a time reference not place reference. As for why Nova couldn't, it's because Nova Force isn't the highest tech in the universe. Already told you this. Unless you think Nova can take on absorb the Celestials power, or Galactus, or Moleculeman. How dumb can you be? You act as if the Nova Force and World Mind could absorb anything in this current universe. So him not absorbing that blast means it's tech that came from the previous universe? Lol.

Why couldn't Nova absorb a Celestial blast. I'm mean sure he'd be fried by it, but why couldn't he absorb a miniscule percentage of it before being annihilated. He couldn't do jack vs these blasts and that's why he was avoiding them. Your explanation flies in the face of what both Worldmind and the Archon said.

Both are products of Eternity's dream so he doesn't predate any of them. Abyss doesn't definitely predate the Galactus and the other abstracts.

Except the Archon didn't say he's a product of Eternity's dreaming. He said "he is the end and the beginning" and "his dark talons reaching out as shadow in Eternity's endless dreaming tainting all who they touch". He's not created by Eternity at all. You lied or you don't understand what you are reading.

Oh please, interfering is interfering. And the Watchers intervene half the time.

When Galactus arrived, Utau pointed to the Ultimate Nullifier to the FF. As for Abyss, the left some androids that's herald level at best. lol

Hahaha. Only you believe your bullshit. Put up a poll and post your points. I'll counter with mine and see what other readers believe. lol

Individual Watchers may intervene from time to time but the Archon specifically said "THOSE WHO WATCH" as in PLURAL created the Archons to guard against Abyss' rising.

et's get this straight:
- Billions of years ago, the Watchers created the Archons to guard Abyss.
- Billions of years later, the Watchers and Abstracts tell everybody in comics that Galactus is the sole survivor of the previous universe b/c they haven't yet discovered Abyss' background story.

Logic isn't your friend huh?

Reading comprehension fail yet again. You were the one who said "how could the Watchers know anything about the Abyss if he predates this universe and the Watchers didn't come into existence till this universe was around" I merely said, IF the Watchers, who WERE NOT AROUND when Galan became Galactus in the previous universe, yet they know of his origin, why couldn't they likewise discover the existence of the Abyss over time?

Archon: To free their nameless father.
Cap: And who is this namless father.
Archon: He is the REASON I and the other archons were created.

Do you read the scans? What's the point of guarding a crown when Abyss risen anyway? If Set is Abyss and he rose in Atlantis Attacks, where was Archon again? lol.

No! Read the god damn scans. The Martian Archons were created to prevent the Darkest Child from rising, freeing his brothers, then freeing their father. He was stationed to watch over the 7 headed serpent crown of thorns. That's why I provided the scans where he said so EXPLICITLY.

Y'know why? Because Set isn't Abyss. Set has already risen. He can rise again without the Serpent Crown. In fact before the crown, Set manifested on Earth using the dinosaurs without the crown. The crown isn't the end all be all of Set's access to Earth. So that taking one crown into hiding isn't hindering Set if he is Abyss. But if Archon felt that taking away that crown would prevent Abyss from coming back, then Abyss isn't Set.

The Archon would not know of this because the Archon was inactive ON MARS. He was activated only after Nova took the 7 headed serpent crown of thorns. He didn't even activate when the Tentacle Crown was stolen from it's burial spot on Mars. He didn't even SEEK OUT the Tentacle Crown after he got his hands on the CROWN HE WAS STATIONED OVER!

So much for the Elder Gods not caring for the abstracts. Both Gaea and Set saw that the struggle of their championed species would tip due to the evolutionary gifts of the Celestials. Both were right. The Serpent Men are afterthoughts to the evolutionary superior mammals that received the gifts. Gift that gave humanity powers that rival and sometimes surpass the gods. Mad Jim Jasper, Vulcan, Sersi, Zuras, Phoenix, Ice Man, Ikaris.

Set merely wanted his Serpent Men to reign supreme because his previous touchstone to Earth, the dinosaurs, were wiped out. Gaea wanted to let the dinosaurs die off but Set wouldn't have it and ordered the dinosaurs to wipe out the mammals. I doubt that Set was even aware what Omega Level mutants were, hell the fuggin' writers didn't even have that in mind back in the late 80s.

Lastly, if Abyss is really Set and has technology from the previous universe that exceeds the Celestials, how come this knowledge was never passed onto his Serpent Men? The only thing Set did was increase the Serpent Men's intelligence being the Wanders and yet they still lost domination for Earth. lol

This story takes place 20+ years after the Serpent Crown Saga! I doubt the writers in the late 80s thought about what someone in 2010 was gonna do.

Originally posted by zopzop

No my deluded friend. I merely used the old 1989 info to prove to you that even before any retcons and Mystic Arcana/Tarot, Atum was not considered an Elder God. Hence why he wouldn't be mentioned in Mystic Arcana/Tarot as an Elder.

Demiurge, however, SHOULD have been mentioned at least. Since he was their creator.

PS I think I found ONE mention of Demiurge in Marvel Tarot but it could have been a typo. I'll post the scan tomorrow.

Lmao. So you admit he is their creator. If he's not, then how did the Elder Gods and Atum come into being? Answer me that.

So their creator should be mentioned but not their destroyer? There isn't any retcon except for the one in your head. Leaving a character out of a story isn't a retcon.

In fact, Marvel's Encyclopedia Mythologica (July 2009) first page is on Gaea and it begins with the Demiurge as the first being on Earth and the creator of the Elder Gods and Atum's. It fully backs the original origin of the Elder Gods. Tarot was in 2007.

Head Writer: Anthony Flamini
Consulting Writers: GREG PAK & PAUL VAN LENTE from Incredible Hercules

Why couldn't Nova absorb a Celestial blast. I'm mean sure he'd be fried by it, but why couldn't he absorb a miniscule percentage of it before being annihilated. He couldn't do jack vs these blasts and that's why he was avoiding them. Your explanation flies in the face of what both Worldmind and the Archon said.

Because Nova had a hard time shielding against Black Bolt's scream stored in power packs. A Celestial is magnitudes above Black Bolt's full might and Richard wasn't even dealing with Bolt's full might. Because Celestials have ignored Odin, Zeus, and Vishnu's combined attack. Odin kneed before the Arishem who threaten to burn their realms. You think Nova would absorb that? It took the WM atleast 70% of it's power just to hold back the Phalanx infection from consuming Nova completely. Nova having trouble absorbing some blast isn't any indication that this tech isn't from the previous universe.

Except the Archon didn't say he's a product of Eternity's dreaming. He said "he is the end and the beginning" and "his dark talons reaching out as shadow in Eternity's endless dreaming tainting all who they touch". He's not created by Eternity at all. You lied or you don't understand what you are reading.

The beginning and the ending part is nothing new. It's hyperbole. Ever read the Onslaught Saga? It's just hype of a villain. Are we to believe Odin is omnipotent?

His dark talons reaching out as a shadow in Eternity's dreaming. His dark talon/claws are just a shadow in Eternity's endless dream. That's how pathetic weak this being is. His hands/claws that taint all who he touches is a shadow of Eternity's dream. How does a dream have shadow? It doesn't. A shadow in a dream can occur. Eternity is the universe. The Celestials come into being as a product of Eternity's dream. This being is a mere shadow of Eternity's dream, then he is a product of Eternity like everything else in the universe.

Individual Watchers may intervene from time to time but the Archon specifically said "THOSE WHO WATCH" as in PLURAL created the Archons to guard against Abyss' rising.

Dude, this is getting old. Watcher's intervene all the time. This threat isn't even enough for them to get themselves involved; they left lackeys in charge.

Reading comprehension fail yet again. You were the one who said "how could the Watchers know anything about the Abyss if he predates this universe and the Watchers didn't come into existence till this universe was around" I merely said, IF the Watchers, who WERE NOT AROUND when Galan became Galactus in the previous universe, yet they know of his origin, why couldn't they likewise discover the existence of the Abyss over time?

No. The Archons were put in place billions of years ago by the Watchers. The Watchers met Reed in modern times. And from then on have stated that Galactus is the sole survivor. Every book in modern time have acknowledged Galactus as the sole survivor. How can the Watchers and the abstracts in modern time claim Galactus as the sole survivor if they knew billions of years ago that Abyss is also from the prior universe? Or are you saying the Watchers discovered this recently and went back to Mars and told the last Archon about this?

No! Read the god damn scans. The Martian Archons were created to prevent the Darkest Child from rising, freeing his brothers, then freeing their father. He was stationed to watch over the 7 headed serpent crown of thorns. That's why I provided the scans where he said so EXPLICITLY.

The Archon would not know of this because the Archon was inactive ON MARS. He was activated only after Nova took the 7 headed serpent crown of thorns. He didn't even activate when the Tentacle Crown was stolen from it's burial spot on Mars. He didn't even SEEK OUT the Tentacle Crown after he got his hands on the CROWN HE WAS STATIONED OVER!

Okay, so the Archon wouldn't have activated until that specific crown was taken. So Set is Abyss and his rise in Atlantis Attack wouldn't activate the Archon because that specific crown wasn't taken. Gotcha. So Set predates the current universe and the Watchers didn't discover this until after having told everybody that Galactus is the sole survivor for the last 30-40 years. It all makes sense now. The Watchers just recently told the last Archon about this before the crown was taken in SA. UNLESS, the Watchers time traveled back billions of years ago to when they built the Archons and loaded this knowledge into them.

Set merely wanted his Serpent Men to reign supreme because his previous touchstone to Earth, the dinosaurs, were wiped out. Gaea wanted to let the dinosaurs die off but Set wouldn't have it and ordered the dinosaurs to wipe out the mammals. I doubt that Set was even aware what Omega Level mutants were, hell the fuggin' writers didn't even have that in mind back in the late 80s.

No, but the writers knew what mutants, devaints, and especially the Eternals were. And mutants, eternals, and deviants were still far superior to the Serpent Men back then. Set knew his gift of a more evolved brain wouldn't match up well against the meta gift the wanderers would receive. Hence why Set wanted his Serpent Men to receive that gift. When the Serpent Men fail, the Celestials gift gave men/wanderers dominance over the Serpent Men who at first were far smarter than the wanderers. Both Gaea and Set knew the Celestial's gift would tip the power for either group. The Celestials gave a gift which NEITHER Elder Gods were capable of. Hence, Set acknowledges the Celestials' power.

This story takes place 20+ years after the Serpent Crown Saga! I doubt the writers in the late 80s thought about what someone in 2010 was gonna do.

No, the writers laid down the foundations of Set's history in detail from his beginning all the way through to current times, even differentiating Set from the Egyptian God Seth. Brubaker's SA touches on things but never explains in detail if this being is even Set. There isn't any official retconning at all. What's current history is Earth is ruled by men while the Serpent Men are in hiding. I doubt Brubaker doesn't know Set isn't a techno wiz.