No Empire?
What's the most likely scenario if Mace Windu had sabered Palpatine before Anakin arrived, what would have happened?
1. Does Anakin kill Windu in a fit of rage when he does arrive, believing Padme doomed? Take control of the clone army, take Luke as an apprentice, rule the galaxy?
2. Does Windu beat Anakin like an Afghan orphan, killing him in the process and ending the threat of The Sith?
This isn't Anakin vs Windu. it's "What happens to the galaxy?"
Not at all- this staging idea has always been incorrect. Windu had him beaten. Not only is that important logically, it's also vitally important to the drama of Anakin's plotline that HE made the difference. It's dramatically pointless if he is just following a script.
The whole drive to make the Empire an Empire would have fallen apart without him.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Not at all- this staging idea has always been incorrect. Windu had him beaten. Not only is that important logically, it's also vitally important to the drama of Anakin's plotline that HE made the difference. It's dramatically pointless if he is just following a script.The whole drive to make the Empire an Empire would have fallen apart without him.
No - Sidious was feigning to be beaten, to further manipulate Anakin (whom he knew to be arriving, feeling his approach) into seeing Windu and the Jedi as aggressors, while showing himself as the man of reason, with the knowledge to save Anakin's secret wife. The drama comes from the fact that Anakin finally falls over the brink at that moment.
As great as Windu was, he ranked below Sidious and Yoda as the greatest of Jedi/Sith; but it would have been interesting to see how he would have fared against an enraged Anakin, who did in Count Dooku earlier. The reason Obi Wan managed to defeat Anakin was his mastery of a different lightsaber combat that was heavy on defense, and that he knew Anakin so well for the past 13 years, training him and sparring with him.
A. Sidious was beaten, yes Anakin stepped in but I think that had Anakin not stepped in Sidious would have been toast.
B. The reason Obi-Wan beat Anakin is because Anakin's arrogance allowed him to, Obi-Wan was no more skilled with a lightsaber than Anakin, a fact which was proven in the duel on Mustafar in which neither could out-duel the other. The only thing that gave Obi-Wan the edge was that tactically he had the higher ground and Anakin in his arrogance refused to heed to it.
Originally posted by roughrider
No - Sidious was feigning to be beaten, to further manipulate Anakin (whom he knew to be arriving, feeling his approach) into seeing Windu and the Jedi as aggressors, while showing himself as the man of reason, with the knowledge to save Anakin's secret wife. The drama comes from the fact that Anakin finally falls over the brink at that moment.As great as Windu was, he ranked below Sidious and Yoda as the greatest of Jedi/Sith; but it would have been interesting to see how he would have fared against an enraged Anakin, who did in Count Dooku earlier. The reason Obi Wan managed to defeat Anakin was his mastery of a different lightsaber combat that was heavy on defense, and that he knew Anakin so well for the past 13 years, training him and sparring with him.
Nonsense. Windu out and out beat him. The only evidence we have of which of them was a better fighter was what happened on screen when they fought. Windu won. The idea that this was some sort of ridiculously elaborate fake by Sidious (when Windu could have killed him so very easily- what a stupid risk to take!) has no backing at all and only exists in unreasonable imaginations.
No, the drama is that Anakin doomed the galaxy to the Empire. His personal issues had now become destructive for everyone, What happened to him as a person was hardly that dramatic; the effect it had on the storyline was.
Couple of things to clarify....
Mace beat Palpatine with a lightsaber. That much is ligit.......he won the duel.
Palpatine however, faked being too weak to continue fighting Mace after he realized Mace could deflect his force lightning. At that point for Palps it was "Oh snap....plan B?" You can see it when he glances over at Anakin....when he gives him that "are you buying into my BS?" look. And plus, after Mace loses his arm, well....we all know the Emperor unleashes the biggest blast of force-lightning we've seen yet....so the whole being "too weak" thing was most definitely staged.......but not the actual duel itself.
Palpatine manipulates Anakin throughout the movie into thinking he needs him in order to save Padme....thus, is the reason for Anakin siding with him instead of Mace...and ultimately, changing the course of fate for the Republic.
Palpatine planted the seeds, Anakin watered them.
That Afghan orphan analogy is insanely inappropriate. It speaks volumes of your mentality. Moving on...
Remember, Anakin snitched out Palpatine to begin with. It was in the Council Chambers, while reflecting on his decision, that Palpatine reached out to him and gave him the push he needed.
"If I die, all hope is lost..."
If he got there and Mace had killed him, he would've just been like:
"Oh. You got him already, huh?"
There's nothing he can do. That avenue is closed.
He'd probably go back to Yoda and admit he's screwing Padme and that she's pregnant and he needs to find a way to keep her safe from his visions.
Cooler heads prevail. He should've just been out with it and gotten the proper counseling he needed. Maybe he and Padme could've picked out the casket together. Make it an event. 🙂
Originally posted by Sith Master X
Couple of things to clarify....Mace beat Palpatine with a lightsaber. That much is ligit.......he won the duel.
Palpatine however, faked being too weak to continue fighting Mace after he realized Mace could deflect his force lightning. At that point for Palps it was "Oh snap....plan B?" You can see it when he glances over at Anakin....when he gives him that "are you buying into my BS?" look. And plus, after Mace loses his arm, well....we all know the Emperor unleashes the biggest blast of force-lightning we've seen yet....so the whole being "too weak" thing was most definitely staged.......but not the actual duel itself.
Palpatine manipulates Anakin throughout the movie into thinking he needs him in order to save Padme....thus, is the reason for Anakin siding with him instead of Mace...and ultimately, changing the course of fate for the Republic.
Palpatine planted the seeds, Anakin watered them.
Yes, Palps changing plan there to get Anakin to do what he did- that's fine and dandy and reasonable.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Nonsense. Windu out and out beat him. The only evidence we have of which of them was a better fighter was what happened on screen when they fought. Windu won. The idea that this was some sort of ridiculously elaborate fake by Sidious (when Windu could have killed him so very easily- what a stupid risk to take!) has no backing at all and only exists in unreasonable imaginations.No, the drama is that Anakin doomed the galaxy to the Empire. His personal issues had now become destructive for everyone, What happened to him as a person was hardly that dramatic; the effect it had on the storyline was.
The problem was we saw Palpatine go through three of Windu's Jedi like a knife through butter at the beginning of the duel, so he obviously had the power to end things quickly. But he needed to manipulate things further with Anakin, so he drew things out with Windu - this was the big gamble, right next to launching the Clone Wars. 13 plus years of manipulations & schemes had built to that moment, right from the time he sensed Anakin's potential (and potential weakness) as a boy, to convert him into his instrument to wipe out the Jedi.
Also, we saw the greatest of the Jedi - Yoda - only managed a narrow stalemate with Palpatine later on. That was Palpatine going full out, no need for masks anymore as he had his victory, or to feign weakness. To suggest the opposite is to say Windu was a greater Jedi & fighter than Yoda, in my opinion.
All those fight make SW very muddled and the Jedi very questionable in their abilities and powers. Those two fights are so bizarre... In the end Yoda couldn't manage to beat Dooku (we never know how it would have ended), yet Anakin kicks his butt. Yoda is almost as powerful as Sidious... and Mace fairly easily beats Sidious... How does this work?????
Originally posted by roughrider
The problem was we saw Palpatine go through three of Windu's Jedi like a knife through butter at the beginning of the duel, so he obviously had the power to end things quickly. But he needed to manipulate things further with Anakin, so he drew things out with Windu - this was the big gamble, right next to launching the Clone Wars. 13 plus years of manipulations & schemes had built to that moment, right from the time he sensed Anakin's potential (and potential weakness) as a boy, to convert him into his instrument to wipe out the Jedi.Also, we saw the greatest of the Jedi - Yoda - only managed a narrow stalemate with Palpatine later on. That was Palpatine going full out, no need for masks anymore as he had his victory, or to feign weakness. To suggest the opposite is to say Windu was a greater Jedi & fighter than Yoda, in my opinion.
Not a problem at all. Windu was much better than those others.
You are greatly overcomplicating to absolutely no purpose at all. It's rather pointless. Windu won- straight out.
Windu is also clearly a better duellist than Yoda. Yoda is greater in other ways.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, your mature and sensible argument has won me over, clearly.Don't spam like that in future.
Like Deep Throat keeps saying to Bob Woodward in All the President's Men (about the Watergate conspiracy) "...You're missing the overall!"
Why did Palpatine reveal to Anakin that he knew the force, that he was a Sith Lord? Why then? Because with everything happening in the galaxy, and with Anakin's secret life that he knew about, he felt this was the moment to finally turn Anakin. Anakin was still beholden enough to the Jedi to turn him in, but Palpatine wasn't worried. He felt he had planted it deep enough in Anakin that he would be at his side when the moment came. That moment wouldn't be there if Anakin returned to his office and found Paplatine had killed Windu and his group - or even if he had Windu at his mercy and told him he had to choose right then to join him or the Jedi would take over and the knowledge he sought form him would be lost. He had to put Anakin in a place where he physically used the force in fear & anger, which leads to the dark side.
Anakin had pushed the line dangerously before against the Sandpeople and Dooku; attacking & aiding in the death of Jedi masters would be the act that Palpatine felt would push him over the edge for good. Hence, he let himself appear to be beaten and about to be executed on the spot by Windu, who told Anakin the Chancellor was too dangerous & powerful to be taken alive and put on trial. Palpatine gambled that Anakin's sense of right & wrong had become clouded enough that he would do what he thought was 'right' (but was really him acting in his own self interest, for Padme), and he was right. Even though Anakin immediately was horrified at the decision he made, it was too late to go back then.
Palpatine was never beaten by Windu. He had gambled, feigned weakness and won.
How is it silly? Palpatine wants Anakin as his apprentice all the way back since TPM. This was the final conversion, Palpatine wished to force Anakin's hand. Regardless, GL himself says Palpatine was "overpowered" in the saber duel but "pretends to lose his powers" in the force duel.
Honestly, how do you think Anakin's coversion would turn out if Palpatine was sitting on his chair surronded by four dead Jedi... Palpatine played the part of the victim. He made Anakin sympathize with him. That's the way I view the scene anyway.