No Empire?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No that's all just irrelevant supposition on your part. Again, no idea why you overcomplicate so; nearly all of what you said is entirely irrelevant.

Windu, plainly and demonstrably, beat Palpatine and that is all there is to it. The idea Palpatine faked the fight is simply silly.

Well, then I guess you saw a completely different film series. One where a bunch of random events occurred, and nowhere was there the hand of Darth Sidious manipulating things on a giant scale. Because that's the series George Lucas intended for us to see.

Palpatine was done for. He got his ass handed to him by Mace - even his lightning was useless. Had Anakin not been there, Palpatine would've been killed. As soon as he stopped trying to hit Mace with lightning, Mace would've took his head off.

Anakin went there with his mind made up. He ran in there ready to sell his soul. He didn't flinch to protect Mace in any way, shape or form. Anakin went there to make sure Palpatine walked out of it safe and sound.

Palpatine played weak to maneuver himself and essentially hide behind Anakin. If Mace wanted Palpatine, he'd have to go through Anakin.

Again, had Anakin not showed - Palpatine would've been in pieces.

Mace and Yoda are THE top dogs. Yoda lost to Palps only cuz the Emperor called in the Clone Army. Yoda lost to Dooku only cuz he got distracted. Palpatine ain't stronger than Yoda...cuz that would mean Obi-Wan is stronger than ANYONE - 'cuz ONLY HE has defeated a Sith Lord. But then how does he loose to Dooku...TWICE...in a FAIR FIGHT!

Yoda simply failed in his assassination attempt. You don't get another shot of those with a guy who has an entire Empire at his disposal.

Does that mean Mace is stronger than Yoda? Hmmm...how 'bout you switch roles. What if Yoda had tried to arrest Palpatine and Mace had tried to assassinate him. Probably have the same outcome.

Except, Mace would be the one stuck on Dagobah. THAT would be awsome. An old Mace teaching Luke. "I never trusted your dad..."

*inserts DVD of Empire Strikes Back in player*

Originally posted by roughrider
Well, then I guess you saw a completely different film series. One where a bunch of random events occurred, and nowhere was there the hand of Darth Sidious manipulating things on a giant scale. Because that's the series George Lucas intended for us to see.

Again, you are completely irrelevant there. No-one is denying that Sidious is a manipulator., But not one tiny part of that changes the fact that Mace beat him in the duel.

You accuse me of not watching it, but you are just projecting your own fantasies about Sidious onto what you see and hence grossly misinterpreting what is simply shown on screen. Not good.

Again- Windu simply out and out beat Sidious. Sidious improvised to turn Anakin at the key moment. If Anakin had not done that, Sidious would have been dead and there would be no empire.

Saying he faked it is silly as that fight was not some calculated thing that Palpaitne could have set every stage of. Windu could exceptionally easily have killed him- if he had not hesitated, for example. He wouldn't take such an insane risk. Saying that Sidious could manipulate the sabre fight in THAT much detail- yes, plain silly, and basically in denial of what you see on screen. Palpatine gets so many things wrong in the PT; I am amazed why so many people think he can plan absolutely everything to a perfect degree- and you do the likes of Windu an enormous disservice.

Windu won.

Then Anakin stepped in and ruined the flow of things.

"Good guys no win...Bad guys win. Me need wife...alive."

It's Anakin's Saga, not Palpatine's Epic-Brilliant-Manipulation-of-Everybody-and-Everything the Movie.

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
Anakin went there with his mind made up. He ran in there ready to sell his soul. He didn't flinch to protect Mace in any way, shape or form. Anakin went there to make sure Palpatine walked out of it safe and sound.

No he didn’t. Anakin wanted Palpatine “to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers." He wasn’t ready to join the Sith yet, he simply wanted to save his wife. But this moment forced him into deciding to join the Sith (and get the powers) or the Jedi.

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
Mace and Yoda are THE top dogs. Yoda lost to Palps only cuz the Emperor called in the Clone Army. Yoda lost to Dooku only cuz he got distracted. Palpatine ain't stronger than Yoda...cuz that would mean Obi-Wan is stronger than ANYONE - 'cuz ONLY HE has defeated a Sith Lord. But then how does he loose to Dooku...TWICE...in a FAIR FIGHT!

Yoda lost to (or some claim stalemated) Palpatine because he was outmaneuvered, not because Palps called in his army. And no Yoda did not lose to Dooku. Dooku threw everything he had at Yoda all to no avail and eventually he was forced to flee. The rest of your paragraph makes absolutely no sense…

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Saying he faked it is silly as that fight was not some calculated thing that Palpaitne could have set every stage of. Windu could exceptionally easily have killed him- if he had not hesitated, for example. He wouldn't take such an insane risk. Saying that Sidious could manipulate the sabre fight in THAT much detail- yes, plain silly, and basically in denial of what you see on screen. Palpatine gets so many things wrong in the PT; I am amazed why so many people think he can plan absolutely everything to a perfect degree- and you do the likes of Windu an enormous disservice.

No one said Palaptine calculated every stage. He simply went in to the duel with the intent to lose. Was it an insane risk? Yes it was, but so to was the entire war. He could have easily conquered the entire galaxy with force. He could simply have not mobilized the clones. The majority of the Jedi would have fallen at Geonosis and then through some “bad” military decisions the galaxy would belong to the Separatists. But instead he chose the far more risky but profitable way. Also he let Greivous capture him. This was another risky maneuver but he did it to groom his future apprentice. Really everything Palpatine did was risky but he thought the benefits outweighed the risks. And Anakin is the ideal Sith apprentice with basically the highest potential ever.

Anakin didn't show up to supervise. He showed up ready to play.

Anakin went there to make sure Palpatine went to trial? Well, why didn't Anakin tell Palpatine he was under arrest? Why didn't he tell Palpatine to stand down? Why did Anakin let Palpatine kill Mace?

Palpatine forced him to?

Anakin went there with the ABSOLUTE INTENT on backing Palpatine's play...whatever it may be. Palpatine was his path to power...he's not gonna be a great teacher behind bars...or during a trial.

When Anakin left the Council Chambers, he knew what it would all come down to, but he didn't want to do it. He was hesitant. He spat out everything he could to make Mace stop. He didn't want to do it, he didn't like it, he couldn't believe he actually did it, BUT he was prepared and Palpatine knew it as soon as Anakin walked in.

If Anakin caught Mace on the way out of the building with Palpatine in handcuffs, you're saying Anakin would've escorted him to jail w/ Mace?

Anakin would've tried to free Palpatine...which would inevitably lead to a fight to the death...despite Anakin's reluctance to do so.

"Let him go...I need him!"

Not, "Your Highness, before you go - I DO need to speak with your attorney so we can work out a schedule for my Dark Side training."

What do you think all the tears were about in the Council Chambers? It was about the horrible choice he just made. Then he ran before Palpatine was beyond his reach...ie: JAIL or DEAD

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
Anakin went there to make sure Palpatine went to trial? Well, why didn't Anakin tell Palpatine he was under arrest? Why didn't he tell Palpatine to stand down? Why did Anakin let Palpatine kill Mace?

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
Palpatine forced him to?

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
Anakin went there with the ABSOLUTE INTENT on backing Palpatine's play...whatever it may be. Palpatine was his path to power...he's not gonna be a great teacher behind bars...or during a trial.

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
When Anakin left the Council Chambers, he knew what it would all come down to, but he didn't want to do it. He was hesitant. He spat out everything he could to make Mace stop. He didn't want to do it, he didn't like it, he couldn't believe he actually did it, BUT he was prepared and Palpatine knew it as soon as Anakin walked in.

Prepared for what? To join the Sith? Because no shit. However, he did not go with the intent to do so.

Originally posted by Anakin_the_Hutt
f Anakin caught Mace on the way out of the building with Palpatine in handcuffs, you're saying Anakin would've escorted him to jail w/ Mace?
Anakin would've tried to free Palpatine...which would inevitably lead to a fight to the death...despite Anakin's reluctance to do so.

So Anakin's tears were about: "I hope Palpatine gets a looooong trial."

"He must stand trial!" Is just a rationale...delusions for a reason why Palpatine must live...the truth..."I need him!"

Originally posted by ares834
“He must stand trial!”
Anakin turned him in with the intent that the Jedi would arrest him. Then, as GL himself claims, “pump him for information about how to get these powers."

That may have been the intent...I've pointed that out myself earlier - it was Anakin who snitched on Palpatine in the first place.

But then he realized how unrealistic that plan was...'cuz he decided to interupt his OWN PLAN and un-arrest Palpatine.

*is liking ESB a lot*

I just watched Anakin's turn with commentary. Lucas said Anakin didn't realize Palpatine was going to kill Mace.

Soooo...Anakin didn't know Palpatine would kill Mace given the chance. That, "Oh...I'm weak!" REALLY did a number on Anakin.

Instead of blocking Mace's lightsaber, I guess he missed and accidentally took his hand.

I guess when he deactivated his lightsaber and watched Mace's skeleton light up, Anakin was trying to understand how Palpatine could shoot lightning out of his hands.

Lucas = Wow.

In the Bluray Special Edition, they need to add a couple of soundbytes to that scene. "Oops." (from TPM when Anakin grabs 3PO's eye) after Anakin slices Mace's arm AND "Please, sir - wait!" (from TPM when Anakin is running with Qui-Gon to the ship) when Palpatine is killing Mace...'cuz damn.

The commentary certainly doesn't improver the scene... And indeed, a couple of "OOPPSES" and "Cutting of his arms, that's a good trick" would certainly have given this scene its true meaning.