Originally posted by Space M ummyTherein lies the problem.
What I WAS saying is that just because Zoom is faster than flash does not mean his powers will give him the same advantage against team marvel, since Surfer can manipulate the timestream (potentially negating or reducing the effectiveness of what Zoom does) and Runner is expanding and compressing space to enhance his speed.for example- in terms of relative speed, if 1000 miles of distance for you is the same distance as 1 inch for me because I'm compressing space- who is faster?
Zoom naturally exists ahead of the mainstream timeline, because he lives in his own separate time-bubble, which is disconnected from the timeline, but can still slide along it. Therefore it is impossible for anyone on the Marvel team to react faster than him, because they are all held by parameters of mainstream time... Team Marvel would be statues in comparison to Zoom, just as an amped Wally and Superman were.
Originally posted by Galan007Even the guy who has complete control over space?
Therein lies the problem.Zoom naturally exists ahead of the mainstream timeline, because he lives in his own separate time-bubble, which is disconnected from the timeline, but can still slide along it. Therefore it is impossible for anyone on the Marvel team to react faster than him, because they are all held by parameters of mainstream time... Team Marvel would be statues in comparison to Zoom, just as an amped Wally and Superman were.
Originally posted by Galan007
Therein lies the problem.Zoom naturally exists ahead of the mainstream timeline, because he lives in his own separate time-bubble, which is disconnected from the timeline, but can still slide along it. Therefore it is impossible for anyone on the Marvel team to react faster than him, because they are all held by parameters of mainstream time... Team Marvel would be statues in comparison to Zoom, just as an amped Wally and Superman were.
Surfer has the ability to move forwards, backwards or even across (I don't know what this means) the current timestream. There's a scan in the respect thread of him rolling back time locally to perceive events that happened prior to his arrival.
neither Wally or Superman can manipulate time in that manner.
As for Zoom, I was of the impression that this was more in line with how his powers worked (yes, I got this from wiki, because finding a clear explanation is headache inducing)
Zoom can alter time relative to himself, as opposed to using the Speed Force like most of the DC Universe speedsters do. He can apparently use this ability to move at "speeds" rivaling those of even Wally West, and usually "faster" than the speeds that even Wally can muster in most cases. Rather than actually time traveling, Zoom is controlling the speed at which time flows around him, allowing him to go faster or slower in time than everyone around him.
if he were always permanently "ahead" of the current timeline, he wouldn't be able to interact with it! What he's doing is altering the speed at which time flows around himself- so he still interacts with those in the present, but his actions appear far faster, since 1 second from superman or wally's perspective might be 10 or 20 minutes for Zoom to act. (thereby enabling him to hit hundreds and hundreds of times within that space)
Now assuming that's the case, if time is flowing faster for you, giving you more time to act, but the space you need to travel across in that time frame is FARTHER for you than it is for me, who is faster? It's impossible to say without knowing the absolute limits of what zoom or the space gem can do.
Can the space gem expand/compress space thousands of times over? millions of times over? is zoom increasing the flow of time hundreds of times? thousands?
Originally posted by Galan007Well I was just assuming he actually knew how to use it in this fight. In a forum fight where someone is given the gem you never assume they don't know how to use it.
a.) Runner never displayed 'complete control over space' with the space gem. Subconscious teleportation was his best feat with it, iirc.b.) Complete control over time (ie. the time gem), would be MUCH more effective vs. Zoom.
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Well I was just assuming he actually knew how to use it in this fight. In a forum fight where someone is given the gem you never assume they don't know how to use it.
I assume since Thanos explained to him...painfully..in detail how the gem worked and what it was doing, that runner has some idea of how to use it, but even subconciously it's going to make him as fast as he needs to be by manipulating space around him.
remember, runner was crossing interstellar distances without realizing it. The gem's ability to move an object through space is pretty substantial.
Jay gave an explanation regarding how Zoom's powers work -- as did Zoom himself. BOTH state that Zoom exists ahead of the mainstream timeline, in his own bubble of time. Wiki is wrong in this case.
Furthermore, unless you think that anyone on the Marvel team can react faster than an AMPED Wally, then they wouldn't even begin to approach Zoom's speed -- as even after Wally was amped, he was still a slow feeb in comparison to Zoom.
Originally posted by Black bolt zWhy would I assume Runner has more control over the space gem in this thread, then he ever displayed on panel?
Well I was just assuming he actually knew how to use it in this fight. In a forum fight where someone is given the gem you never assume they don't know how to use it.
That's setting yourself up for purely opinion-based debating, right there.
Originally posted by Galan007Well in any fight where someone is given the gem no one ever brings up the fact that they don't know how to use it. they just go with it assuming they do.
Why would I assume Runner has more control over the space gem in this thread, then he ever displayed on panel?That's setting yourself up for purely opinion-based debating, right there.
Wouldn't that be the point here?
Originally posted by Black bolt zYou think the point was to have Runner using the gem to its max, despite him not having a clue how to use it when it was in his possession?
Well in any fight where someone is given the gem no one ever brings up the fact that they don't know how to use it. they just go with it assuming they do.Wouldn't that be the point here?
I disagree entirely.
Originally posted by Galan007
Jay gave an explanation regarding how Zoom's powers work -- as did Zoom himself. BOTH state that Zoom exists ahead of the mainstream timeline, in his own bubble of time. Wiki is wrong in this case.Furthermore, unless you think that anyone on the Marvel team can react faster than an AMPED Wally, then they wouldn't even begin to approach Zoom's speed -- as even after Wally was amped, he was still a slow feeb in comparison to Zoom.
I'd like to see a scan that clears it up, since I've had difficulty finding a concrete source on that. Again, if i'm literally "ahead" of you in the timestream, I won't be able to interact with you, and clearly zoom does interact with those in the current timeline.
edit: the scan posted above seems to back me up here. Zoom isn't "ahead" in the timeline, his own personal timeline moves at a different speed, which he controls. So time for him can move far faster OR far slower depending on how he wills it. Wiki appears to be RIGHT here.
but as for speed-
Surfer was able to conduct a thorough search of the entire planet's surface in a matter of seconds- no more than 2 or 3. That's 57,506,000 square miles. easily hundreds of times light speed. And remember that Surfer's board has a separate power source and surfer expends no energy traveling with it.
EVEN given that, his speed was nothing to a runner without the gem equipped. Runner slowed himself down to fight with surfer in their fight, and you have a space gem equipped runner here, who is far faster. Either one of those two is on or above wally's level, amped or not.
The space gem can easily manipulate space and therefore distance to whatever means the wielder wants. It doesn't just give teleportation powers, it allows the user to manipulate the very fabric of space itself. To quote Thanos on the space gem, "Distance becomes a mere intellectual concept", without distance speed is meaningless.
E.g., the formula for speed:
Speed (V) = Total Distance Traveled / Total Time Taken = d/t
If distance was made zero, then speed will always equal zero. A wielder of the space gem could easily just nullify distance (i.e., make it zero), and speed itself becomes irrelevant in the battle.
This is assuming Runner in this fight knows how to wield the gem.
Originally posted by vince_slice
The space gem can easily manipulate space and therefore distance to whatever means the wielder wants. It doesn't just give teleportation powers, it allows the user to manipulate the very fabric of space itself. To quote Thanos on the space gem, "Distance becomes a mere intellectual concept", without distance speed is meaningless.E.g., the formula for speed:
Speed (V) = Total Distance Traveled / Total Time Taken = d/t
If distance was made zero, then speed will always equal zero. A wielder of the space gem could easily just nullify distance (i.e., make it zero), and speed itself becomes irrelevant in the battle.
This is assuming Runner in this fight knows how to wield the gem.
exactly. used to it's full capacity runner would annihilate the entire DC team by himself.
But, it's not fair to assume that runner will be able to use it this way- Thanos explained how he was using the gem so its reasonable to assume he knows HOW he was appearing to places "instantaneously" now (before, he really didn't know) but it may not be reasonable to assume he's going to be performing advanced manipulation of space with it.
Thanos or Warlock with the gem would dominate here though, no question.
Originally posted by Space M ummyI've posted the scans multiple times. I've even posted them in the respect thread. They shouldn't be hard to find. Wiki is VERY FAR from right -- but if you'd like to keep using its info as though it supersedes on panel statements, then go right ahead.
I'd like to see a scan that clears it up, since I've had difficulty finding a concrete source on that. Again, if i'm literally "ahead" of you in the timestream, I won't be able to interact with you, and clearly zoom does interact with those in the current timeline.edit: the scan posted above seems to back me up here. Zoom isn't "ahead" in the timeline, his own personal timeline moves at a different speed, which he controls. So time for him can move far faster OR far slower depending on how he wills it. Wiki appears to be RIGHT here.
but as for speed-
Surfer was able to conduct a thorough search of the entire planet's surface in a matter of seconds- no more than 2 or 3. That's 57,506,000 square miles. easily hundreds of times light speed. And remember that Surfer's board has a separate power source and surfer expends no energy traveling with it.
EVEN given that, his speed was [b]nothing
to a runner without the gem equipped. Runner slowed himself down to fight with surfer in their fight, and you have a space gem equipped runner here, who is far faster. Either one of those two is on or above wally's level, amped or not. [/B]
Runner besting Surfer does NOT lead me to believe he [Runner] is Flash-level... Let alone AMPED Flash-level... Let alone Zoom-level. Through most of that battle, Runner's "likable aura" was hindering Surfer.
Originally posted by Galan007
I've posted the scans multiple times. I've even posted them in the respect thread. They shouldn't be hard to find. Wiki is VERY FAR from right -- but if you'd like to keep using its info as though it supersedes on panel statements, then go right ahead.Runner besting Surfer does NOT lead me to believe he [Runner] is Flash-level... Let alone AMPED Flash-level... Let alone Zoom-level. Through most of that battle, Runner's "likable aura" was hindering Surfer.
The scan that's posted above is in line with wiki's definition, and not what your definition is.
And remember that runner SLOWED HIMSELF DOWN prior to engaging surfer in battle- surfer was too slow to catch him. The euphoric effect hadn't even begun to take effect.
and how is 57 million square miles in a couple of seconds not "flash level?"
