Exar Kun, Marek and Dooku vs. Bane, Caedus and Krayt

Originally posted by Q99
Compared to how old he later became he is 🙂 Less than 1/4th his total lifespan, and that was before he has any Sith training after all.

Becoming a sith does not mean that your skills with a lightsaber improves. Has he kept up with saber practice, and is there any proof he became better?

Originally posted by Q99
I'm pretty sure at least the Emperor's Cousin was a master. And sure, while it's not as much as Palp's (because we know Kit Fisto at least was pretty good too), it's still fairly impressive considering no surprise and surrounded.

Well according to Obi Wan (ROTS novel), Mace and company were considered some four of the greatest duelist the jedi order has ever produced. I believe there is also an omniscience source that confirms them to be excellent duelists.

While it does show Krayt still held tremendous skill with a saber, killing imperial knights is hard to compare to his lightsaber feats as a jedi. Obi Wan could have killed those imperial knights with the same ease for all we know.

Originally posted by Q99
But combined with raw power, which is what gave Anakin the edge against Dooku in their final fight.

Anakin tapping into his raw force potential in a focused rage is what gave Anakin the victory over Dooku. Anakin is potentionally far more powerful than Palpatine. Anakin at this point would annihilate Darth Krayt. They can't even be compared.

Originally posted by Q99
Both, I'd say. The guy's huge as well as being very powerful.

Dooku is not a small fella, nor is he weak.

Originally posted by Q99
And Obi-wan's a rather impressive duelist himself who in sword skill is pretty near that level himself.

No, I wouldn't put Obi Wan on Mace's level in sword skill. Obi Wan's mastery in soresu, which is the ultimate form designed for defense, is what makes Obi Wan stand out among most jedi in dueling. That, and his calmness and patience. Obi Wan is a very difficult jedi to kill because of his mastery with the ultimate defense form. Krayt is not known for these qualities like Obi Wan is.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, but he's also studied the darkside for a fraction of the time. A decade or two compared to Krayt's century.

Krayt's searched out Sith knowledge across the galaxy, and does have Holocrons and sources Dooku didn't like XoXaan and Vergere.

You have to remember- Palpatine had ramsacked the galaxy for most of it's greatest works of force knowledge during his rule. I am not sure there was much left for Krayt to find, and I am pretty sure Palpatine did not leave any of his findings for Krayt to have.

Also, Vergere was a short-time apprentice to Sidious. Most of her knowledge likely came from him. I am not so sure she can teach Krayt anything Dooku does not know himself.

Originally posted by Q99
No argument that he's highly refined, but power's won out against Dooku's refinement before.

Only Anakin's that I can remember. And you haven't proved that Krayt is more powerful than Dooku.

Originally posted by Q99
The ship blew up, yes.

Fighting through a shipful of Vong warriors with no weapons when they can't be sensed in the force is rather impressive in itself.

Vong are also highly vulnerable to force lightning. But I will admit, fighting through vong warriors, and causing a ship to blow-up as a result of the damage he caused is very impressive.

Originally posted by Q99
All three of which relied on having an advantage in strength of force.

For Dooku to easily overpower other powerful force users proves how strong Dooku is in the force. Ventress' growing powers were enough to get Sidious' attention and veiw her as a potential threat.

Originally posted by Q99
Krayt's had no problem defending against lightning and TK from any opponent, even Celeste Morne, an ancient Jedi Master who was tapping into the power of the Muur Talisman to boost her strength.

But has he defended TK from someone as refined as Count Dooku.

Originally posted by Q99
Obi-wan level skill + 130 years and extensive Sith training isn't even close?

I need proof that his skills with a saber greatly improved. Sith training does not include it's own set of saber forms. For instance, when Dooku began his training under Darth Sidious, he learned how to access his force powers in different ways, and learned different techniques that only the dark side could offer. Now Dooku may have chose to keep up in saber practice, but there was little else Sidious could teach him on that.

Originally posted by Q99
And Cade Skywalker throws starships and Krayt toyed with him.

I don't remember Cade walking around throwing starships. I do remember him throwing a small ship at Talon in a fit of rage, kinda like that one-time feat Anakin pulled on Dooku. Cade was a Skywalker and his potential is probably very high. It was Krayt's greater refinement and mastery over his powers that allowed him to toy with Cade.

Originally posted by Q99
Wyyrlok threw a lot of stuff at him when they fought in War too, but it was all just brushed aside.

I'm not saying Krayt is lacking in TK, but he hasn't showed that he is as good as Dooku in that department.

Originally posted by Q99
Dooku can redirect lightning, I don't see him doing so bare-handed from someone as strong as Wyyrlok.

He redirected his own lightning that was threw back at him fairly easy.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, I've posted plenty of examples of Krayt doing awesome stuff fairly regularly, not sure why none of that is enough.

Because none of it beats Dooku's greater showings.

I must admit, you have convinced me that he would give Dooku a better challenge than I thought. But I see the other four closer in power than Dooku and Krayt.

Originally posted by Q99
Where are you getting the idea he's weaker?

Dooku having greater feats and accolades IMO.

Where are you getting the idea he's stronger?

Originally posted by Q99
He's had comparison points to almost every era after all- Ancient Sith, Andeddu got crushed by Wyyrlok. KotoR, a Master further empowered by the talisman is no match for Krayt according to Muur himself.

All we know is that Andeddu had a lot of knowledge, but we do not know how good he was at anything.

And according to Ares Morne was able to fight both Krayt and Maladi off at the same time. But I have not read that comic yet, I've only went through it and glanced at the pics, so... IDK.

Originally posted by Q99
Clone Wars, well he himself was a highly skilled CW saber master, rather high up in an order known for it's saber skills, and has shown himself to be far more powerful than he was back then.

Force wise, he has become more powerful, but I don't know how much his skills with a lightsaber greatly increased. I don't even know if he kept up with saber practice regularly.

Originally posted by Q99
He was beating Muur's lightning until he got stabbed in the neck by Azlyn Rae (Imperial Knight). So there are *somewhat* extenuating circumstances 🙂 A saber through the neck'll cramp anyone's style.

Well like I said, I only skimed through the comic and glanced at the pics, so I'm glad you clarified that for me.

Was Krayt any threat to Muur at all? Or was Krayt fighting for his life trying to defend against Muur's lightning and not be overwhelmed by it? I recall Muur mocking Krayt and claiming to have easily defeated opponents who were more powerful than Krayt.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Becoming a sith does not mean that your skills with a lightsaber improves. Has he kept up with saber practice, and is there any proof he became better?

Well I sincerely doubt A'Sharad could cut down four Imperial Knights as he did against Fel's personal bodyguards (one of whom was a Fel, who tend to be powerful in the force themselves).

Sabers appear to be his focus and there's no sign he's let up. They're the thing he uses primarily in combat. He trained an order by hand, keeps in practice, and holds the advantage against every other saber duelist we've seen him face.

He's also supposedly fought thousands of foes over the centuries, so he has had plenty of additional experience.

Anakin tapping into his raw force potential in a focused rage is what gave Anakin the victory over Dooku. Anakin is potentionally far more powerful than Palpatine. Anakin at this point would annihilate Darth Krayt. They can't even be compared.

Anakin's potentially far more powerful than Palps, but at that point still hadn't reached that potential.

Krayt has less total potential but far more time to build up his max, and a very powerful rage himself.

Dooku is not a small fella, nor is he weak.

Smaller than Krayt.

Dealing with high strength is considered something of a weakness of Makashi.

No, I wouldn't put Obi Wan on Mace's level in sword skill. Obi Wan's mastery in soresu, which is the ultimate form designed for defense, is what makes Obi Wan stand out among most jedi in dueling. That, and his calmness and patience. Obi Wan is a very difficult jedi to kill because of his mastery with the ultimate defense form. Krayt is not known for these qualities like Obi Wan is.

Mace is the best, but beneath Mace, Obi-wan is one of the closest. Obi-wan's far more defensive, while A'Sharad's style was more offensive, but total skill was close between them.

Only Anakin's that I can remember. And you haven't proved that Krayt is more powerful than Dooku.

You haven't proved that Dooku is more powerful than Krayt. Krayt's got a ton of impressive feats.

For Dooku to easily overpower other powerful force users proves how strong Dooku is in the force. Ventress' growing powers were enough to get Sidious' attention and veiw her as a potential threat.

Well, on 'overpowering others,' Wyyrlok was able to overpower the Sith Lord Andeddu in his strong point, force powers, and Krayt was able to overpower him- specifically breaking through the very same move Wyyrlok used to beat Andeddu.

Krayt was overpowering Cade and overpowering Morne.

He overpowers a lot of people.

But has he defended TK from someone as refined as Count Dooku.

He defended Wyyrlok's TK, who's pretty refined himself. But admittedly not a lot of anti-TK situations have come up for him.

I need proof that his skills with a saber greatly improved. Sith training does not include it's own set of saber forms. For instance, when Dooku began his training under Darth Sidious, he learned how to access his force powers in different ways, and learned different techniques that only the dark side could offer. Now Dooku may have chose to keep up in saber practice, but there was little else Sidious could teach him on that.

He was already not far from the top, and large increases in strength in the force like he had tend to improve one's effectiveness in a duel.

Dooku's a great example- Sidious taught him little in terms of saber, yet Sith-Dooku would certainly beat Jedi-Dooku due to his improvements in force power.

Same for Krayt.

I'm not saying Krayt is lacking in TK, but he hasn't showed that he is as good as Dooku in that department.

Granted, it's not one he leans on heavily. Lightning seems to be his preference.

I think the only time I can recall him using it at all is force-shoving Cade in the face during their duel.

Because none of it beats Dooku's greater showings.

Well, what ones make you think he's so much greater?

Krayt's strong enough in the force to make his presence felt across the entire galaxy.

When given a choice between Krayt and Skywalker as bodies, Muur wanted Krayt. That's a pretty high accolade.

Dooku having greater feats and accolades IMO.

Accolades yes, but how much of that is just because he's been in more stuff?

Krayt has other Sith talk smack about them, but then they actually try and step up and then they die. Most of the smack talk is really about philosophy rather than power, that and the fact that Sith always talk smack. Dooku talked smack about Yoda, remember.

In terms of actual combat and force feats, Krayt has shown himself to be very powerful, as has his strongest students.

Only Morne and Cade have really been able to even hold their own against him, and both of them were on the defensive and shoved around against him.

All we know is that Andeddu had a lot of knowledge, but we do not know how good he was at anything.

He was a fairly legendary dude and from a time of many sith lords fighting for supremacy.

He was so feared the other Sith Lords of the era banded together to defeat him, and even then it was ultimately betrayal that forced him to flee Korriban.

Sounds like a pretty badass guy to me.

And according to Ares Morne was able to fight both Krayt and Maladi off at the same time. But I have not read that comic yet, I've only went through it and glanced at the pics, so... IDK.

Maladi showed up to throw in some force lightning, but didn't stay long (there were plenty of other foes around), and when she showed up Muur was all like, "Haha, Morne, you're doomed! You were gonna lose to Krayt before, but now you're going to last, like, 2 seconds! Gimme your body! Gimme gimme!".

Was Krayt any threat to Muur at all? Or was Krayt fighting for his life trying to defend against Muur's lightning and not be overwhelmed by it? I recall Muur mocking Krayt and claiming to have easily defeated opponents who were more powerful than Krayt.

Krayt had no visible trouble in the fight until he got stabbed in the neck, which'll cramp anyone's style. Krayt has never had trouble in any fight we've seen without a back attack involved.

When it was Muur, neither had an edge of note, though I'll mention Muur was already sending in Rakghouls as distractions as well. That didn't last long, Morne retook control, Maladi showed up for one blast, Muur gloated, Maladi left and it was Krayt vs Morne, and this was the situation, Krayt with the clear advantage. Muur takes control again, the sides exchange lightning and smack talk, and then bam, Azlyn Rae lightsabers him from behind. The side-blast of Muur's almost kills Azlyn (which I think speaks of how much power Krayt was facing), and then he gets flug off a cliff.

Btw, the entire fight was less time than the Morne vs Vader fight.

Didn't A'Sharad completely pwn ROTS Anakin at one point in lightsaber combat? If I recall Anakin was using the darkside as well.

R.B., elsewhere
Oh, for the record, I was flipping through Star Wars Insider #113 and I found an interesting quote that might shed some more light on the whole Sith spirit tangent of this argument:

"On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted [Cade] Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overwhelming energy[...]" -- page 47.

Though clearly Muur's powers weren't leagues beyond Krayt's own, they were superior.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Didn't A'Sharad completely pwn ROTS Anakin at one point in lightsaber combat? If I recall Anakin was using the darkside as well.

Nah he beat padawan Anakin. And since the new TV series has Anakin knighted within a couple of months of AotC...

Indeed, he beat a fairly rookie Anakin.

Another A'Sharad feat is beating Aurra Sing back when he was just a padawan himself.

Only Morne and Cade have really been able to even hold their own against him, and both of them were on the defensive and shoved around against him.

Oh yea, and Wyyrlok, who was on more even terms.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Though clearly Muur's powers weren't leagues beyond Krayt's own, they were superior.

Have you read the fight? Muur didn't gain an edge until Krayt was stabbed in the neck.

Muur's force powers wasn't enough to gain an advantage in direct combat... and keep in mind, Vader thought that with the Talisman, he would be strong enough to overthrow Palpatine.

Originally posted by Q99
Have you read the fight?

I have, but it's been a while. In any case, it doesn't really matter if I have or haven't. The source clearly states that, even if by a negligible amount, Muur's powers were greater than both Krayt's and Cade's.

Q99
and keep in mind, Vader thought that with the Talisman, he could overthrow Palpatine.

First, simply because Vader thought it doesn't make it so. Second, I personally wouldn't find that too hard to believe. In addition to Muur clearly being a Force-user of extraordinary power, experience, and knowledge, Darth Vader's Force potential is the highest in galactic history. Why wouldn't their combined energies defeat Palpatine? He might be, individually, the most powerful, intelligent, handsomest, and most important person in the mythos, but that doesn't make him invincible. It just makes him better than Nihilus, Mark A. Ragnos, and Dooku.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
I have, but it's been a while. In any case, it doesn't really matter if I have or haven't. The source clearly states that, even if by a negligible amount, Muur's powers were greater than both Krayt's and Cade's.

I suppose it does make sense. After all, everyone wanted his abilities, Krayt included, and he had incredible sith sorcery.

Still, combat-wise, Muur-in-Morne was just holding his own until Azlyn helped.

Originally posted by Q99
I suppose it does make sense. After all, everyone wanted his abilities, Krayt included, and he had incredible sith sorcery.

Still, combat-wise, Muur-in-Morne was just holding his own until Azlyn helped.

If I'm not mistaken, didn't Muur hold his own against Krayt and Maladi?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Muur hold his own against Krayt and Maladi?

Nope.

Morne was in charge at the time (though drawing on the talisman), they force-lightning her to her knees (with Muur trying to use it to convince Morne to give in to him), then Krayt went solo again and gave Morne a speech about mastering Muur together.

Maladi literally showed up for one force-lightning then left.

Team 2