Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Preview art for New Avengers 15. Squirrel Girl goes feral and beats him up afterwards.Not a very surprising outcome, Cap and Wolverine are more skilled than Danny and Shang-Chi, anyone paying attention has known this for years.
I'm definitely going to count that. To bad it was training/practice it and you don't consider it much though from what I remember.
Originally posted by srankmissingninA real fight. No quotes needed. Wolverine had his age, skill combat experience and powerset as comics show. It just didn't matter. Wolverine was not an essentially different character back then. And yes, I did read his earliest appearances just to see how much truth there is to this powerless, baseline, completely different Wolverine character. There weren't many appearances, so it wasn't hard. Color me surprised that it didnt turn out the way you argued.
A "real" fight that happened years before any of Wolverine's character development which established his age, skill combat experience and powerset. Of course that first fight matters less, Wolverine was essentially a different character who just happened to have the same name... and even then all Danny could do was temp BFR remove him from the apartment.
Back before he met Iron Fist, he was a mutant, he had "powers," he was really strong, really fast, freakishly durable, he had adamantium, he went into berserker rages, embarassed others in training sessions, he was a trained operative for the Canadian government, he said "bub," he was mysterious (in that there's-more-to-him-than-meets-the-eye type of way), and he was capable of going toe-to-toe with the Hulk and Wendigo of course. That sound like Wolverine's character to you?
Sounds like Wolverine's character to me. It only took another several months after his fight with Iron Fist for the mysteriously ill-defined "powers" to be revealed as accelerated healing. Which was pretty damn obvious the entire time since we saw him shrug off multiple things, including being engulfed in flames and being punched into orbit before he even met Iron Fist.
And, of course, Danny was weakened when he first encountered Wolverine having had his sh1t kicked in by a Davos ambush. So, yeah. If anybody wasn't being portrayed well in that real fight, it was Danny. And there was an actual on-panel reason. Not some flimsy crusade of misinformation being needlessly projected as an excuse.
Originally posted by srankmissingninI agree with you. And Wolverine looked better than Iron Fist in a pure H2H sparring match. But Iron Fist looked waaay better than Wolverine in an actual fight... while Danny was weakened. I have no problem thinking the two can co-exist. I also have no problem choosing which one is far more relevant.
Sparing / training matches aren't typically relevant because they usually involve a noticeably more skilled fighter, trying to teach a less skilled fighter something, so what we are left with isn't an accurate portrait of how that character would actually operate. That's why there are spar examples that have Tim Drake beating Lady Shiva, and Black Widow Beating Wolverine ect ect ect. You are right that as a training match this example isn't in and off itself concrete proof that Wolverine > Iron Fist, but I would say that in a case like this (or the Captain America vs Shang-Chi spar, or the Shang-Chi vs Nick Fury spar), it is a little different then most examples because one fighter isn't trying to teach the other something, and the other isn't trying to learn something, but it still isn't necessarily an accurate account of a fight. Still I would say it is more relevant than the standard "one of us is mind-controlled!' hero fights, we usually get.
And it still isn't relevant to Iron Fist beating Sabretooth. Because, y'know, he has, while blind and weakened.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
A real fight. No quotes needed. Wolverine had his age, skill combat experience and powerset as comics show. It just didn't matter. Wolverine was not an essentially different character back then. And yes, I did read his earliest appearances just to see how much truth there is to this powerless, baseline, completely different Wolverine character. There weren't many appearances, so it wasn't hard. Color me surprised that it didnt turn out the way you argued.Back before he met Iron Fist, he was a mutant, he had "powers," he was really strong, really fast, freakishly durable, he had adamantium, he went into berserker rages, embarassed others in training sessions, he was a trained operative for the Canadian government, he said "bub," he was mysterious (in that there's-more-to-him-than-meets-the-eye type of way), and he was capable of going toe-to-toe with the Hulk and Wendigo of course. That sound like Wolverine's character to you?
Sounds like Wolverine's character to me. It only took another several months after his fight with Iron Fist for the mysteriously ill-defined "powers" to be revealed as accelerated healing. Which was pretty damn obvious the entire time since we saw him shrug off multiple things, including being engulfed in flames and being punched into orbit before he even met Iron Fist.
And, of course, Danny was weakened when he first encountered Wolverine having had his sh1t kicked in by a Davos ambush. So, yeah. If anybody wasn't being portrayed well in that real fight, it was Danny. And there was an actual on-panel reason. Not some flimsy crusade of misinformation being needlessly projected as an excuse. I agree with you. And Wolverine looked better than Iron Fist in a pure H2H sparring match. But Iron Fist looked waaay better than Wolverine in an actual fight... while Danny was weakened. I have no problem thinking the two can co-exist. I also have no problem choosing which one is far more relevant.
And it still isn't relevant to Iron Fist beating Sabretooth. Because, y'know, he has, while blind and weakened.
No, Wolverine did not have his "age, skill, combat experience and powerset," during this fight with Iron Fist. At this point in the continuity Wolverine was merely a skilled ex-soldier with an undefined, yet extremely high, level of invulnerability / durability, who was prone to a berserker rage. He was the archetypical "man with no name" so he had a mysterious past that you mentioned... but the reason that it was mysterious at the time was because it was completely blank. That "mysterious past" has subsequently been filled in now with decades of character progress that wasn't present when he fought Danny. Danny didn't beat Wolverine as we know him (he didn't beat Wolverine at all but whatever), he fought a blank slate of a character who's entire back story had yet to be written... and it was all he could do to keep Wolverine off balance, he couldn't even phase him with his attacks.
And it wasn't months before power was finally shown to be a healing factor, it was years. We first found out Wolverine's power was a healing factor in Uncanny X-Men 142, in 1981. In Uncanny 116 he said "I heal fast," but that was merely a tough guy throw away one liner. In retro-spec and looking back with hindsight knowing his powers ended up being a healing you could argue that 116 was the impetus of Claremont's train of thought that eventually lead to Wolverine's healing factor being his primary power, but little else. It was four years after his fight with Iron Fist that we finally found out definitively what made Wolverine a mutant.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Of course that first fight matters less, Wolverine was essentially a different character who just happened to have the same name...
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Wolverithmetics theory-crafting never ceases to amaze me at how easily they're busted.
Back before he met Iron Fist, he was a mutant, he had "powers," he was really strong, really fast, freakishly durable, he had adamantium, he went into berserker rages, embarassed others in training sessions, he was a trained operative for the Canadian government, he said "bub," he was mysterious (in that there's-more-to-him-than-meets-the-eye type of way), and he was capable of going toe-to-toe with the Hulk and Wendigo of course. That sound like Wolverine's character to you?Sounds like Wolverine's character to me. It only took another several months after his fight with Iron Fist for the mysteriously ill-defined "powers" to be revealed as accelerated healing. Which was pretty damn obvious the entire time since we saw him shrug off multiple things, including being engulfed in flames and being punched into orbit before he even met Iron Fist.
And Iron Fist still beats Sabretooth in a real fight. Because, y'know, he has on-panel, while blind and weakened.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0You can pretend that somehow the above description, which I can prove with scans, is "essentially a different character."
Back before he met Iron Fist, he was a mutant, he had "powers," he was really strong, really fast, freakishly durable, he had adamantium, he went into berserker rages, embarassed others in training sessions, he was a trained operative for the Canadian government, he said "bub," he was mysterious (in that there's-more-to-him-than-meets-the-eye type of way), and he was capable of going toe-to-toe with the Hulk and Wendigo of course. That sound like Wolverine's character to you?
look at it like this, En Sabah Nur is not the same person he was in the past as he is today.
you grasp as straws and then point the finger at others of doing the grasping while trying to argue that a none developed character is exactly the same person he is today.
there are reasons that many characters seem different from their original appearance even getting a whole new explanation of their powers or retcon of powers to better suit modern story telling. it happens all the time.
We would have to be insane to try to use golden age superman to explain how the modern superman would behave.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You can pretend that somehow the above description, which I can prove with scans, is "essentially a different character."
No need to pretend anything, just acknowledge that Wolverine with after 35 years of character development, fleshing out his completely undefined back story, powers and and skill set, is not the same character as the blank slate that Iron Fist fought in '77. Any reasonable person without a sad and twisted vendetta against a fictionally character should be able to acknowledge that...
^ And you can pretend that Wolverine was "essentially a different character" when in fact, by on-panel evidence, he was not a blank slate and had all this established before getting embarassed by Iron Fist on-panel:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Oh yeah. Total blank slate. Sounds absolutely nothing like Wolverine. Who are we talking about again? Constrictor? Green Arrow? I have no idea who this is.
Back before he met Iron Fist, he was a mutant, he had "powers," he was really strong, really fast, freakishly durable, he had adamantium, he went into berserker rages, embarassed others in training sessions, he was a trained operative for the Canadian government, he said "bub," he was mysterious (in that there's-more-to-him-than-meets-the-eye type of way), and he was capable of going toe-to-toe with the Hulk and Wendigo of course. That sound like Wolverine's character to you?
Originally posted by King CastleSh1tty strawman. Logan isn't "exactly" the same person he is as he was before Wolverine: Origins. All the crap he's had to deal with, all the revelations, all the sh1t with X-Force. Does that somehow make all his feats and history before that time period disappear? Since they're no longer relevant? A different character? History wasn't completely fleshed out? Take your crap somewhere else.
look at it like this, En Sabah Nur is not the same person he was in the past as he is today.you grasp as straws and then point the finger at others of doing the grasping while trying to argue that a none developed character is exactly the same person he is today.
I didn't set out to prove Wolverine was exactly the same as he is now. I set out to prove that Wolverine was not "essentially a different character." Because ya'll were the ones throwing out careless misinformation about him lacking any powers, or superhuman stats, or any skill whatsoever, etc.
Originally posted by King CastleDon't be retarded. Golden Age Superman couldn't fly and leapt tall buildings in his first appearance. He is essentially not the same character that currently zooms across galaxies and survives planetary explosions. Wolverine went toe-to-toe with Wendigo and Hulk in his first appearance. He is essentially the same character that currently... can go toe-to-toe with Wendigo and Hulk.
there are reasons that many characters seem different from their original appearance even getting a whole new explanation of their powers or retcon of powers to better suit modern story telling. it happens all the time.We would have to be insane to try to use golden age superman to explain how the modern superman would behave.
Don't be p1ssy that ya'll set yourself up for this myth to be busted. It wasn't hard. It's on-panel, it's history. It's far more relevant than a sparring match where they're both holding back.
And Iron Fist still beats Sabretooth. Because he has on-panel, while blinded and weakened.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ And you can pretend that Wolverine was "essentially a different character" when in fact, by on-panel evidence, he was not a blank slate and had all this established before getting embarassed by Iron Fist on-panel: Oh yeah. Total blank slate. Sounds absolutely nothing like Wolverine. Who are we talking about again? Constrictor? Green Arrow? I have no idea who this is. Sh1tty strawman. Logan isn't "exactly" the same person he is as he was before Wolverine: Origins. All the crap he's had to deal with, all the revelations, all the sh1t with X-Force. Does that somehow make all his feats and history before that time period disappear? Since they're no longer relevant? A different character? History wasn't completely fleshed out? Take your crap somewhere else.I didn't set out to prove Wolverine was exactly the same as he is now. I set out to prove that Wolverine was not "essentially a different character." Because ya'll were the ones throwing out careless misinformation about him lacking any powers, or superhuman stats, or any skill whatsoever, etc. Don't be retarded. Golden Age Superman couldn't fly and leapt tall buildings in his first appearance. He is essentially not the same character that currently zooms across galaxies and survives planetary explosions. Wolverine went toe-to-toe with Wendigo and Hulk in his first appearance. He is essentially the same character that currently... can go toe-to-toe with Wendigo and Hulk.
Don't be p1ssy that ya'll set yourself up for this myth to be busted. It wasn't hard. It's on-panel, it's history. It's far more relevant than a sparring match where they're both holding back.
He went toe-to-toe with Hulk and got one shot'ed with a glancing blow after getting smashed into the ground. Does that sound like the same Wolverine to you? He had no back story. Weapon X hadn't been created. Team X hadn't been created. Ogun wasn't created. He wasn't a century + old, WW1/WW2 veteran immortal martial artists who had mastered every known fighting style and was capable of beating the best fighters in the world in h2h. He was merely an ex-solder... but apparently that isn't much of a change. I mean, hell the proposed back story at that time was still that Logan was a mutant Wolverine who just happened to have a humanoid appearance.
^ He got smashed into the ground while roped up in chains by Hulk before that and recovered quickly. The impact destroyed the chains even. Wolverine was ferocious enough to take down Wendigo straight-up. Sound like the same Wolverine?
Your deflection onto fleshed-out backstory is irrelevant. Wolverine was always mysterious with a hazy past. That was the point. Wolverine's utterly fleshed out backstory and history via Origins does not render him a different character than he was before Origins, such that we should ignore all appearances of Wolverine pre-Origins as "essentially a different character."
Even by your own standards, you set yourself up to fail.
Origin is the least important part of Wolverine's back story as far as this topic is concerned, it's everything that happened after Wolverine: Origins that matters. His time in WW1, his time in WW2, his time post WW2 in Team X, his Cold War days, Vietnam, the Weapon X, Department H, and all of his martial arts training. None of that had happened. For all intensive purposes he was a different character (he is also literally a different character because the body of the original Wolverine is still in the temple that houses the Crystal of Ultimate Visions 😎 ), he has a different history, different origin and different powers.
You really should pick your fights man, because you got nothing here, and watching you work so hard just to try and keep your head above water is depressing.
Originally posted by srankmissingninAnd yet, we see that he's been trained in the past leading up to his joining the X-Men. And we also see the depths of his training evinced with his status as a trained operative and routinely embarrassing the other X-Men in training sessions and his effective results in fights. It being explained later on that he had extensive training isn't just consistent, it doesn't just make sense, it's plainly obvious after the fact.
Origin is the least important part of Wolverine's back story as far as this topic is concerned, it's everything that happened after Wolverine: Origins that matters. His time in WW1, his time in WW2, his time post WW2 in Team X, his Cold War days, Vietnam, the Weapon X, Department H, and all of his martial arts training. None of that had happened. For all intensive purposes he was a different character (he is also literally a different character because the body of the original Wolverine is still in the temple that houses the Crystal of Ultimate Visions ), he has a different history, different origin and different powers.
Originally posted by srankmissingninHAHA. PROJECTION, MUCH?! Getting your myth busted isn't cause for you to act like the shoe's on the other foot. Wolverine wasn't powerless, had superhuman stats, was evidently skilled, had his character established down to the "bub."
You really should pick your fights man, because you got nothing here, and watching you work so hard just to try and keep your head above water is depressing.
Next time, try not to manufacture a cockamamie theory that actual on-panel events are retconned into non-existence because your ideal vision of a character's performance wasn't present in a fight against another character. If you haven't noticed, your ideal portrayal of Wolverine's performance in curb-stomping his peers just isn't a reality.
And that's the core of it. Let's cut the pretense. Boiling it down, your argument is that Wolverine was portrayed as a ferocious brawler and his skill wasn't portrayed ideally against Iron Fist. So what? You routinely b1tch and moan about how Wolverine is constantly portrayed as a ferocious brawler and his skill isn't being portrayed ideally to this day. That doesn't mean his portrayals where he's wading through his opponents never happened because "OMG, it's essentially a different character! They, like, totally ignored his decades of martial artzzz!!11" The age of Iron Fist's fight is red herring nonsense and has nothing to do with your objection. It's just arbitrary, irrelevent window dressing to your IDLI, IDH whining.
You didn't like how he was portrayed as being on the losing end, you wish it didn't happen... so you'll act like it didn't happen. It did happen. And your hilarious myths don't change that. Wolverine's essential character was established by then. And if Marvel ever revisits that fight in a flashback, it'll look much the same. Get over it.
What a sh1tty myth to be busted. And Iron Fist still beats Sabretooth.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And yet, we see that he's been trained in the past leading up to his joining the X-Men. And we also see the depths of his training evinced with his status as a trained operative and routinely embarrassing the other X-Men in training sessions and his effective results in fights. It being explained later on that he had extensive training isn't just consistent, it doesn't just make sense, it's plainly obvious after the fact. HAHA. PROJECTION, MUCH?! Getting your myth busted isn't cause for you to act like the shoe's on the other foot. Wolverine wasn't powerless, had superhuman stats, was evidently skilled, had his character established down to the "bub."Next time, try not to manufacture a cockamamie theory that actual on-panel events are retconned into non-existence because your ideal vision of a character's performance wasn't present in a fight against another character. If you haven't noticed, your ideal portrayal of Wolverine's performance in curb-stomping his peers just isn't a reality.
And that's the core of it. Let's cut the pretense. Boiling it down, your argument is that Wolverine was portrayed as a ferocious brawler and his skill wasn't portrayed ideally against Iron Fist. So what? You routinely b1tch and moan about how Wolverine is constantly portrayed as a ferocious brawler and his skill isn't being portrayed ideally to this day. That doesn't mean his portrayals where he's wading through his opponents never happened because "OMG, it's essentially a different character! They, like, totally ignored his decades of martial artzzz!!11" The age of Iron Fist's fight is red herring nonsense and has nothing to do with your objection. It's just arbitrary, irrelevent window dressing to your IDLI, IDH whining.
You didn't like how he was portrayed as being on the losing end, you wish it didn't happen... so you'll act like it didn't happen. It did happen. And your hilarious myths don't change that. Wolverine's essential character was established by then. And if Marvel ever revisits that fight in a flashback, it'll look much the same. Get over it.
What a sh1tty myth to be busted. And Iron Fist still beats Sabretooth.
Wolverine was seemingly a thirty five to forty year old ex-soldier on a team with teenagers. Even if he routinely embarrassed the X-Men at that time in training matches (which he really didn't, most of that stuff happened in back up stories in Classic X-Men, released after Wolverine started to get some character development), he was a grown man with actual combat experience on a team with children. Even if we ignore the fact than an 18 year old Cyclops knocked Wolverine around several times with his leet judo skills, you believe that Wolverine one-upping a bunch of teenagers means what exactly? That he was portrayed with the same level of martial prowess and combat proficiency as he does now? Or anywhere close? Please. Nothing your are crying about is even remotely accurate, stop clutching at straws, and try to maintain a shred of credibility for once. We all know its your mo to shit over Wolverine and create the most flimsy and ridiculous theories, but take a f_cking break man.
I understand you are frustrated because you have nothing to back your asinine believes, but come on man. Try harder, you're embarrassing yourself. Wolverine was essentially a blank slate when he fought Iron Fist, having some soldier training doesn't even begin to cover to combat training Wolverine has been attributed with since that issue. Seriously.
Originally posted by srankmissingninhysterical
create the most flimsy and ridiculous theories, but take a f_cking break man.I understand you are frustrated because you have nothing to back your asinine believes, but come on man. Try harder, you're embarrassing yourself.
Talk about irony. I'm sorry I debunked your myth that Wolverine was "essentially a different character" when Danny beat him up. He wasn't. It was actually surprising myself to see how much was established so early on. But nice try pretending like you can erase events from history that don't involve actual retcons. Your attempt to blacklist anything involving Daniel Way was funny. This attempt to banish anything before... what... 1982... was both pathetic and misinformed.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Wolverine was juzt as skilled cuz he waz better then many the X-MeNZ and i remeber that he did say bub so now you know! Plus he was foughtin the Hulk11!!!1 Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuur dur
You haven't debunked anything buddy. You've rambled on incoherently - as you are want to do - pretending like you've made a valid point. You haven't. Wolverine was a different character when he fought Danny then he is now, it's just a fact. You haven't raised any valid concerns or debunked anything.