Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
True enough.What is your definition of a physical exchange? If you mean standing there and trading blows, Nova would hold his ground from a few minutes to a few moments depending on how much strength Thor utilizes.
I’m pretty sure Rider made it clear with his own words that he did not take the blow in stride. True enough, but we all know it's the tier changing upgrades that matter the most. Rider is higher on the pecking order than he was back then, but he inhabits roughly the same tier as Iron Man when it comes to facing the big boys. He’ll make a name for himself, but he’s not in danger of winning most of the time.
In what particular scenario? Fighting Nova in space without Mjolnir or fighting Nova in close combat? I’m hoping it’s the former.
If we were to strip Thor of flight and other powers, making him only a brick, it’s true, Rider could simply stay out of range and give it all his got until he or Thor goes down.
Lol? Not really. I can easily make an argument for the Odinson. Thor mostly uses Mjolnir for a club, and even limiting him to those showings, has illustrated more than enough to justify beating Nova. Without Mjolnir, Thor has exhibited vast energy projection, possesses his weather based abilities which on their own are immense and so on. It simply a matter of whether or not he’d utilize them. Even if he doesn’t, Nova would still be hard pressed to beat Thor straight up.
I can use various feats like those above for my argument. I'm simply hesitant due to the rarity of Thor being separated from Mjolnir, and Thor exhibiting abilities far more than just that of a brick when he is. It's one thing to give Nova the slight edge, but to say he'd stomp? That's utter bullshit. Mjolnir or no Mjolnir, Thor's still ridiculously powerful, has vast physical stats and is pretty versatile. He can't create a Stargate or Anti-Matter, but let's be honest, that shit rarely comes into play in a direct battle anyway. The Odinson's weather control alone would give Nova one hell of a challenge to overcome and even that's debatable.
And no, this isn't me issuing a challenge for a feat war.
Would you have access to a scan of that?
I got to "roughly the same tier with Ironman" and then suddenly my mind became too boggled to read any further.
It's all in his respect thread. I posted the different ways that the Nova corps "Syphon" powers work.
Why do you so strongly disagree with that comment? It's a pretty accurate assessment based on how the two have done against High Heralds. Nova's not going to do noticeably better against the big boys than Iron Man has in the past. Can he beat them? Possibly, but they'll be blood and tears. I'll freely acknowledge that Nova Prime is more powerful and has noticeably higher space cheese feats if that's what you care about. You can just agree to disagree with that part, and continue on with the rest of the debate if it bothers you so much.
Okay, I'll take a look.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusOh, ok I see what you were saying. But when pitted against the other HH, Rider only has fought what, 2 of them? Thor like the 4th day he had his powers and Norrin under dubious circumstances. I guess you could say Glads as well, but again that's pre annihilation.
Why do you so strongly disagree with that comment? It's a pretty accurate assessment based on how the two have done against High Heralds. Nova's not going to do noticeably better against the big boys than Iron Man has in the past. Can he beat them? Possibly, but they'll be blood and tears. I'll freely acknowledge that Nova Prime is more powerful and has noticeably higher space cheese feats if that's what you care about. You can just agree to disagree with that part, and continue on with the rest of the debate if it bothers you so much.Okay, I'll take a look.
So basically you have the Norrin fight. That's legit, but it should be noted that IMO, Rider had the "physical" advantage in that tussle, although Norrin was clearly portrayed as superior with the writer wank and all. I've raised that point in the past, but it always seems to come down to arguing over grunts, groans and facial expressions. What's indisputable though is the fact that Rider wasn't firing on all cylinders. The WM had been secretly siphoning off Nova force from Rich to empower other centurions. That's confirmed on panel here;
But fine, even allowing for a legit Surfer defeat, Norrin is a trinity character so a loss there is no biggie in my book. That's one. His one other legit loss came from Lord Mar-vell, a trans level character. I guess you could include the bug, but it/he was clearly amped during Annihilation. Rider ultimately prevailed. So with that considered, if we had to go solely on head to heads with the biggest of the big dogs, would it be fair to say Nova gets an incomplete?
Here you go bro. I had to dig a bit through the respect forum. Not a whole lot going happening on the Nova front these days lol!
killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=400279&pagenumber=5#post13312417
Originally posted by dmills
But when pitted against the other HH, Rider only has fought what, 2 of them? Thor like the 4th day he had his powers and Norrin under dubious circumstances. I guess you could say Glads as well, but again that's pre annihilation. So basically you have the Norrin fight. That's legit, but it should be noted that Imo, Rider had the "physical" advantage in that tussle, although Norrin was clearly portrayed as superior with the writer wank and all. I've raised that point in the past, but it always seems to come down to arguing over grunts, groans and facial expressions. What's indisputable though is the fact that Rider wasn't firing on all cylinders. The WM had been secretly siphoning off Nova force from Rich to empower other centurions. That's confirmed on panel here;
I'd say 4 -Surfer, Thor, Gladiator, Annihilus- of them. 5 if he was one of the New Warrior's present against Terrax. I can't remember.
Have you noticed that Rider performance against High Heralds is more or less the same? That's what I use to judge a character. It doesn't matter how many upgrades a character receives, unless it actually bumps him up in comparison to how he has performed in the past against similarly powerful opponents. Just thought I'd share my reasoning.
Why? Because one of his arms were more outstretched? Be serious bro, you don't really think that was the intention do you? You'd be insulting your own intelligence imho.
Originally posted by dmills
Oh, good find. Never noticed the pre Galactus tidbit and I assumed it was post. I personally doubt the power of five Centurions would make any difference in a battle against Surfer or Thor, but it helps him save face.
Originally posted by dmills
But fine, even allowing for a legit Surfer defeat, Norrin is a trinity character so a loss there is no biggie in my book. That's one. His one other legit loss came from Lord Mar-vell, a trans level character. I guess you could include the bug, but it/he was clearly amped during Annihilation. Rider ultimately prevailed. So with that considered, if we had to go solely on head to heads, would it be fair to say Nova gets an incomplete?
Lol, I don't understand, do you think me placing him in the same tier as Iron Man was meant as an insult? There's no need to list Richard's resume to me. I'm not underestimating the character. Iron Man has held his own against Sentry, fought Surfer to a double knock out, defeated the Hulk, stalemated Hercules, gained the advantage over Namor etc. It's an accurate assessment that Richards would not fare noticeably better against such opponents.
It should be noted, the amp that the Quantum Bands gave Annihilus was lost when Richards killed him. And his own personal reserves were drained from being at ground zero of the "Herald My Rage!" blast I believe.
Originally posted by dmills
Here you go bro. I had to dig a bit through the respect forum. Not a whole lot going happening on the Nova front these days lol!killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=400279&pagenumber=5#post13312417
Based on a quick survey, I'm guessing Nova can absorb/redirect some energy based attacks from Thor -if he decides to use them- unless it's a quantity outside of his capabilities.
I wouldn't have entertained direct energy drainage against Thor without some magic in the past, but post Rulk, I guess it's possible. Of course, that Red idiot must have done in a way for Thor too not notice and magically, Thor performed better in the second round. The consistency of Loeb.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusWho are the others?
I'd say 4 -Surfer, Thor, Gladiator, Annihilus- of them. 5 if he was one of the New Warrior's present against Terrax. I can't remember.Have you noticed that Rider performance against High Heralds is more or less the same? That's what I use to judge a character. It doesn't matter how many upgrades a character receives, unless it actually bumps him up in comparison to how he has performed in the past against similarly powerful opponents. Just thought I'd share my reasoning.
Why? Because one of his arms were more outstretched? Be serious bro, you don't really think that was the intention do you? You'd be insulting your own intelligence imho.
Oh, good find. Never noticed the pre Galactus tidbit and I assumed it was post. I personally doubt the power of five Centurions would make any difference in a battle against Surfer or Thor, but it helps him save face.
Lol, I don't understand, do you think me placing him in the same tier as Iron Man was meant as an insult? There's no need to list Richard's resume to me. I'm not underestimating the character. Iron Man has held his own against Sentry, fought Surfer to a double knock out, defeated the Hulk, stalemated Hercules, gained the advantage over Namor etc. It's an accurate assessment that Richards would not fare noticeably better against such opponents.
It should be noted, the amp that the Quantum Bands gave Annihilus was lost when Richards killed him. And his own personal reserves were drained from being at ground zero of the "Herald My Rage!" blast I believe.
Lulz. You're a smart cat. Of course its phucking stupid, but that's the same type of logic being applied to say it was a stomp of epic proportions in favor of Norrin.
Ah, the eternal struggle between comic book feats/showings, character portrayal and powerset. In a vacuum you'd be right. But for example, if I were to make a thread "Nova Prime vs Iron Man", most people would take one look at it and go "wtf? Rider stomps". That's because portrayal and power-set wise, he should! But in the comics, you're essentially right. I'd even go so far as to actually say that Stark has far better showings vs the big dogs. But that's why we can't exclusively with one or the other. Shyte's a case by case thing big dog.
Originally posted by dmills
Who are the others?
The other New Warrior's? I remember Namorita, Speedball, Firestar, Marvel Boy, and Night Thrasher. Not sure if anyone else was present. They faced him on two different occasions, the second including the intervention of the Fantastic Four. Personally, I don't recall Nova doing anything noteworthy, so he probably got slapped around.
Originally posted by dmills
Lulz. You're a smart cat. Of course its phucking stupid, but that's the same type of logic being applied to say it was a stomp of epic proportions in favor of Norrin.
It wasn't a stomp. Not my definition of it. That would be Iron Man vs. Thor when the Odinson gave him a proverbial two piece and a biscuit.
But the writers would have had to include charts, diagrams and shit to make it any clearer than they already did that Norrin is noticeably more powerful than Nova Prime.
Originally posted by dmills
Ah, the eternal struggle between comic book feats/showings, character portrayal and powerset. In a vacuum you'd be right. But for example, if I were to make a thread "Nova Prime vs Iron Man", most people would take one look at it and go "wtf? Rider stomps". That's because portrayal and power-set wise, he should! But in the comics, you're essentially right. I'd even go so far as to actually say that Stark has far better showings vs the big dogs. But that's why we can't exclusively with one or the other. Shyte's a case by case thing big dog.
I consider how characters are consistently portrayed in the comic books to be very important and should be one of the main things to take into account before deciding who wins a battle.
Well, I personally wouldn't say Nova Prime would stomp Iron Man -I'd be fine with giving him the edge- and I highly doubt DnA would write it that way as well. For what it's worth, I didn't get that vibe from the Civil War tie-in they wrote.
Iron Man is considered to be a power house and originally illustrated the traits that made Nova formidable -in my book- despite lacking the power edge. Quick thinking, on the spot adaption etc.
Stark does have more appearances, so it balances it out.
Sorry for the late reply. Forgot about this thread.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The other New Warrior's? I remember Namorita, Speedball, Firestar, Marvel Boy, and Night Thrasher. Not sure if anyone else was present. They faced him on two different occasions, the second including the intervention of the Fantastic Four. Personally, I don't recall Nova doing anything noteworthy, so he probably got slapped around.It wasn't a stomp. Not my definition of it. That would be Iron Man vs. Thor when the Odinson gave him a proverbial two piece and a biscuit.
But the writers would have had to include charts, diagrams and shit to make it any clearer than they already did that Norrin is noticeably more powerful than Nova Prime.
I consider how characters are consistently portrayed in the comic books to be very important and should be one of the main things to take into account before deciding who wins a battle.
Well, I personally wouldn't say Nova Prime would stomp Iron Man -I'd be fine with giving him the edge- and I highly doubt DnA would write it that way as well. For what it's worth, I didn't get that vibe from the Civil War tie-in they wrote.
Iron Man is considered to be a power house and originally illustrated the traits that made Nova formidable -in my book- despite lacking the power edge. Quick thinking, on the spot adaption etc.
Stark does have more appearances, so it balances it out.
Sorry for the late reply. Forgot about this thread.
That's Odinforce Thor that "stomped" Tony.
I'm not sure why you got that vibe in the civil-war tie in, but DnA sure as hell made it clear that Nova was on a level that just a lone Tony Stark has no chance in hell going toe to toe with.
http://s1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/?action=view¤t=Novav401-page23.jpg
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/More%20Nova/Novav402-page10.jpg
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/More%20Nova/Novav402-page11.jpg
Maybe some of us are selling a Thor w/o Mjolnir a little short... But u are doing the same ten fold...
I'm almost tempted to make NP Vs IM thread... But what's the point? I'm sorry, Tony would get buttraped...
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
That's Odinforce Thor that "stomped" Tony.
with.
Either that was before JMS intended Thor to have the Odin Force or a Thor that did not use any of the Odin Force against Stark. Pick one of the two. Either way, it's fine by me. Why the quotations?
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I'm not sure why you got that vibe in the civil-war tie in, but DnA sure as hell made it clear that Nova was on a level that just a lone Tony Stark has no chance in hell going toe to toehttp://s1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/?action=view¤t=Novav401-page23.jpg
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/More%20Nova/Novav402-page10.jpg
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/More%20Nova/Novav402-page11.jpg
I'll admit, Nova did get more praise than I had remembered. Maybe I sold Nova short due to memory, but you are sure as hell doing the same to Stark. You're interpretation is something I definitely disagree with.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Maybe some of us are selling a Thor w/o Mjolnir a little short... But u are doing the same ten fold...
I'm almost tempted to make NP Vs IM thread... But what's the point? I'm sorry, Tony would get buttraped...
I'm treating Nova with respect. He inhabits the tier of entities that can make a name for themselves, but won't be beating the higher end heralds most of the time. I think that's fair based on what I've seen of Nova.
Depends on the Iron Man incarnation but if you think Nova would currently stomp Iron Man, you're off base imho.
I honestly don't understand why you think Stark giving Nova a fight is somehow an insult. He's not a first tier power house like Thor or Surfer but then again, he doesn't need to be.
He's given beings as tough or tougher than Nova a run for their money.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Either that was before JMS intended Thor to have the Odin Force or a Thor that did not use any of the Odin Force against Stark. Pick one of the two. Either way, it's fine by me. Why the quotations?I'll admit, Nova did get more praise than I had remembered. Maybe I sold Nova short due to memory, but you are sure as hell doing the same to Stark. You're interpretation is something I definitely disagree with.
I'm treating Nova with respect. He inhabits the tier of entities that can make a name for themselves, but won't be beating the higher end heralds most of the time. I think that's fair based on what I've seen of Nova.
Depends on the Iron Man incarnation but if you think Nova would currently stomp Iron Man, you're off base imho.
I honestly don't understand why you think Stark giving Nova a fight is somehow an insult. He's not a first tier power house like Thor or Surfer but then again, he doesn't need to be.
He's given beings as tough or tougher than Nova a run for their money.
You might as well continue this in the IM Vs NP thread that Carver just created... We've derailed this one a little much already...
in reference to Odinforce Thor, Tony said "you've been working out" as if Blondie got some kind of upgrade.. at least in my view that's what the writer tried to convey.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'd say 4 -Surfer, Thor, Gladiator, Annihilus- of them. 5 if he was one of the New Warrior's present against Terrax. I can't remember.Have you noticed that Rider performance against High Heralds is more or less the same? That's what I use to judge a character. It doesn't matter how many upgrades a character receives, unless it actually bumps him up in comparison to how he has performed in the past against similarly powerful opponents. Just thought I'd share my reasoning.
Why? Because one of his arms were more outstretched? Be serious bro, you don't really think that was the intention do you? You'd be insulting your own intelligence imho.
Oh, good find. Never noticed the pre Galactus tidbit and I assumed it was post. I personally doubt the power of five Centurions would make any difference in a battle against Surfer or Thor, but it helps him save face.
Lol, I don't understand, do you think me placing him in the same tier as Iron Man was meant as an insult? There's no need to list Richard's resume to me. I'm not underestimating the character. Iron Man has held his own against Sentry, fought Surfer to a double knock out, defeated the Hulk, stalemated Hercules, gained the advantage over Namor etc. It's an accurate assessment that Richards would not fare noticeably better against such opponents.
It should be noted, the amp that the Quantum Bands gave Annihilus was lost when Richards killed him. And his own personal reserves were drained from being at ground zero of the "Herald My Rage!" blast I believe.
Based on a quick survey, I'm guessing Nova can absorb/redirect some energy based attacks from Thor -if he decides to use them- unless it's a quantity outside of his capabilities.
I wouldn't have entertained direct energy drainage against Thor without some magic in the past, but post Rulk, I guess it's possible. Of course, that Red idiot must have done in a way for Thor too not notice and magically, Thor performed better in the second round. The consistency of Loeb.
I had missed a couple of points from this post from earlier.
Picking up from his performance vs HH. Again, currently it's just Norrin. And its under a writing tandem that is known for depicting powerful characters conservatively. Current Nova in the hands of other writers is seemingly portrayed as more powerful, i.e. holding back his blows vs current Hulk, basically ignoring a punch from Korg before deciding to "end it". In Secret Avengers he's portrayed as pretty uber, as was Cap when he came into possession of Nova's powers. So a writers particular style plays a large role in how a given character is portrayed.
In terms of overall power, Consider this;
this is the same power source that the skrulls, Kree and Shi-ar all wanted to possess or control for one reason or another.
The Luphinoids wanted it to use as a weapon against Galactus.
Empowered The Sphinx
Supernova
Hell, Rider himself regularly blasts open holes in time/space to get from a to b. It sounds like hyperbole yes, but in reality his stargates are just that, massive concentrations of gravity that tear open holes in space/time. The backlash of which are apparently powerful enough to wreck planets.
Create gravity buffers between planets to prevent mass destruction from the close proximity;
(A proxy feat. Technically the WM made the buffer, but it draws its power from the Nova Force that is inside of Rider. This is merely an example of how much power he wields at his disposal)
I'll stop here for now, but you get the point. Portrayal alone doesn't always give a full depiction. Neither does power set or feats in and of themselves. All of it must be considered.
