Originally posted by iceman24567
Nah this team would take turns waxing Surfers face with their fists he isn't "soundly" beating any top tier much less a team full of them
Originally posted by Brockalizer
If Grandpa Marvel can do it without any powers, than Surfer could easily do it with them. It's all about creating the right illusion, which is also within his sphere of abilities.
Unfortunately, due to the Wisdom of Solomon/Zehuti, illusions are really not likely to make them blurt "Shazam!". It takes a telepath of the highest order for that happen and even then, it's not always successful. And when the Silver Surfer can replicate either the Power of Shazam or high end magic such as from the Spectre, he can think about forcibly depowering Cap and Adam.
Mundane lightning doesn't do the trick to them - that's Captain Marvel, Jr and occasionally Mary Marvel who gets depowered by regular lightning - and nothing Surfer has done even suggests he can force either of them back into their mortal form by somehow overcoming the Power of Shazam under his own power.
Originally posted by Allankles
Oh the typical defense. Every time someone says Thanos will get speed blitzed we get these weak counter argument. Fallen One didn't speed blitz, he rushed at Thanos in a straight line. If you can't even force your opponent to move, beyond raising his hands, that's not a speedblitz. There's also the fact that there's no way to gauge how fast Fallen One was moving as the art didn't really make his speed look impressive, nor was there any narration on the speed level.Reacting to Maker's blast doesn't demonstrate reflexes capable of reacting to a Superman level speedblitz, let alone reacting to at least 3 possible speedblitzes from different directions.
I've seen magicians like Zatanna, Fate and the like put up defenses against short range energy blasts, and we all know they don't have speedblitz reflexes. Hell I've seen the guys from the Flash rogues (people like Captain Cold) put up a defense against a predictable straight line bull rush from a speedster, doesn't make them capable of reacting to a bone a fide speedblitz.
The SS incident involved his chair. He doesn't have it here.
Have you ever actually seen a Superman level blitz?
He can dodge an energy blast from Thanos (especially after he gauges how powerful he is, he won't want to take too many blasts from him) then move so fast that he'd be standing behind Thanos in the blink of an eye. His speed is such that he could toy with Thanos.
Don't think I didn't notice you not even referencing the part of my post that talked about blasting power. You claimed Thanos didn't have the power to put down Top Tiers with blasts quiickly. After multiple times were referenced showing his blasting power... I can see you conceded this point, and you now must see he does have that kinda power.
In Re: Reflexes The fact is that Thanos has shown the ability to react to fast attacks coming at him, and that is all that needs to be shown. You said Thanos did that with his chair... he doesn't need his chair to teleport at all, he just prefers using Tech. So, he could very easily just continue to teleport.... omni blast (supes or anybody isn't dodging a blast radiating from all around his body)... teleport.. omni blast and repeat. If someone tries to bull-rush.. as you've conceded Thanos can and will react to that. If someone tries to get up close and personal... Thanos will put them down with punches. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it will be ease.. but this notion that the team just puts Thanos down with ease is laughable.
Did you just say... Thanos weighs less than a ton.. superman has pushed planets LOL. Are you really brining that space cheese into the argument LOL. I see times must be really desperate. What exactly would, if he even could, pushing or throwing Thanos away do? Give him more space to operate which is to the team disadvantage. How can you bfr somebody that can teleport? Futhermore, pushing planets hasn't seem to be able to do superman ANY good when he couldn't BFR people he was fighting directly and could've used such a useful technique. Wanna know why? Because space cheese and vs. fights are very different situations and are viewed as such by their respective companies.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Don't think I didn't notice you not even referencing the part of my post that talked about blasting power. You claimed Thanos didn't have the power to put down Top Tiers with blasts quiickly. After multiple times were referenced showing his blasting power... I can see you conceded this point, and you now must see he does have that kinda power.In Re: Reflexes The fact is that Thanos has shown the ability to react to fast attacks coming at him, and that is all that needs to be shown. You said Thanos did that with his chair... he doesn't need his chair to teleport at all, he just prefers using Tech. So, he could very easily just continue to teleport.... omni blast (supes or anybody isn't dodging a blast radiating from all around his body)... teleport.. omni blast and repeat. If someone tries to bull-rush.. as you've conceded Thanos can and will react to that. If someone tries to get up close and personal... Thanos will put them down with punches. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it will be ease.. but this notion that the team just puts Thanos down with ease is laughable.
Did you just say... Thanos weighs less than a ton.. superman has pushed planets LOL. Are you really brining that space cheese into the argument LOL. I see times must be really desperate. What exactly would, if he even could, pushing or throwing Thanos away do? Give him more space to operate which is to the team disadvantage. How can you bfr somebody that can teleport? Futhermore, pushing planets hasn't seem to be able to do superman ANY good when he couldn't BFR people he was fighting directly and could've used such a useful technique. Wanna know why? Because space cheese and vs. fights are very different situations and are viewed as such by their respective companies.
Who was talking about BFR? I was talking about rocking his world with multiple punches, more punches than his Skrull-looking mug has ever been hit with before. I brought up his strength just to put this idea of Thanos being unmoved into perspective.
And pushing/pulling planets out of orbit the way Supes did it isn't exactly space cheese. It's not like he straight out physically pulled the planet, he had some kind of mystical or energy harness that maintained the integrity of the whole planet, allowing him to freely apply the necessary force to accomplish the task. If he'd pulled a Lobo-esque physical manipulation, yeah it would be space cheese, like breaking a planet with punches.
I didn't address the points you brought up about his energy output because they're not conclusive. He used his fists to beat SS and they were about 6 punches. I don't see h2h being the way to go for Thanos, which is why I didn't mention.
"Having Thor under his mercy" again isn't something I can disagree with or contend with without seeing the context. Basically you didn't even give me issue no.s or anything so that I can assess it for myself. So you have me at a disadvantage.
EDIT: Also the other stuff like Warlock (isn't on the same durability level as these guys). The Galactus suprise attack was just a concussive force against an unprepared Galactus. If you honestly think that blast would have dropped (as in KO'd or significantly hurt) a top tier on the level of these guys I don't what to tell you, except that you're putting too much emphasis on labels like "herald", "trans" and the like.
Orion for instance isn't a "herald" in his cosmic role, or place in the cosmic hierachy of his respective pantheon. We only put him there because of how he fares against other beings and how he compares to other characters given that label "herald". Stricly speaking the comics have addressed this issue as in New Gods V2. where Orion was differentiated from other superheroes and meta humans by showing him capable of breaking free of his typical corporeal form. Check out New Gods v2.by Evanier and Starlin.
Even Superman isn't considered a "herald" in the cosmic hierachy of DC, certainly not in the way we interpret that label here. He can't warp reality or devolve an organism but there's plenty of guys who can't do that that are considered skyfathers. The point I'm making is that you have to look at what they can accomplish (especially physically), not just how they're categorized - for convenience- on the forum.
Originally posted by Allankles
Who was talking about BFR? I was talking about rocking his world with multiple punches, more punches than his Skrull-looking mug has ever been hit with before. I brought up his strength just to put this idea of Thanos being unmoved into perspective.And pushing/pulling planets out of orbit the way Supes did it isn't exactly space cheese. It's not like he straight out physically pulled the planet, he had some kind of mystical or energy harness that maintained the integrity of the whole planet, allowing him to freely apply the necessary force to accomplish the task. If he'd pulled a Lobo-esque physical manipulation, yeah it would be space cheese, like breaking a planet with punches.
I didn't address the points you brought up about his energy output because they're not conclusive. He used his fists to beat SS and they were about 6 punches. I don't see h2h being the way to go for Thanos, which is why I didn't mention.
"Having Thor under his mercy" again isn't something I can disagree with or contend with without seeing the context. Basically you didn't even give me issue no.s or anything so that I can assess it for myself. So you have me at a disadvantage.
EDIT: Also the other stuff like Warlock (isn't on the same durability level as these guys). The Galactus suprise attack was just a concussive force against an unprepared Galactus. If you honestly think that blast would have dropped (as in KO'd or significantly hurt) a top tier on the level of these guys I don't what to tell you, except that you're putting too much emphasis on labels like "herald", "trans" and the like.
Orion for instance isn't a "herald" in his cosmic role, or place in the cosmic hierachy of his respective pantheon. We only put him there because of how he fares against other beings and how he compares to other characters given that label "herald". Stricly speaking the comics have addressed this issue as in New Gods V2. where Orion was differentiated from other superheroes and meta humans by showing him capable of breaking free of his typical corporeal form. Check out New Gods v2.by Evanier and Starlin.
Let me ask you a very basic question Allan.... Do you feel like blasts in comics are meant to be fast moving attacks? I mean we know what the properites of blasts are and why we are able to view them... they should in theory be ftl. However, when totally viewing them that way.. we run into problems of some writers might not mean for them to be that fast or them not being stating to go that fast. However, you would agree, that in general they should be considered pretty fast moving attacks right?
Now, if thanos can react AFTER surfer has already shot his blast and teleport out of the way in time... doesn't that imply he has pretty good reaction speed. Why would a rush from superman be ANY faster than a blast from surfer? The answer is it would be. Shoot superman has never even been shown to go ftl. Regardless, the point is.. how do you figure superman can and would be significatly faster than a blast from surfer. How about a point blank blast from maker standing a foot away which is much closer than where superman and the team woudl start. Thor hammer throws have been stated on panel to be faster than light... now I'm not saying it always is.. but we must assume he can throw his hammer pretty fast.. Thanos has raised his hand AFTER it was thrown fast enough to stop it mid flight. The point is, do you concede these attacks in general should be considered pretty fast correct?
Furthermore, you keep on saying you didnt see the fast swiggly lines during the fallen one rush to indicate great speed. Since when is that the prerequisite for needing to be a fast attack anyways? Problem is, we DID see lines behind the fallen one when he rushed that has and usually always indicates fast moving speed. Furthermore, if you had read the comic in question you would've seen that this WAS HIS MOVE. He was stated to be translight.. which of course he is behing a herald of Galacuts. HIS MOVE was bullrushing really fast and destroying stuff.. he did so to Thanos ship and a planet. That is his move to fly really fast into things. Yet you wanna go... well I can't tell if he was moving really fast when he did that to Thanos... wtf. Come on Allan.
The blasting feats of Thanos have been referenced countless times.. you know them to be true. The weakest version of Thanos one shot thing.. and then promptly two shot thor with ease. There is zero context missing. That is just how powerful Thanos is, and that is the weakest verison of Thanos. Warlock doesn't have the durability of other top tiers... WHAT are you basing this on? He certainly does have good durability, but that isn't even the point, since you said he can't do that to top tiers which Warlock certainly is. Plus he had the soul gem which makes a huge difference and he was one shot KILLED. I love how you say he caught Galactus by surpirse with that attack.. lol.. Galactus was LOOKING RIGHT AT HIM. Before he attacked that said.. okay have it your way... and blasted him. Don't give me this crap about him being taken by surprise. We've never seen Galactus sent flying like that, and thus, it should be taken as a pretty strong blast. You forgot about my reference to the Quasar incident where multiple heralds couldn't break the construct.. including Thor tossing his hammer at it, hulk, drax etc etc smashing on it. Thanos smiles and one shots it. Lets not forget Thanos pretty much matching an abstracts blasting power in the in-betweener. Point is, Thanos has certainly demonstrated the blasting power to put down top tiers with relative ease.
Originally posted by Allankles
Even Superman isn't considered a "herald" in the cosmic hierachy of DC, certainly not in the way we interpret that label here. He can't warp reality or devolve an organism but there's plenty of guys who can't do that that are considered skyfathers. The point I'm making is that you have to look at what they can accomplish (especially physically), not just how they're categorized - for convenience- on the forum.
I totally agree.. and thus you HAVE to agree that Thanos is ALWAYS portrayed as being above high heralds and in another league right? Since we are talking about portrayals here... isn't Thanos considered to be well above heralds and a team wrecker?
Originally posted by AllanklesThe reason certain characters are placed into categories is based off of how they are portrayed in the comics. Superman has been portrayed as an equal to Orion, Captain Marvel, more or less Black Adam, etc. If you want to argue over a slight edge in any event it doesn't change the fact these guys are all in the same level of power basically they can ko each other/about as strong as each other, etc.
Even Superman isn't considered a "herald" in the cosmic hierachy of DC, certainly not in the way we interpret that label here. He can't warp reality or devolve an organism but there's plenty of guys who can't do that that are considered skyfathers. The point I'm making is that you have to look at what they can accomplish (especially physically), not just how they're categorized - for convenience- on the forum.
Now when you get to Thanos these guys have never beaten him, ko'd him at his optimum power levels. He's a big time foe that treats guys on this level as minor irritants and even when Thor had the power gem and was himself a team wrecker Thanos took him on just the same and still contained him despite an entire team which had help from the likes of Strange fall short.
Superman pulling a planet out of orbit has no bearing whatsoever on how he would do in a fight. It's simple physics, with a harness and the proper leverage he was able to accomplish his feat. I've seen Marius Pudzianowski as well as several others pull a 747 applying the same technique. I've also seen Marius get his ass handed to him by a man not nearly as strong. Strength and fighting ability are not mutually inclusive.
Originally posted by BrockalizerBingo.
Superman pulling a planet out of orbit has no bearing whatsoever on how he would do in a fight. It's simple physics, with a harness and the proper leverage he was able to accomplish his feat. I've seen Marius Pudzianowski as well as several others pull a 747 applying the same technique. I've also seen Marius get his ass handed to him by a man not nearly as strong. Strength and fighting ability are not mutually inclusive.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Except that Superman with that harness was fighting against a villain who was pushing against him the entire time. So it's not the same thing.It's still a strength feat, especially when you take in to account gravitational forces...
Originally posted by Brockalizer
You're missing the point. What I'm saying is that strength feats have no bearing on fighting ability. If it did Batman wouldn't have been able to beat Bane. It was superior fighting skills, not strength that determined the winner. It's the same with Wolverine and Sabertooth. Sabertooth is physically stronger but Wolverine is the superior fighter.
I never said they did. My comments were about strength alone. Why bring it up, though? It's common sense.