Thor vs The XMEN

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm going to disagree here. I have always viewed Ulik as 100 tons max (in the classic days) or low class 100 in later appearances. Some writer's just downplayed Thor to his level (or they just viewed Thor as in the 100-1000 ton range). Trust me, writer's didn't know how much force certain feats required. In their minds Ulik was about class 90 and Thor was somewhat above 100 tons. If you don't accept this logic then that means you view Colossus as almost in Gladiator's strength level since he put up a decent fight with him. And if that is the case, Colossus at best puts up a hell of a fight against Thor.

With that said, x23 is probably the most dangerous in my book. She can definitely do some damage to him, especially if she go for the eyes or try a fastball special with Colossus.

Why, I'm correct? So this argument revolves around Ulik rated at 90 tons? Handbooks are worthless when it comes to accurate power levels. I highly doubt you know enough about Ulik to make any accurate assessment. Hell, I'd be shocked if you've even read more than one battle involving the troll.

Flawed analogy. Ulik has had a dozen or so battles with Thor. We can attempt to make an accurate assessment of where he stands. On a good day, you'd need someone in or close to the Thor/Superman class to take him down in a slugfest. At least if he has the pounders. Besides, Claremont wrote a lower end Gladiator. Under his pen, Corsair was able to knock Gladiator out with a blast from his gun and I'm pretty sure he wrote the scene where Gambit knocks him out.

why ulik is stated to be a ninety tonner is beyond me

Handbooks are ridiculous. They're nice for bios and character history as well as important issues/first appearances, but in terms of powers and abilities and the scope of them, they're usually garbage. Even Thor's entry doesn't mention half of the crap he or Mjolnir can do.

Occasionally they are good sources if you want to prove a character has a specific ability but you don't have a scan of them actually using it, since a handbook won't ever say they can do something that they can't actually do (at least, I've never seen that happen)

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Even Thor's entry doesn't mention half of the crap he or Mjolnir can do.

Not for anything, but that's not the Handbook's fault. That hammer is a plot device, able to come up with anything needed at the particular moment on the fly. Think Reed Richards but in hammer form 😄

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Occasionally they are good sources if you want to prove a character has a specific ability but you don't have a scan of them actually using it, since a handbook won't ever say they can do something that they can't actually do (at least, I've never seen that happen)

Gladiator running at light speed.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Why, I'm correct? So this argument revolves around Ulik rated at 90 tons? Handbooks are worthless when it comes to accurate power levels. I highly doubt you know enough about Ulik to make any accurate assessment. Hell, I'd be shocked if you've even read more than one battle involving the troll.

Flawed analogy. Ulik has had a dozen or so battles with Thor. We can attempt to make an accurate assessment of where he stands. On a good day, you'd need someone in or close to the Thor/Superman class to take him down in a slugfest. At least if he has the pounders. Besides, Claremont wrote a lower end Gladiator. Under his pen, Corsair was able to knock Gladiator out with a blast from his gun and I'm pretty sure he wrote the scene where Gambit knocks him out.

Official Handbooks are ultimate truth UNLESS there exists sufficient comic evidence to overthrow it.

Ulik has no high class 100 feats. I can see if he grappled and either stalemated or overpowered a known class 100 being. I can see if he has some lifting, pulling, throwing, or breaking feats that put him there. I can see if he has some hitting feats where he injures (through the showing of blood) someone of class 100.

Characters are often written down to other characters to make a story. Superman could beat so many people easily yet the writer down played him so that we can have some suspense.

Originally posted by h1a8
Characters are often written down to other characters to make a story. Superman could beat so many people easily yet the writer down played him so that we can have some suspense.

👆

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Moondragon is able to read Thors secret in his mind and she then mind wipes all the Avengers present in these scans.

Moondragon is able to prevent every Avenger in the room from looking at her, she then freezes them all. His thoughts are interconnected to his suit, so he commands it to carry himself out of her range apparently. Anyway he doesn't jam her psi-powers he makes it difficult to deploy them. She's getting static on every channel. Can be overcome with a little concentration. The Avengers are free and Tony tells them to not give her time to concentrate. She can still deploy her TK though.

Bedlam ensanring Thor, Iron Man and Spider-Man. Xavier counters Bedlam long enough to break his hold on them.

Also, Toad used the Strangers machine to cast illusions that fooled Thor.

He's resistant...depending on the writer.

His mental resistance is really up in the air.

nothing against the other scans, but the moondragon ones--pretty sure she was amped during that period by the dragon of the moon. could be wrong, but i thought that was the case....

Not sure personally.

Originally posted by h1a8
Official Handbooks are ultimate truth UNLESS there exists sufficient comic evidence to overthrow it.

Ulik has no high class 100 feats. I can see if he grappled and either stalemated or overpowered a known class 100 being. I can see if he has some lifting, pulling, throwing, or breaking feats that put him there. I can see if he has some hitting feats where he injures (through the showing of blood) someone of class 100.

Characters are often written down to other characters to make a story. Superman could beat so many people easily yet the writer down played him so that we can have some suspense.

Haha what? An incredibly ridiculous stance. Handbooks are worthless as evidence in regards to accurate power levels. Five gets you ten they outright make shit up at times.

😬 Yup, you definitely have read none of Ulik's battles and are basing this entirely around his handbook entry. The stance is not even worth the few minutes of digging it would take to destroy.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Moondragon is able to read Thors secret in his mind and she then mind wipes all the Avengers present in these scans.

Moondragon is able to prevent every Avenger in the room from looking at her, she then freezes them all. His thoughts are interconnected to his suit, so he commands it to carry himself out of her range apparently. Anyway he doesn't jam her psi-powers he makes it difficult to deploy them. She's getting static on every channel. Can be overcome with a little concentration. The Avengers are free and Tony tells them to not give her time to concentrate. She can still deploy her TK though.

Bedlam ensanring Thor, Iron Man and Spider-Man. Xavier counters Bedlam long enough to break his hold on them.

Also, Toad used the Strangers machine to cast illusions that fooled Thor.

He's resistant...depending on the writer.

His mental resistance is really up in the air.

So what's the point of contention? Whether or not Thor can resist Emma's telepathy? Thor's resistance fluctuates but he has had enough feats to justify the stance. We've already had this discussion at length so I'm not going to bother to scans and what not. She has a better chance of creating an illusion to mess with Thor's effectiveness than actually putting Thor down.

For the record, the first set was Donald Blake.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

So what's the point of contention? Whether or not Thor can resist Emma's telepathy? Thor's resistance fluctuates but he has had enough feats to justify the stance. We've already had this discussion at length so I'm not going to bother to scans and what not. She has a better chance of creating an illusion to mess with Thor's effectiveness than actually putting Thor down.

For the record, the first set was Donald Blake.

My argument is that every single marvel character has telepathic resistance. But it varies depending on the writer. Storm, Wolverine all have high and low showings. Freakin' Hellcat resisted Overmind, he fell over after trying to read her mind.

It really is iffy because it's not consistent you go by average showings besides their were unique circumstances surrounding a lot of those instances we were discussing and some of those instances were magic derived not telepathic.

Thor is not immune, niether is he always portrayed as highly resistant. Telepathy should work on him a decent chunk of the time. And in the cases where it doesn't she's backed up by a team and Current Armor who made very short work of Fing Fang Foom.

Originally posted by leonidas
nothing against the other scans, but the moondragon ones--pretty sure she was amped during that period by the dragon of the moon. could be wrong, but i thought that was the case....

She was backed by the dragon of the moon when she found it difficult to manipulate him too. It really comes down to writers and whether it serves the plot. Bendis recently had Xavier state that he could have stopped everyone in Secret War with a thought.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
My argument is that every single marvel character has telepathic resistance. But it varies depending on the writer. Storm, Wolverine all have high and low showings. Freakin' Hellcat resisted Overmind, he fell over after trying to read her mind.

Characters fluctuating isn't news to me. I think the most consistent factor you can attribute a higher end resistance to for Thor is anger. Thor doesn't actually have telepathic resistance, not in the same sense as other characters do. He resists with sheer force of will.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It really is iffy because it's not consistent you go by average showings besides their were unique circumstances surrounding a lot of those instances we were discussing and some of those instances were magic derived not telepathic.

It's better off judged as a case by case basis but mental based powers are generally mental based powers whether they're derived from magic or not as far as I've seen. Thor for example resisting Morgana's Twilight Sword/Norn powered reality isn't any less impressive due to the source.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Thor is not immune, niether is he always portrayed as highly resistant. Telepathy should work on him a decent chunk of the time. And in the cases where it doesn't she's backed up by a team and Current Armor who made very short work of Fing Fang Foom.

That's never been my position. Telepathy would work on him almost all the time. Whether it does anything to actually stop him is the point of contention. If pushed enough, I don't like the chances of most telepaths against Thor.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
She was backed by the dragon of the moon when she found it difficult to manipulate him too. It really comes down to writers and whether it serves the plot. Bendis recently had Xavier state that he could have stopped everyone in Secret War with a thought.

So she was being amped? Heh. I only recall it's influence being evident during the Defender appearances, particularly in the high end fight against the Valkyrie.

baka Bendis is an idiot. Everyone from Ultron to Galactus to the Beyonder were present.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
a good way to put him down imo is to have the team hold him while colossus knocks him out

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Were you educated by a freakin turtle? facepalm

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
What were you educated by, a piece of dung ?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Characters fluctuating isn't news to me. I think the most consistent factor you can attribute a higher end resistance to for Thor is anger. Thor doesn't actually have telepathic resistance, not in the same sense as other characters do. He resists with sheer force of will.

That's the thing, telepathy isn't a one-trick poney. There's mind control, coercion, mind blasts, shutting down higher functions etc. The later one acts on parts of the brain no non-telepath would have control over. No amount of sheer willpower will do anything in that case. Willpower comes into play with mind control, even probing. Not in mind blasts but I figured Thors brain is as tough as his skin so that shouldn't do much to him. But shutting down higher functions, should throw him off. Also being pulled onto the Astral Plane that's another trick. I'm not sure if willpower will prevent that from happening.

It's better off judged as a case by case basis but mental based powers are generally mental based powers whether they're derived from magic or not as far as I've seen. Thor for example resisting Morgana's Twilight Sword/Norn powered reality isn't any less impressive due to the source.

But again that isn't telepathy it's not using the same mechanism as telepathy. He noticed something odd about that reality but he got tricked by Toad posing as the Stranger.

Venus's powers are magic derived but effect the brain. Enchantress persuasion are magic derived. There not the same. And even if you use that as a willpower feat it's not the same. He's a magical-based being at the end of the day that's going to count for something.

That's never been my position. Telepathy would work on him almost all the time. Whether it does anything to actually stop him is the point of contention. If pushed enough, I don't like the chances of most telepaths against Thor.

Generally anger and insanity make it difficult for telepaths to read minds but both Moondragon and Emma have shown that given time or using a different application of telepathy can put a someone down.

So she was being amped? Heh. I only recall it's influence being evident during the Defender appearances, particularly in the high end fight against the Valkyrie.

She's always been amped. It was retconned to her being amped. She's been amped byt he Dragon of the Moon up to Defenders 254 or something like that.

baka Bendis is an idiot. Everyone from Ultron to Galactus to the Beyonder were present.

It's more or less down for story purposes. Wolverine, Storm and heck even Magneto are resistant when they need to be and aren't when they're not. Again, Hellcat managed to make Overmind fall over when he mindlinked with her.

Anyway based on the comics it will work on him I'd say give it a 5/10 of him not being taken down by it. But in the cases where it doesn't work on him it will throw him off while the team tries to take advantage of that.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Colossus couldn't knock him out if thor gave him 10 free punches to the face.

its official

img862.imageshack.us/img862/8166/c100col.png

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
its official

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Fuggin AWESOME!

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
its official

img862.imageshack.us/img862/8166/c100col.png