Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Light needed Mikami to win. 😮Which again, if what Matsuda says is right, Near used Mello.
No, Light used Mikami to win. He could have used someone else. Near only won because Mello acted completely independently. Not on his own merits.
Matsuda's an idiot, and speculating.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, Light used Mikami to win. He could have used someone else. Near only won because Mello acted completely independently. Not on his own merits.Matsuda's an idiot, and speculating.
The minute Light lost contact with Mikami, he needed him. Cause there was no way he could use someone he can't actually communicate with. Unless he did something like he did with Rem. And considering the harm Mello did to Near earlier, call it a balance. 😮
Aren't we all?
The minute Light lost contact with Mikami, he needed him. Cause there was no way he could use someone he can't actually communicate with.
Yeah he can. Thats exactly what he did. Mikami followed his orders and carried out Light's plan even though they weren't in direct communication and was his b*tch the entire time. Just because a dog is out of your sight it does not stop being your dog.
And considering the harm Mello did to Near earlier, call it a balance. 😮
No, not really?
What did he do again? Other than sleep with that woman on his team.
Aren't we all?
We're debating. He was just speculating without any proof, off-hand that it could have happened. Theres no evidence that he did.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah he can. Thats exactly what he did. Mikami followed his orders and carried out Light's plan even though they weren't in direct communication and was his b*tch the entire time. Just because a dog is out of your sight it does not stop being your dog.
And if it is out of your sight, it can do all sorts of things that a thoughtless owner could not predict. Like pissing on the floor, chewing up things. I suppose Mikamis action was akin to bringing a dead bird to his master.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, not really?What did he do again? Other than sleep with that woman on his team.
He killed most of the SPK. 😮
And it isn't like Mello directly helped Near. He just did his own thing, something Light knows he does and didn't account for it, and Near capitalized on Mello's actions like always.
Originally posted by Nephthys
We're [b]debating. He was just speculating without any proof, off-hand that it could have happened. Theres no evidence that he did. [/B]
Except for the fact that he did in fact allow for Lidner to keep sharing info with Mello. By doing so, he allowed for Mello to do things with the information and thus could see more of the situation. 😮
Edit: Don't misunderstand me though, I'm not saying Near is better than L. L is obviously the better detective, just by the sheer fact that he does have qualities that Near simply lacks. Near just has more intelligence in my opinion and going by How to Read, he does. Then again, apparently Light has the same amount of intelligence as Near...which I don't actually see since I don't even think Light is smarter than L.
And if it is out of your sight, it can do all sorts of things that a thoughtless owner could not predict. Like pissing on the floor, chewing up things. I suppose Mikamis action was akin to bringing a dead bird to his master.
I fail to see how that proves that Light 'needed' him. Mikami was a pawn. He just screwed up. That doesn't reflect badly on Light at all. 😮
He killed most of the SPK. 😮
Meh. Mello still saved his ass. Without Mello he would have lost. Fact. 😮
And it isn't like Mello directly helped Near. He just did his own thing, something Light knows he does and didn't account for it, and Near capitalized on Mello's actions like always.
Doesn't matter. As you said, Mello did his own thing. It wasn't Near's own merits that won but Mello's actions, as Near himself says.
Also, Mello was intending to help.
😮
Except for the fact that he did in fact allow for Lidner to keep sharing info with Mello. By doing so, he allowed for Mello to do things with the information and thus could see more of the situation. 😮
Its never even implied that was why he let her stay. He had like 3 people left. No way could he afford to go down to 2.
Cross post:
Light was stringing Near along for the most part of that plan. Near made his plan off the fact that Mikami had the unhaunted Death Note and wrote exactly one page every night. These were both details Light created himself to make Near create the initial plan, allowing him to capatalize on the blind spots. Namely: no shinigami haunting the Note would explain not seeing a shinigami when touching a fake Note, writing exactly one page each day makes it possible to predict when Mikami will fill in a certain page, and being unaware of the fact that a single page contains the full effects of the Note allows him to hide the Note where Near will never look and use simple scraps to carry out the murders. With these details in mind, it's simple enough to see that Light was stringing Near along for the most part and has also led me to believe that a hand more suitable than Mikami may have been overlooked due to punctuality, which existed in Mikami long before the birth of Kira, being a powerful weapon against Near; it justifies this one page per night system much more efficiently. This later became a powerful weapon to aid Near, but I've already gone off on enough of a tangent here. The key point is Light was stringing Near along for a while and Near's initial plan really shouldn't be used to support him, since Near making that plan was all a part of Light's plan.
Near was good. Better than Mello at leaat, but he just made too many mistakes. Before we start with the obvious one, let's address what his big mistake ultimately equals out to: assuming. Near's lack of evidence led him to make several assumptions over the course of his investigation. Now, I say he made several mistakes, and that is true, because he made several faulty assumptions, but the thing of it is all of these mistakes collected in only two conclusions of the series. These were both conclusions drawn from the evidence, and with the exception of one or two he was always right, but he never stopped to realize where he was assuming and only doubted one of these conclusions, and he only doubted that one thanks to Mello. So, yes, the obvious mistake is the fake Death Note. Near took Mikami's actions at face value, never asking why Mikami would mention the shinigami disappearing, why he would kill in broad daylight without being somewhat secretive about it (in case he was being followed), or doubting the authenticity of the notebook in his hands despite Gevanni's message of "about 40 seconds." Even if we ignore the suspicious nature of these things and take them at face value, the simple fact that there's no shinigami means the primary method of proving the notebook's validity is gone, therefore, Kira could have swapped in a fake. However, not for a single moment before Mello's plan did Near doubt this was the real Death Note, he assumed all of these things were genuine and almost died for it. The other one is the only prior doubting Near ever did: doubting the rules after Mello told him that a shinigami said at least one (or some of the rules, I've read dual translations) was fake. Once again, he was right with his conclusion that the 13-day rule was fake, but the mistake is his dismissal of the destruction rule. His logic was: Mello didn't test this rule, therefore, this is not a fake rule. Near has never laid eyes on the rules as they were written. Therefore, he has no reason to believe Mello found a method of inductive reasoning to veto this rule. Having seen these rules, the Task Force can conclude this could be a fake rule, since it was unproven and written after the rule everyone was certain is fake, but Near didn't consider this. He didn't doubt the rule until the end when he asked Ryuk and it became important. The way Mello phrased it, he had some reason to believe there was more than one rule, but Near only focused on one. I've also established two other, unspoken reasons Near may have discarded this rule: it doesn't benefit the shinigami and it doesn't benefit Kira. Since the Note can just be handed back, the rule doesn't aid a shinigami in any way, but this acts off the assumption the shinigami wrote it for his/her own amusement. With the rules as Near knows them, the destruction rule doesn't benefit Kira, and therein lies the assumption; Near assumed he knew all the rules when he said the destruction rule wasn't the fake rule, we the fans know there is a benefit to this fake rule that hinges on another rule that Near doesn't know.
Basically, Near's too caught up in his own head to be considered smart. Deductively speaking he's unparalleled, but he lacks uncertainty and distrust. Near's too stupid to doubt himself and his conclusions until there is no more doubt. He gambled it all prematurely on a situation he didn't doubt, and would have died for it if not for Mello.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I fail to see how that proves that Light 'needed' him. Mikami was a pawn. He just screwed up. That doesn't reflect badly on Light at all. 😮
Light needed Mikami to be the perfect pawn. Which he was in most cases. Just not in every way. And doesn't it?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh. Mello still saved his ass. Without Mello he would have lost. Fact. 😮
And without Misa, Rem, Ryuk to a small extent, Takada and his downright cosmic good luck, Near would never have had to worry about Light because L would have caught him. Near would have to in his position I think, though not as concrete in that idea as L catching Kira.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Doesn't matter. As you said, Mello did his own thing. It wasn't Near's own merits that won but Mello's actions, as Near himself says.Also, Mello was intending to help.
😮
You act as though Near completely forgot about Mello's existence up until that point. Besides, when has Near ever given off the impression that he is above Mello's help? He seemed content to consider Mello's own independent actions in the past as help. So why not now?
And that really doesn't seem like Mello thought of a fake Death Note to me. It really did seem like he was trying to get ahead of Near to me. But I guess it doesn't really matter.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its never even implied that was why he let her stay. He had like 3 people left. No way could he afford to go down to 2.
He wouldn't have to let her go. In fact, it would have been foolish to do that. Near liked using the connection between Lidner and Mello.
*Snippet*
Wow, typed a lot didn't we? 😛
Everything you said was correct more or less. And everything you said fully indicates that Light's plan completely trumps Near's. That said, in no way do I really believe that Light trumps Near based on merits of intelligence.
Light's plan was better and would have killed Near had all gone according to plan. However, Near was in a position Light was not in. Rather, Near was in a position that he himself forced Light out of. The position to be able to change his plans, which in my opinion, is why Near's merits seem better than Lights. Near's plan was worse but the space around the plan was manipulated by him that it was clear that if anything unexpected happened, Light's plan would completely fall.
Light was being watched by Aizawa because Near blatantly pushed for him to be watching him. Mello was able to take action that no one expected and ultimately defeated Light because Near wanted his help.
*Snippet*
I don't really think the destruction rule matters in anyway. Near wasn't exactly going to destroy the note anyway until after the case. He made it clear that he wants to catch Light with evidence. And again, it's not like Near is the only character who assumes things. Light for example, assumed every action Near took and that his plan was perfect. Look what happened to him. L assumed so that Light was Kira so much that he actually went out to confront him himself. Even though there was no proof and Light was basically innocent based on what they observed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Basically, Near's too caught up in his own head to be considered smart. Deductively speaking he's unparalleled, but he lacks uncertainty and distrust. Near's too stupid to doubt himself and his conclusions until there is no more doubt. He gambled it all prematurely on a situation he didn't doubt, and would have died for it if not for Mello.
Near is to caught up in his own head to be considered smart huh? I don't think there are enough words to describe how big Light's ego is but he is considered smart. Yes, Near got help from Mello. But you know, if we disqualify everyone in the series that get's help from a 3rd party, all 4 of them wouldn't really be considered smart.
Here's how I see it and then I'll shut up about it. 😛
Compare Near and Light to Chefs. Near has just backed a very nice cake. Light however, baked a even better tasting soufflé. Light on the surface has the better dish to most but I don't see it that way. His dish was perfect so long as nothing bad happened, and when Mikami bumped into the table, it fell over and started to suck. Near's cake on the other hand, could be changed for the better. Think of it like Mello gave him icing to add to the top of the cake because he burnt his trying to get it finished first. Extra decorations provided by Gevanni the ninja. To many, Light might appear to be the better chef and that indeed may be the case. But I will always prefer Near just like how I will always prefer cake.
Light needed Mikami to be the perfect pawn. Which he was in most cases. Just not in every way. And doesn't it?
Someone else mucking up doesn't reflect badly on Light
And without Misa,
Actually iirc Misa kinda fvcked up his plans when she was brought in.
Rem,
Who he manipulated to his own ends. That counts in his favor.
Ryuk to a small extent,
Very small.
Takada
What did she do?
and his downright cosmic good luck,
Meh.
You act as though Near completely forgot about Mello's existence up until that point. Besides, when has Near ever given off the impression that he is above Mello's help? He seemed content to consider Mello's own independent actions in the past as help. So why not now?
I fail to see how that's supposed to impress em. It just shows that Near got to where he was with Mello's help even more than I previously remembered.
And that really doesn't seem like Mello thought of a fake Death Note to me. It really did seem like he was trying to get ahead of Near to me. But I guess it doesn't really matter.
The strong impliction is there, going by his words and expression. Near was off on that one imo.
He wouldn't have to let her go. In fact, it would have been foolish to do that. Near liked using the connection between Lidner and Mello.
Thats legitimate, and I give him props for that. But in the case where Mello saved his ass he didn't instruct her to tell him that. He wasn't intending to have Mello act. Mello acted by himself.
Wow, typed a lot didn't we?
Actually I copied it from some dude on Mangafox.
Everything you said was correct more or less. And everything you said fully indicates that Light's plan completely trumps Near's. That said, in no way do I really believe that Light trumps Near based on merits of intelligence.
I would. Light didn't get his ass saved by someone elses actions. Everything that happened bar Mikami's **** up happened by his designs. He alone manipulated everyone around him. Near, not so much.
Light's plan was better and would have killed Near had all gone according to plan. However, Near was in a position Light was not in. Rather, Near was in a position that he himself forced Light out of. The position to be able to change his plans, which in my opinion, is why Near's merits seem better than Lights. Near's plan was worse but the space around the plan was manipulated by him that it was clear that if anything unexpected happened, Light's plan would completely fall.Light was being watched by Aizawa because Near blatantly pushed for him to be watching him. Mello was able to take action that no one expected and ultimately defeated Light because Near wanted his help.
I strongly disagree. Near's initial plan would have been a total failure if it had not been for Mikami fvcking up.
Light lost because of pure luck.
I don't really think the destruction rule matters in anyway. Near wasn't exactly going to destroy the note anyway until after the case. He made it clear that he wants to catch Light with evidence. And again, it's not like Near is the only character who assumes things. Light for example, assumed every action Near took and that his plan was perfect. Look what happened to him. L assumed so that Light was Kira so much that he actually went out to confront him himself. Even though there was no proof and Light was basically innocent based on what they observed.
This part just indicates Near's failings in the deductive process. I'm not too bothered about it, but the failings exist.
Light's plan was fantastic. He accurately predicted what Near would do. Again, it was just luck and Mikami.
Yes, Near got help from Mello. But you know, if we disqualify everyone in the series that get's help from a 3rd party, all 4 of them wouldn't really be considered smart.
No. An example would be if in a sword fight, Light beat L straight up, by using what he had available in order to succeed. On the other hand, Near beat Light because Mello walked up behind him and smacked him, or rather because Lights sowrd broke. Would you consider Near the superior swordsman because Lights sword broke, o because he had the help of another combatant? Because I sure as shit wouldnt.
Near even explicitly says that he wasn't enough and that it was only because of Mello that he won. You can't argue differently.
Here's how I see it and then I'll shut up about it. stick out tongue
Compare Near and Light to Chefs. Near has just backed a very nice cake. Light however, baked a even better tasting soufflé. Light on the surface has the better dish to most but I don't see it that way. His dish was perfect so long as nothing bad happened, and when Mikami bumped into the table, it fell over and started to suck. Near's cake on the other hand, could be changed for the better. Think of it like Mello gave him icing to add to the top of the cake because he burnt his trying to get it finished first. Extra decorations provided by Gevanni the ninja. To many, Light might appear to be the better chef and that indeed may be the case. But I will always prefer Near just like how I will always prefer cake.
Oh, well it appears that you would say that then. 😬
Light is the superior chef. Just because Mikami knocked his dish over doesn't stop that from being a thing that is true.
And so you admit that Light is in fact smarter then? You just like Near more. I'm cool with that, just as long as you admit it.
Also I don't see how you can say Near's above Light but not above L considering Light beat L.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Someone else mucking up doesn't reflect badly on Light
It does too. It reflects badly on him because he chose someone who mucked up and didn't plan on it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually iirc Misa kinda fvcked up his plans when she was brought in.
L would have eventually caught him. He couldn't kill L and he couldn't use anyone else to kill him at the time. There really wasn't anything Light could have done to stop L from catching Kira.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Who he manipulated to his own ends. That counts in his favor.
Light manipulated Mikami huh? Not really. Light didn't get Mikami to serve him through any charm or anything. Mikami was just perfectly accepting of Kira then and there. Light did use Mikami though, obviously.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Very small.
Found them there camera's for him. 😛
Originally posted by Nephthys
What did she do?
Kill Mello?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh.
COSMIC!
Originally posted by Nephthys
I fail to see how that's supposed to impress em. It just shows that Near got to where he was with Mello's help even more than I previously remembered.
Near was aware of a capable 3rd parties abilities and personality. He then capitalized on said 3rd party to further his position. Light does the same thing.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats legitimate, and I give him props for that. But in the case where Mello saved his ass he didn't instruct her to tell him that. He wasn't intending to have Mello act. Mello acted by himself.
And Light didn't instruct Rem to kill L. Light didn't instruct Misa to get the eyes again. Only real difference is Near couldn't predict Mello's actions. Neither could Light for that matter. And that is why Near considered Mello so helpful. And no, Near didn't tell him to save his ass. But he did allow Lidner to tell Mello when he was planning on facing Kira.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I would. Light didn't get his ass saved by someone elses actions. Everything that happened bar Mikami's **** up happened by his designs. He alone manipulated everyone around him. Near, not so much.
Remu? And not really. Everything that happened except for Mello went as he had predicted.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I strongly disagree. Near's initial plan would have been a total failure if it had not been for Mikami fvcking up.Light lost because of pure luck.
I don't believe I said it wasn't. Near himself put Light into a position where he could not act and thus had to form his plan blind. Because Light was in that position, Near could change his plan and completely ruin Light.
Fitting, considering how far he got through luck.
Originally posted by Nephthys
This part just indicates Near's failings in the deductive process. I'm not too bothered about it, but the failings exist.Light's plan was fantastic. He accurately predicted what Near would do. Again, it was just luck and Mikami.
Why is not predicting that rule was fake a failing? It can't be test for one and for two it doesn't matter whether it is fake or not.
So fantastic it failed when the smallest variable got in the way. Mikami was Kira's follower. Mikami's failures will reflect badly on Kira, which is what happened.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No. An example would be if in a sword fight, Light beat L straight up, by using what he had available in order to succeed. On the other hand, Near beat Light because Mello walked up behind him and smacked him, or rather because Lights sowrd broke. Would you consider Near the superior swordsman because Lights sword broke, o because he had the help of another combatant? Because I sure as shit wouldnt.
Light beat L straight up? lol no. L was certainly ready to prove the 13 day rule was fake and that Light was Kira. The only reason it happened was because Rem, who L would never factor in as an enemy. So the scenario where Mello slapped Light in the back of the head works better for L. I do like the broken sword scenario because that is what happened. And actually, I would. Light was the one who left his sword in the hands of someone else and expected it to be perfect for the fight. He didn't notice or predict that tiny crack in the blade. The smartest person is someone who can make sure their plan will work. Near could. Light couldn't.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Near even explicitly says that he wasn't enough and that it was only because of Mello that he won. You can't argue differently.
I don't believe I'm trying to?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh, well it appears that you would say that then. 😬Light is the superior chef. Just because Mikami knocked his dish over doesn't stop that from being a thing that is true.
And so you admit that Light is in fact smarter then? You just like Near more. I'm cool with that, just as long as you admit it.
Say what? 😮
Actually, Light arguably isn't the chef in my scenario. He didn't do the baking, he just made the recipe and ordered Mikami to make. And considering Mikami is the chef and it was Mikami that bumped into the table causing the dish to suck, it means Light picked an incompetent chef.
That may be the case. But I don't think so personally. And yes, obviously I prefer Light. Even more than L actually.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also I don't see how you can say Near's above Light but not above L considering Light beat L.
Well I dunno about Light beating L. All he did was predict Rem would kill him. Besides, it wasn't as if L was on even ground with Light as far as knowledge of the Death Note goes. Near knew about the Death Note before creating the SPK after all, whereas L only knew about it a few days before his death.