Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So are you just going to star listing every species that had at least one member as a Force-user?
Well I'm hoping people'll post their own lists, I'm just trying to think of candidates.
And some species just don't have any force users that could be top 20 that we know of. None of the Hutt jedi we know have been all that, for example.
Originally posted by Galan007
Okay?All I'm saying is that for having [b]900+
years of training/experience under his belt, Yoda wasn't that powerful. Dooku, for instance, was very close to Yoda's level and he was only 83 years old when he died. [/B]
Yoda and Dooku are not close. There is a big gap between them especially in the force. Dooku only shown to be able to give Yoda a challenge in sabers.
I understand what you are saying, and I disagree with it. I believe Yoda was very powerful for his age considering all other things he had learned in those years. I don't know of too many jedi who have mastered all seven forms of saber combat. I don't know of too many jedi who have mastered battle meditation on the same level as Yoda, or too many other jedi who are able to not only absorb sith lightning with their bare hands, but also redirect it, especially from a sith lord as powerful as Darth Sidious. How many force users can you name who have demonstrated amazing feats of TK on the level of Yoda without having to tap into the dark side? I don't even know of too many other force users who were as attuned to the force as Yoda was, being able to see the future with accuracy, or see things through the force in great detail without having to even be there. I don't even think Luke, for all his power, was as attuned to the force as Yoda was. Yoda excelled at just about everything he did learn.
We also do not know how old Yoda was when he reached his peak in combat perfomance. You're not considering everything else Yoda learned over the years that were not even force related. Yoda was not a power hungry individual who was trying to become the greatest force user ever the way Darth Sidious was.
Originally posted by Lucius
Consider that Yoda, a religious leader independent of the Republic government, started the Clone Wars by attacking Geonosis. For that matter, not using any metaknowlege, why would the Separatists attack worlds that didn't agree to succeed? The Separatists didn't actually attack anyone, and as far as anyone is concerned, they apprehended a Jedi spy, a Republic Senator acting like some kind of commando, and another Jedi spy. It isn't open knowledge that Nute Gunray wanted Padme killed, nor is it apparent that the Jedi are being tossed into an arena, Nero style. The only thing Yoda knows is that Obi-wan got cut off mid transmission. He doesn't even know Anakin and Padme are there. In fact, they wouldn't have been there if Padme wasn't dumb as a fvcking stump.Yoda, with his limited knowledge of what was going on, attacks a Separatist planet with an army of clones and Jedi. No one appears to object to this decision, no one in the Senate seems to care that one Jedi has just instigated a galactic civil war.
It isn't so much Palpatine's “brilliance” as it is Yoda's stupidity. Simply put, all of Yoda's "accomplishments" are informed abilities. We are told he is wise, we never see this so called wisdom besides some scenes in ESB.
What? The jedi did not go to Geonosis to attack. They went there to find out what was going on. The jedi were actually the ones who were attacked first. And when Yoda and the clones arrived, they didn't start opening fire until they seen that most of the jedi were dead, and the survivors were being surrounded and held at gun point.
Whether or not Yoda would have decided to go to Geonosis to find out what was happening or not, the separatist would have declared war on the republic anyways. There were already increasing threats from the separatist, which was the whole point of the military creation act.
What do you think Yoda should have done after finding out that there was an army of clones being created on a planet that was mysteriously erased from the jedi archives, and then the host of the clones is followed by Obi Wan to a separatist planet where Obi Wan is visibly attacked through a transmission? Should he have went there alone to be captured as well?
Sure, through the publics eyes Yoda may have looked like the cause of the war, but there would have been a war regardless of the battle on Geonosis, which is why the separatists were investing so much on a droid army. Yoda had no time to sit and mope about how bad he may have looked to the public. He was forced protect the republic from the separatists, without any clue that the whole thing was being instagated by the repulics leader.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
What he's saying is that, given Yoda's purported natural talent and his centuries of experience and opportunity to master the Force, he should have been entirely on a different league than someone like Dooku or even Sidious.
I know what he meant. Dooku and Sidious were dark side users, and Dooku thought that just by Yoda falling to the dark side, he would be capable of annilating Darth Sidious. Dooku must have recieved a huge surge in power after joining the dark side for him to think that falling to the dark side would grant Yoda that much power.
The dark side helps you to reach your potential at a far faster speed. You would think that Starkiller lived three times longer than Anakin Skywalker when comparing their feats in the force.
I'm afraid I must disagree with you here, because G007's point is enticing.
Yoda presumably has the highest midichlorian count on record (or at least at during the PT) excluding Anakin Skywalker, based off Obi-Wan's amazed exclamation in The Phantom Menace that "not even Master Yoda has a count [as high as Anakin's]," which would only make sense in context if Yoda's was the next best thing.
Despite the fact that Yoda enjoys a healthy superiority over the likes of Mace or the good Count, it isn't monstrous. It's not like Yoda could effortlessly pwn or otherwise curbstomp either one of them, because that level of dominance has neither been depicted or implied.
What you're saying isn't adding up, because it would mean that Yoda's superiority over non-dark siders should be incomprehensibly vast.
It probably would be if Yoda would allow himself to let loose, which is something that he has mused about in a couple of different situations, but has not actually done. The "light side" of the Force only allows a user so much, especially for someone as dedicated to not following the path of the darkside as Yoda is. Yoda's weakness is his prudeness so to speak. Yoda unleashed would be... incredible.
JT
It probably would be if Yoda would allow himself to let loose, which is something that he has mused about in a couple of different situations, but has not actually done. The "light side" of the Force only allows a user so much, especially for someone as dedicated to not following the path of the darkside as Yoda is. Yoda's weakness is his prudeness so to speak. Yoda unleashed would be... incredible.
I'm still not buying it, though. Consider that, even when restrained, Luke dominates someone like Caedus or UnuThul in the Force despite their own incredible power. Yoda might not have quite the raw power of Luke or Anakin, but he has centuries the experience/training that they do and has probably explored the depths of his potential to an extent that Luke never has.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Was Yoda more powerful? Absolutely. Was the power gap between them that significant? No... Especially when you consider that Yoda had been studying the force some 800 years longer than than Dooku.
Yoda and Dooku are not close.
Like Gid pointed out: Sans the Skywalker clan, Yoda had the highest midichlorian count of his generation, AND he had 900 years in which to hone his skills/power. He *should* have been able to trounce absolutely anyone without much difficulty (which wasn't the case.) Imo, he just wasn't very powerful, all things considered.