Originally posted by Galan007
^ I disagree. The only way for a Jedi to plateau is if he/she let themselves plateau. There are always new things to learn/master - Yoda would likely be the first one to admit this.
Perhaps Yoda is proof there is a max limit to reach (combat wise at least). By the point of the PT if anything his age was probably a liability.
A 200 year old Yoda may have been much more powerful than PT Yoda.
Originally posted by ares834I still see that as more of a self-imposed limitation than anything. You should never think your skills are so great that you have nothing left to learn. That's a path to fail right thur.
Sure he could learn new techniques. But his actual power and skill with a saber can only become so good.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERPersonally, I don't think Yoda's old age hindered him at all.
Perhaps Yoda is proof there is a max limit to reach (combat wise at least). By the point of the PT if anything his age was probably a liability.A 200 year old Yoda may have been much more powerful than PT Yoda.
Originally posted by Galan007
I still see that as more of a self-imposed limitation than anything. You should never think your skills are so great that you have nothing left to learn. That's a path to fail right thur.
But it's true. Every one has a limit, even Jedi. And when one gets closer and closer to this limit it typically takes longer and longer to become more skilled. Take Taekwondo for example. One can accelerate through the first couple of belts quickly, but soon it takes longer to go from belt to belt. And when one becomes a black belt it takes many years to go from one degree to another. Why? Because when one becomes more and more skilled it takes longer and longer to improve. So sure he can improve but it would likely be negliable.
Also, once you get to a certain point you can't get a boost simply by branching out and learning a new existing style, because you'll run out of stuff you can really branch out too. You'll have learned all the additional bits of information floating around and can only polish what you have, or the painfully slow process of inventing new stuff that no-one has seen.
The only times I can think of when someone who's already uber gets a major jump in a short period of time are Clone Palpatine and Reborn Krayt, and Krayt flat-out said seeing the other side of death and fighting back made him stronger and showed him what he needed to see.
ares
But it's true. Every one has a limit, even Jedi. And when one gets closer and closer to this limit it typically takes longer and longer to become more skilled. Take Taekwondo for example. One can accelerate through the first couple of belts quickly, but soon it takes longer to go from belt to belt. And when one becomes a black belt it takes many years to go from one degree to another. Why? Because when one becomes more and more skilled it takes longer and longer to improve. So sure he can improve but it would likely be negliable.
Q99
Also, once you get to a certain point you can't get a boost simply by branching out and learning a new existing style, because you'll run out of stuff you can really branch out too. You'll have learned all the additional bits of information floating around and can only polish what you have, or the painfully slow process of inventing new stuff that no-one has seen.
Galan007
Personally, I don't think Yoda's old age hindered him at all.
Originally posted by ares834
But it's true. Every one has a limit, even Jedi. And when one gets closer and closer to this limit it typically takes longer and longer to become more skilled. Take Taekwondo for example. One can accelerate through the first couple of belts quickly, but soon it takes longer to go from belt to belt. And when one becomes a black belt it takes many years to go from one degree to another. Why? Because when one becomes more and more skilled it takes longer and longer to improve. So sure he can improve but it would likely be negliable.
Originally posted by Q99I think there was a miscommunication somewhere. I was referring to Yoda's overall powers with the force, not his technical skill with a lightsaber... And while it's true that he most certainly could have invented new forms of combat to stay 'fresh' over the years, we know he didn't (or at least I've never read anything saying he did.) Ataru was his go-to.
Also, once you get to a certain point you can't get a boost simply by branching out and learning a new existing style, because you'll run out of stuff you can really branch out too. You'll have learned all the additional bits of information floating around and can only polish what you have,
Originally posted by ares834Like Vaapad (which in all likelihood is the deadliest form to ever exist)? A form Mace invented/developed/mastered over the span of a few decades?
or the painfully slow process of inventing new stuff that no-one has seen.
If Yoda weren't so lazy, he surely could have invented the 'end all, be all' form with 900 years of practice.
Originally posted by Q99From what we were shown (on film, or in novelizations) Yoda really didn't begin to scratch the surface of 'Jedi tricks'. For instance, Qui-Gon is the one who trained Yoda how to exist as a force spirit after he died. This means Yoda had lived for some 800 years without ever learning that talent. Furthermore, I never saw Yoda utilize abilities such as: force healing, healing trance, psychometry, malacia, battle-meld, sever force, shatterpoint, alter environment, combustion, morichro, doppelganger, etc. - all of which are in a Jedi's 'scope of practice'.
Well, I refer to 'styles' as part of a martial arts analogy, but it applies to force knowledge too. Once you've read through all the tricks in the Jedi library (or all the Sith holocrons and documents you own if you're on that side), you're mostly going to be fine-tuning your skills.
And yes, I understand full well that Yoda's main focus wasn't battle oriented. I'm just saying that his range of exotic force powers didn't seem overly impressive (especially for someone who was 900 years old.) Imo there were still multiple areas in which he could have furthered his knowledge/prowess with the force.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
Yoda presumably has the highest midichlorian count on record (or at least at during the PT) excluding Anakin Skywalker, based off Obi-Wan's amazed exclamation in The Phantom Menace that "not even Master Yoda has a count [as high as Anakin's]," which would only make sense in context if Yoda's was the next best thing.Despite the fact that Yoda enjoys a healthy superiority over the likes of Mace or the good Count, it [b]isn't
monstrous. It's not like Yoda could effortlessly pwn or otherwise curbstomp either one of them, because that level of dominance has neither been depicted or implied.[/B]
So you believe that because Yoda had the highest midi count excluding Anakin Skywalker (as of TPM), and has had far more time to reach his potential than most, that he should be able to pwn anyone in a combat situation? I disagree with that, though I do believe that he certainly has a much higher chance at defeating just about any opponent he faces, but the force does not revolve solely around combat. There are other aspects of the force that do not focus around combat. For all we know Yoda could have reached his peak performance combat-wise at a far earlier age than 800 years old. All we know is that Yoda has a mastered a far greater range of force powers at a very high degree than any other force user of his time (excluding Darth Sidious), and 900 years gave him that opportunity.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
What you're saying isn't adding up, because it would mean that Yoda's superiority over non-dark siders should be incomprehensibly vast.
I would say Ventress is a match for most jedi masters of her time, and yet Yoda easily paralyzes her with a gesture. His superiority over her seemed like it was incomprehensibly vast. As of right now, I can't think of any jedi in the PT era who would be a challenge for Yoda except for Windu.
This is how I look at it:
(1.) We are never led to believe that the dark side enables Force users to jump the totem pole of power to absurd degrees. I have a hard time believing that the likes of Dooku or Sidious can compete with Yoda just because they're Sith.
(2.) Though this is hardly concrete, the text suggests that Yoda's midichlorian count is second (at least at the time) to Anakin's own. If his midichlorian count is higher than such prodigies as Dooku and Windu, and he has had eight hundred years to dedicate with the goal of harnessing that power, he should be considerably more powerful than virtually any character in the mythos. Windu himself should not be a challenge.
(3.) We see that simply being a dark sider isn't sufficient to defeat Jedi.
On paper, Yoda should be lightyears ahead of everybody, including the Skywalkers.
(1.) We are never led to believe that the dark side enables Force users to jump the totem pole of power to absurd degrees.
Yes we are. 😬
Spoiler:
Unless you meant 'it allows them to gain power more quickly, but not too that extent.'
I'm still saying old age fvcked him up. 20 years is like 2/0.2 percent of his life-span.
Originally posted by Q99PLEASE NOT THE YODA DISCCUSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even if it took him awhile to get there, Yoda's still in the ranks of 'best ever'.Lesse, Kopecz, a Twi'lek, was one of Kaan's rivals and one of the top Sith in the Brotherhood of Darkness. He was pretty strong.
The One Sith seemed to be an order that had a lot of strong non-humans of various species in high places- Nagai (Nihl), Twi'lek (Talon), Devaronian (Maladi).