Pokemon vs Mortal Kombat!

Originally posted by Burning thought
[B]To give a general idea on what a pokemon is. If I opened a survivial book and it has a picture of a bear and says "bears eat everything, beware" then I went on some forum and claimed a bear could eat steel or adamantium, I would be in error. Its the sort of general claim that puts its point across but does not have to be taken literally. That is an extreme example but any error can put scrutiny on what the dex says.

As I said earlier some versions are clearly hyperbole. For example Charizard's breath is said to be hot enough to melt anything, that statement would be true but only in the pokemon universe.

Also, the Dex changes every version does it not? or every couple of versions, it does not always have the same entry? If so then a more recent version may have ret-conned previous information, because if its not the latest claim I would argue a creature being able to toss a mountain should certain always have this statement in the pokedex if its to be taken seriously.

Yes, the pokedex has different entries but I'm not sure how that really is an argument against it being invalid. The entires don't retcon previous ones as they don't contradict one another.

If its the only source then that does not mean it can be used based on that solely, its not likely to convince anyone who wants cold hard facts/evidence.

The 'dex is quite clearly meant to be a canon source, like DA's codex entries, they are there to present us with information of the pokemon world. It doesn't get much more "factly" than this.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You're asking me how the Pokedex works when I've already made it clear that I don't know nor do I actually care. I have two suggestions and your free to take the pick between the two.

Because that explanation makes the most sense in context. And I promise you, Machamp can toss any of the humans in the Pokemon universe over the horizon. That isn't a fallacy, it is fact. And no, you're right. I can't prove anything in the Pokedex. [b]I guess it's just absolutely ****ing ridiculous of me to think that something in the ****ing game knows what the **** it's talking about concerning creatures within that ****ing game. And no, the anime is not reliable. See Thunder Armor to know exactly what I mean.

And if you have alternatives to how the Pokedex works, I'm all ears. [/B]

No, it doesn't. From where you drawn such radical theories? Nowhere in the game says so. You can promise me whatever you want but without evidence it is meaningless, I already proved Machamp's entries in the Pokedex are garbage. I'm glad you agree that the entries aren't backed up with absolutely NOTHING. And just because an attack does not exist in the games doesn't mean anything. It means it doesn't exists in that universe / canon of the franchise. Both are separate canons. Point is we can see what actually happens, we cannot say the same about the entries.

Neph gave one, Burning gave some others and here you have another: The creators wrote the entries without thinking about it as deeply as you.

Tyranitar:

Its body can't be harmed by any sort of attack

Oh noes. Tynanitar is invincible.

Originally posted by ares834
As I said earlier some versions are clearly hyperbole. For example Charizard's breath is said to be hot enough to melt anything, that statement would be true but only in the pokemon universe.

Yes, the pokedex has different entries but I'm not sure how that really is an argument against it being invalid. The entires don't retcon previous ones as they don't contradict one another.

The 'dex is quite clearly meant to be a canon source, like DA's codex entries, they are there to present us with information of the pokemon world. It doesn't get much more "factly" than this.

If some piecies are clearly hyperbole then how factual can you claim the dex at all? straight away clearly this is not a work of solid base, science has to be specific so the claims other people have been using revolved around how science which "knows its stuff" made it are foiled. Also, how do you know thats even true in the pokemon universe?

Well my point, was that if this Dex is supposed to be such a factual document, why would they change its content so much (every generation)?, What version said machamp could throw mountains and what version (is it newer?) that says something not so important because I know if a creature could throw mountans, a serious document irl would not change that information or remove it.

its not just about being canon, its about how factual the information is within that universe. I am sure at some point or another, including the hyperbole you have pointed out lies or at least twisted truths are present in said universe.

I think the dex is being used as some sort of Pokemon bible that never tells a lie, when clearly its information is not supposed to be interpreted so deeply,its just a source for some kids like young Pokemon handlers (like Ash) to pick up and read a general basis.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because in Games vs until the thread starter says otherwise only the game itself is canon and only the games evidence is relevent.

Indeed, whats in the anime at the moment is unimportant, completly null as evidence.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Indeed, whats in the anime at the moment is unimportant, completly null as evidence.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Exactly. Ergo, the Pokedex's description of the Pokemon's abilities is a higher canon than the anime, hence the idiotspew of "Well that's not what the anime shows!" is retarded. Leave the anime out of this. It's a separate universe from the games and doesn't belong here.

I agree, both are separate canon. But no one has said "Well that's not what the anime shows!" , though.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I suggest you take a step back and relax, swearing will not convince them of your point. However, something does not have undeniable knowledge on something just because its in the game. Many characters can be fallible, therefore so can machines, objects and data unless it is proven they are undeniable. When you have no limit fallacies and basic hyperbole added in said data, its clear the Pokedex is not some sort of advanced scientific compendium that only speaks fact.

Nobody needs an alternative, they simply need a solid fact on how it works, or more importantly their opposition needs one to convince them of how it works.

I was kidding with the swearing. Mostly because it is silly to see someone overreact and I wanted to entertain you guys. >_>

2 ways this can go:

Either accept the Pokedex as giving canon information. It gives us the precise details on a Pokemon's weight, height, living environments, what kinds of abilities it has, it's moves(note: last two are indeed proven from the anime but it makes sense instead of just knowing a Pokemon's attacks randomly). In a series where a turtle can breathe smoke and fire, where creatures are made of toxic sludge, and where a tiny pink kitten can get it on with a giant whale to produce some HSOWA, something like a 4 armed creature throwing mountains is not that strange.

Or don't accept it because some of it sounds like hyperbole.

I've given you ideas on how it works. 😮

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No, it doesn't. From where you drawn such radical theories? Nowhere in the game says so. You can promise me whatever you want but without evidence it is meaningless, I already proved Machamp's entries in the Pokedex are garbage. I'm glad you agree that the entries aren't backed up with absolutely NOTHING. And just because an attack does not exist in the games doesn't mean anything. It means it doesn't exists in that universe / canon of the franchise. Both are separate canons. Point is we can see what actually happens, we cannot say the same about the entries.

Neph gave one, Burning gave some others and here you have another: The creators wrote the entries without thinking about it as deeply as you.

[b]Tyranitar:

Its body can't be harmed by any sort of attack

Oh noes. Tynanitar is invincible. [/B]

Because there are labs in the Pokemon universe. Know what labs are usually used for? Testing things. And no, you didn't. In the Pokemon world, Machamp can send any human and I'd wager most Pokemon, over the horizon. Humans and Pokemon to not equal a mountain in terms of weight. What do you want the entries to be backed up with? Data log entries or something? That isn't what the game is concerned with. The creators of Pokemon are not meant to answer to the players beck and call every time a question is raised. Take things at face value like they're meant to be taken.

Unless they make an actual statement along the lines of "We probably exaggerated a little with the Pokedex", it should be taken as complete canon. The only reason someone would not want to is because they have a problem with Pokemon having actual feats.

There is nothing wrong with that statement. As far as I know, nothing has ever broken Tyranitars body. That does not mean it cannot be hurt. A guy in knight's armor is still going to get hurt if you punch him a lot with iron knuckled gloves. Or whatever you want to punch him with.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I was kidding with the swearing. Mostly because it is silly to see someone overreact and I wanted to entertain you guys. >_>

2 ways this can go:

Either accept the Pokedex as giving canon information. It gives us the precise details on a Pokemon's weight, height, living environments, what kinds of abilities it has, it's moves(note: last two are indeed proven from the anime but it makes sense instead of just knowing a Pokemon's attacks randomly). In a series where a turtle can breathe smoke and fire, where creatures are made of toxic sludge, and where a tiny pink kitten can get it on with a giant whale to produce some HSOWA, something like a 4 armed creature throwing mountains is not that strange.

Or don't accept it because some of it sounds like hyperbole.

I've given you ideas on how it works. 😮

Theres a difference between canon and factual information, it may well be canon which I am in no doubt about but based on the hyperbole and loose claims I do not belive its factual or a strong source to use. Sure it may make sense but the anime is irrelevent, pretend it does not even exist in this forum, then you would not know of it. Its strange because mountains are enormous, and I belive machamp are not only tiny by comparison, would have trouble even gripping it and finally, would devastate the land unless the mountains are tiny. I also scrutinise how they found this information out.

Well I would not accept it as a strong factual source, a lot of the claims are fairly hyperbole meaning it loses some credability, tossing mountains is like the claim for Hercules/Kratos having planet lifting strength, their unlikely and unplausable.

Ideas, but not facts. We cannot simply use ideas, my idea I said before was simply speculation, we could all have ideas on how it works.

Also dont forget that even if we accepted everything the Pokedex said, its not giving feats, its claiming a feat. So there are many doubts whether or not the pokedex can be trusted even if we accepted it as a source even worth using.

Either accept the Pokedex as giving canon information. It gives us the precise details on a Pokemon's weight, height,

This just makes it more unreliable imo. Unless all pokemon are exactly the same weight and height that is.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Because there are labs in the Pokemon universe. Know what labs are usually used for? Testing things. And no, you didn't. In the Pokemon world, Machamp can send any human and I'd wager most Pokemon, over the horizon. Humans and Pokemon to not equal a mountain in terms of weight. What do you want the entries to be backed up with? Data log entries or something? That isn't what the game is concerned with. The creators of Pokemon are not meant to answer to the players beck and call every time a question is raised. Take things at face value like they're meant to be taken.

Unless they make an actual statement along the lines of "We probably exaggerated a little with the Pokedex", it should be taken as complete canon. The only reason someone would not want to is because they have a problem with Pokemon having actual feats.

There is nothing wrong with that statement. As far as I know, nothing has ever broken Tyranitars body. That does not mean it cannot be hurt. A guy in knight's armor is still going to get hurt if you punch him a lot with iron knuckled gloves. Or whatever you want to punch him with.

Because there are labs? That makes no sense at all. What's your point? Machamp has never done that in any game and there is nothing to back up the entry. Not even gameplay mechanics. People from that world don't even comment on such exaggerated feats and how they impact in the planet. Do you really think that Machamps moving mountains as if they were nothing wouldn't create controversy among the Pokemon universe? Not to mention other crazy stuff the Pokemon ''supposedly'' performs. You have nothing. Not even recorded events. And you have no idea what the creators intended. But judging by the entries alone, they aren't meant to be taken literally since, you know, they aren't backed up with anything in first place. Hell, they don't even affect the game in the least.

You don't need a statement saying they're exaggeated. Don't try to explain Tyranitar's entry because it's plain simple, it says it can't be hurt by any attack. End of story. That's a no limits fallacy once again.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And no, the anime is not reliable. See Thunder Armor to know exactly what I mean.

😆

I lost what little respect I had for the anime after seeing that one.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
There is nothing wrong with that statement. As far as I know, nothing has ever broken Tyranitars body. That does not mean it cannot be hurt. A guy in knight's armor is still going to get hurt if you punch him a lot with iron knuckled gloves. Or whatever you want to punch him with.

Broken is different than harmed. If a knight in armor is feeling pain, it's because part of his body is being damaged in some way.

The entry said the body cannot be harmed. As in damaged. As in hurt. If a Tyranitar is feeling pain from an attack, it's because he is being damaged. Unless of course a Tyranitar just feels pain when something touches him even though nothing bad is happening to his body.

The pokedex entries may technically be canon, but they aren't well thought out. Reading them shows that the developers where just writing what sounds cool.

For example, I can't remember right off which pokemon (I'd have to do some research). But there is one pokedex entry that says a pokemon can move at, like, mach 2. While another says a pokemon can move at mach 3. But, in game, the mach 2 pokemon actually has a higher speed stat than the mach 3 one.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless all pokemon are exactly the same weight and height that is.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Because there are labs? That makes no sense at all. What's your point? Machamp has never done that in any game and there is nothing to back up the entry. Not even gameplay mechanics. People from that world don't even comment on such exaggerated feats and how they impact in the planet. Do you really think that Machamps moving mountains as if they were nothing wouldn't create controversy among the Pokemon universe? Not to mention other crazy stuff the Pokemon ''supposedly'' performs. You have nothing. Not even recorded events. And you have no idea what the creators intended. But judging by the entries alone, they aren't meant to be taken literally since, you know, they aren't backed up with anything in first place. Hell, they don't even affect the game in the least.

You don't need a statement saying they're exaggeated. Don't try to explain Tyranitar's entry because it's plain simple, it says it can't be hurt by any attack. End of story. That's a no limits fallacy once again.

Stating that because there's nothing to support the statements from the pokedex, they therefore are hyperbole, is not an argument. There's nothing in the games that shed any light on any pokemon what-so-ever, by the very nature of the game itself, so you can't fault it for that. Wither you like it nor not, because the pokedex's are in the game and provide some description for the pokemon, from an argument/logical perspective the only way to discredit those pokedex entries would be to provide canon that is contrary.

Case in point, your consistent protest of the pokedex entry stating that Machamp can launch people across the horizons. Do you have any evidence whatsoever from the games that implies that Machamp is too weak to launch someone across the horizon? Do you? If you don't then there is nothing that would imply that the pokedex is being hyperbolic in that instance. Hence, you have no argument.

Why are Blax and I the ones defending the Pokedex? Isn't that the LLLC's job or something?

Originally posted by Nephthys
This just makes it more unreliable imo. Unless all pokemon are exactly the same weight and height that is.

Pfft, why?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Theres a difference between canon and factual information, it may well be canon which I am in no doubt about but based on the hyperbole and loose claims I do not belive its factual or a strong source to use. Sure it may make sense but the anime is irrelevent, pretend it does not even exist in this forum, then you would not know of it. Its strange because mountains are enormous, and I belive machamp are not only tiny by comparison, would have trouble even gripping it and finally, would devastate the land unless the mountains are tiny. I also scrutinise how they found this information out.

Well I would not accept it as a strong factual source, a lot of the claims are fairly hyperbole meaning it loses some credability, tossing mountains is like the claim for Hercules/Kratos having planet lifting strength, their unlikely and unplausable.

Ideas, but not facts. We cannot simply use ideas, my idea I said before was simply speculation, we could all have ideas on how it works.

Also dont forget that even if we accepted everything the Pokedex said, its not giving feats, its claiming a feat. So there are many doubts whether or not the pokedex can be trusted even if we accepted it as a source even worth using.

Why is it hyperbole?

If it happens within the canon of the series, it happens. I don't care if it's ridiculous or not. Unless Word of God is used, games>

You're idea of the Pokedex being a wikipedia huh? Considering the people editing that particular wiki are either scientists in the game who know more than you, or player characters, who still know more than you.

Considering there are few Pokemon games where you can actually see feats, claiming them is pretty much it. And the only reason to doubt the claims is not wanting to accept the feat. That is literally the only reason to doubt the Pokedex.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Because there are labs? That makes no sense at all. What's your point? Machamp has never done that in any game and there is nothing to back up the entry. Not even gameplay mechanics. People from that world don't even comment on such exaggerated feats and how they impact in the planet. Do you really think that Machamps moving mountains as if they were nothing wouldn't create controversy among the Pokemon universe? Not to mention other crazy stuff the Pokemon ''supposedly'' performs. You have nothing. Not even recorded events. And you have no idea what the creators intended. But judging by the entries alone, they aren't meant to be taken literally since, you know, they aren't backed up with anything in first place. Hell, they don't even affect the game in the least.

You don't need a statement saying they're exaggeated. Don't try to explain Tyranitar's entry because it's plain simple, it says it can't be hurt by any attack. End of story. That's a no limits fallacy once again.

Laboratories are where scientists run test. I said the Pokedex being based on offscreen testing makes the most sense. Where would said testing be? In the lab.And people in that world probably don't comment on such exaggerations because their used to it. And no, I don't think it would. Because for starters there are not a lot of Machamp in the wild and most trainers have no reason to tell their Machamp to toss that mountain over there. Oh, I have nothing huh? Where do you get the right to question the Pokedex to begin with? It's a device in game that records information on Pokemon. That's it. How it does so is irrelevant to the player's experience of the game.

I would actually say my comparison works nicely, considering it is the Armor Pokemon. It's armor is immune to attacks outside, it itself will still feel some of the damage. And it is a no limits fallacy only because you don't want to accept another explanation. And the only reason to do that is because you don't want to accept the Pokedex.

Good question. I hate Pokemon.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I would actually say my comparison works nicely, considering it is the Armor Pokemon. It's armor is immune to attacks outside, it itself will still feel some of the damage. And it is a no limits fallacy only because you don't want to accept another explanation. And the only reason to do that is because you don't want to accept the Pokedex.

That isn't what the pokedex said, though. It said it's body can't be harmed. If it's body is feeling pain, them it's body is being harmed. Thus, according to the pokedex Tyranitars should never be able to get hurt. Except by, like, poisoning or something.

If you have an indestructible body, good on ya. I can still punch you in the head enough times that you'll go unconscious. Which is not to say that it can't be pierced with any form of attacks, just the scientists haven't discovered any.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
If you have an indestructible body, good on ya. I can still punch you in the head enough times that you'll go unconscious.

No..... If my body is indestructible I don't care how many times you punch me in the head. It won't have any effect. It won't hurt. You have to do damage to knock someone unconscious. Indestructible means no damage. At all.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Which is not to say that it can't be pierced with any form of attacks, just the scientists haven't discovered any.

Really? What about Charizards fire? The Pokedex has found that Charizards fire can melt anything. The Pokedex has also found that Tyranitars body can't be harmed by any attack. So Charizards fire should be able to melt Tyranitars body... except it can't... because Tyranitar can't be hurt by any attack.

🙄

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

Why is it hyperbole?

If it happens within the canon of the series, it happens. I don't care if it's ridiculous or not. Unless Word of God is used, games>

You're idea of the Pokedex being a wikipedia huh? Considering the people editing that particular wiki are either scientists in the game who know more than you, or player characters, who still know more than you.

Considering there are few Pokemon games where you can actually see feats, claiming them is pretty much it. And the only reason to doubt the claims is not wanting to accept the feat. That is literally the only reason to doubt the Pokedex.

Because its exageration, "melt anything", "cant be harmed", "foes over the Horizen"

We dont know it actually happens, since at the moment its just a claim from the pokedex whos information already seems flawed. Look at it this way, its just a claim, if someone on this forum made a random claim they have to back it up,the pokedex is your backup but its also making claims which would be fine if they were not hyperbole/loose and possibly not fact. Theres a lot of doubt in it.

A lot of people who can edit a wiki also know more than me, that does not mean what they put there is fact or cannot possibly be wrong. Even someone who knows the field of pokemon, may be mistaken considering its still being studied, its not just a discovered and completed study with no more to add. Finally, such sources do not counter the fact the pokedex still has hyperbole so if its users can add info, lets say Ash he could put anything in, I dont trust Ash never to exaggerate.

Why would I not want to accept the feat? i care not for pokemon or MK, and the claimed feats so far have no effect on what I argue in other threads so its not a tactical choice. I simply have a long list of doubts like the other people argueing with you that the pokedex is not complte fact and to be take nas seriously as an on-screen shown feat, it can be updated by anyone it seems, through unkown practices and even then, folklore, hyperbole and loose general statements are abound.

Originally posted by TacDavey

Really? What about Charizards fire? The Pokedex has found that Charizards fire can melt anything. The Pokedex has also found that Tyranitars body can't be harmed by any attack. So Charizards fire should be able to melt Tyranitars body... except it can't... because Tyranitar can't be hurt by any attack.

🙄

This is a good example. The pokedex apprently belives in fallacies/fallacious statements.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Why are Blax and I the ones defending the Pokedex? Isn't that the LLLC's job or something?