^ He gets a slight nosebleed over controlling one guy like Guy Gardner. I don't think he's going for, or even requires, planetary-scale mental manipulation in this fight.
And even if he did need to push his limits, he is capable of using planetary-scale mental manipulation without hooking himself up to blood tanks as he was forced to do so by Captain Atom at the end of Justice League: Generation Lost. He survived it.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ He gets a slight nosebleed over controlling one guy like Guy Gardner. I don't think he's going for, or even requires, planetary-scale mental manipulation in this fight.And even if he did need to push his limits, he is capable of using planetary-scale mental manipulation without hooking himself up to blood tanks as he was forced to do so by Captain Atom at the end of Justice League: Generation Lost. He survived it.
The other three have planet level telepathy without hooking themselves to Cerebro. Xavier has intergalactic level telepathy on 3 or 4 occasions. Plus the Marvel telepaths operate on an Earth that hinders telepathic communication. This is how Xavier was able to communicate from Pluto to Earth when the X-Men were kidnapped by Deathbird and the Brood.
Xavier destroyed a few planets in the Microverse with his telepathy.
Actually scratch that Jean sans Phoenix is the only telepath who hasn't shown planet level telepathy feats but she's still no push over.
The other 3 have better finnese feats then Maxwell Lord. Also Emma and Charles fight durty.
Hammond and Black yes, Maxwell Lord with a limited blood supply isn't going to last very long against any of these 3.
^ I think there's an important distinction between scale and distance when using terms like "planetary" and "intergalactic." Maxwell Lord manipulated every single living beings' mind in the feat I was talking about. Professor X reached across the galaxy in the feat you were talking about.
I think the former is far more impressive than the latter. AFAIK, Professor X's best planetary-scale feats involve only scanning/gathering the feelings/emotions of an entire planet's beings, i.e., against Z'Nox and Galactus. Which I put a significant notch lower than actually manipulating every single mind.
What Maxwell Lord did was Sentry-level.
Frankly, I don't know enough about Hector Hammond's feats and Manchester Black's feats to discuss them. Manchester appeared to be a more telekinetic-based psionic. And while telekinesis can be immensely powerful, a more potent telepath should be able to bypass that, which everyone else in this thread strikes me as being.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I think there's an important distinction between scale and distance when using terms like "planetary" and "intergalactic." Maxwell Lord manipulated every single living beings' mind in the feat I was talking about. Professor X reached across the galaxy in the feat you were talking about.I think the former is far more impressive than the latter. AFAIK, Professor X's best planetary-scale feats involve only scanning/gathering the feelings/emotions of an entire planet's beings, i.e., against Z'Nox and Galactus. Which I put a significant notch lower than actually manipulating every single mind.
What Maxwell Lord did was Sentry-level.
During the Z'Nox invasion Xavier had to selectively filter out people performing surgery and those with mal-intent too. His wave was so powerful it reached across the Universe to the Sh'iar Empire to both Lilandra and D'kens telepath spies.
Are you referring to the mind-wipe? Mastermind used the Sentry's power to perform the global mind-wipe. It was Masterminds skill. Mastermind is no better then Emma or Xavier.
I wouldn't say a global mind wipe is more impressive then the Z'Nox or when he reached out to a world, turned their energies into a psionic spear and hit Ego the living planet with it in Maximum Security.
On average the Marvel telepaths even Jean Grey sans Phoenix have better feats then Maxwell Lord. 😬
Emma broke the Global Skrull Blockade manned by 7 Skrulls on Cerebra technology.
Jean sans Phoenix beat Gamemaster.
All 3 are well versed in Psi-combat. Maxwell isn't.
^ I am talking about raw power when referring to scale (and to a similar extent, finesse). Maxwell Lord didn't just wipe specific memories of every single being on DC Earth. When people would look at material records or computers, their mind would see something else completely.
And that's what Sentry's psionic powers did too. Kids wouldn't notice a poster of the Sentry on their wall, Spidey would look at a photo and not see Sentry in it.
In my opinion, Professor X gathering, then utilizing, the existing mental energies of a planet's inhabitants takes far less power than what Maxwell Lord and Sentry did to those planet's inhabitants. I don't think it's even close.
Originally posted by illadelph12In a battle between psionics, would it matter? If a telekinetic doesn't have the telepathic chops to contend with another telepath, telekinesis would sort of be worthless.
Wait, question:Is this a telepathic fight only? Or could Emma just walk over and punch Lord in the face or Jean use her TK to suffocate him?
You'd divert/shut them down as, or before, the telekinesis works its effects.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I am talking about raw power when referring to scale (and to a similar extent, finesse). Maxwell Lord didn't just wipe specific memories of every single being on DC Earth. When people would look at material records or computers, their mind would see something else completely.And that's what Sentry's psionic powers did too. Kids wouldn't notice a poster of the Sentry on their wall, Spidey would look at a photo and not see Sentry in it.
In my opinion, Professor X gathering, then utilizing, the mental energies of planets takes far less power than what Maxwell Lord and Sentry did to planets. I don't think it's even close. In a battle between psionics, would it matter? If a telekinetic doesn't have the telepathic chops to contend with another telepath, telekinesis would sort of be worthless.
The Sentry didn't perform that feat. It was Mastermind who used the Sentry to perform that feat. That's also not a complicated piece of telepathy skillwise Emma taught Rachel how to do that in seconds. He placed a mental block in the minds of everyone on the planet. I don't see how that's more complicated that filtering out each and every single person on the planet.
Also, I think it should be noted that Mentallo has a planetary level feat as well. As does Shadow King. When it comes to feats like these everyone "jobs".
Xavier has performed this kind of feat many times it's not just a once off. Maxwell Lords body overheats when he uses his powers and he loses a bunch of blood. There's no way he can maintain the kind of power for long. He also has very little combat feats against other telepaths.
Originally posted by ExodusCloakOk, let's push aside what Sentry did or didn't do, as it's besides the point. I don't see how picking and choosing among everyone's mental energy is anywhere near as complicated (or as powerful) as wiping away certain portions of everyone's memories and then permanently further screwing their perceptions so they don't even see what's right in front of them (or they see something else entirely).
The Sentry didn't perform that feat. It was Mastermind who used the Sentry to perform that feat. That's also not a complicated piece of telepathy skillwise Emma taught Rachel how to do that in seconds. He placed a mental block in the minds of everyone on the planet. I don't see how that's more complicated that filtering out each and every single person on the planet.
On the most basic level, Maxwell Lord had to filter out everybody who knew anything about him, target each person's specific memories, and further make it so that each person would permanently filter out their own perceptions going forward.
How is filtering out who has "happy" thoughts or "evil" thoughts anywhere near as complicated?
Originally posted by ExodusCloakWhat planetary scale feats do they have?
Also, I think it should be noted that Mentallo has a planetary level feat as well. As does Shadow King. When it comes to feats like these everyone "jobs".Xavier has performed this kind of feat many times it's not just a once off. Maxwell Lords body overheats when he uses his powers and he loses a bunch of blood. There's no way he can maintain the kind of power for long. He also has very little combat feats against other telepaths.
We've been discussing two of Xavier's planetary-scale feats, which was more a filtering and gathering of pre-existing mental energies. And I don't think Maxwell Lord needs to use his powers so drastically. He'd be focused on three people (powerful psionics to be sure). But not every single person (including the psionics!) in the world. I agree his combat feats are few, but when it comes to a person with built-in defenses, say a Green Lantern, he only gets a slight nosebleed.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[B]Ok, let's push aside what Sentry did or didn't do, as it's besides the point.
Here's the thing. It isn't that impressive unless you're saying Mastermind is more skilled then Charles Xavier. If Mastermind is skilled enough to do it then I would say Charles is too.
I don't see how picking and choosing among everyone's mental energy is anywhere near as complicated (or as powerful) as wiping away certain portions of everyone's memories and then permanently further screwing their perceptions so they don't even see what's right in front of them or seeing something else.
He's placing a mental block in the minds of people. It's not the same. It's how everyones memories of the Sentry came back after the block was broken. The memories weren't erased they were just blocked. Plus he was hooked up to a machine when he performed that feat and passed out afterwards.
On the most basic level, Maxwell Lord had to filter out everybody who knew anything about him, filter out each person's specific memories, and further make it so that each person would permanently filter out their own perceptions going forward.
He put a block on his name on everyones persons thoughts. The Cuckoos did that too. Xavier, Emma not even Phoenix no one could ask or would think to ask the question "Where did they come from?".
Xavier and Emma had to sort through and wipe out a lifetime of memories from 200 mutants after Age of X.
How is filtering out who has good thoughts or bad thoughts anywhere near as complicated? What planetary scale feats do they have?
He had to scan each person, see what they're doing and exclude them. All Maxwell Lord had to do was place a block on his name in the minds of everyone.
Shadow King took down every single psi-talent (Spider-Man, Strange, Bianca) in the Universe with his trap.
He then seized the minds of every person on Earth.
Mentallo amped his power and bypassed everyone on Earths defenses barring IronMans.
We've been discussing two of Xavier's planetary-scale feats, which was more a filtering and gathering of pre-existing mental energies. And I don't think Maxwell Lord needs to use his powers so drastically. He'd be focused on three people (powerful psionics to be sure). But not every single person (including the psionics!) in the world. I agree his combat feats are few, but when it comes to a person with built-in defenses, say a Green Lantern, he only gets a slight nosebleed.
We're discussing 3 of Xavier's feats.
Xavier probes the mind of Ego the Living Planet. He experiences Ego's memories "a pain that no sane mind could withstand" but endures, to reach the conclusion that there's no reasoning with it. He calls one of his Cadre K students and informs him of a plan to attack Ego with a massive amount of psychic energy. He reaches his mind across the void of space to the planet Selandiar and "whether diplomat or soldier, scientist or servant -- he harvests their psychic strength." He combines the mental energy of the entire planet's population and directs it to Zcann who shapes the energy into a psychic lance and pierces it into Ego's mind.
A Green Lantern can't fight back telepathically. The other 3 will push back. The amount of energy expelled during Exodus and Charles Xaviers fight was enormous. Maxwell will require more energy he'll bleed/burn out.
Originally posted by ExodusCloakIt's not beyond his powers if he's using Sentry's psionic powers. I believe it's outside Xavier's own personal demonstrated ability to do so.
Here's the thing. It isn't unless you're saying Mastermind is more skilled then Charles Xavier. The point I was trying to make was that placing a block in the minds of everyone on Earth isn't out of Xaviers depth if it was Masterminds mind guiding the Sentry's powers.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak... he placed a mental block on everyone else's memories concerning anything about Maxwell Lord, changed everyone's related memories (so that Blue Beetle killed himself, rather than some unidentified person killed Blue Beetle) and manipulated everyone's perceptions going forward about anything that had to do with Maxwell Lord.
He's placing a mental block on himself. Plus he was hooked up to a machine when he performed that feat and passed out afterwards.
When Maxwell Lord restored everybody's memories and undid the perception manipulation, he wasn't hooked up to anything. And he survived and he didn't pass out. He can do these feats without prep.
Originally posted by ExodusCloakSince when did the Cuckoos put a block on Marvel Earth's pre-existing memories and made it so that a picture of the Stepford Cuckoos ended up looking like a picture of three redheaded guys? They obviously see the Stepford Cuckoos. Nobody could even see Maxwell Lord.
He put a block on his name on everyones persons thoughts. The Cuckoos did that too. Xavier, Emma not even Phoenix no one could ask or would think to ask the question "Where did they come from?".Xavier and Emma had to sort through and wipe out a lifetime of memories from 200 mutants after Age of X.
How is a combined feat over 200 mutants even closely comparable to a single-handed feat over 6 billion+ people?!
Originally posted by ExodusCloakIt was far more than that. People saw a picture of Maxwell Lord and they'd see something else entirely. It wasn't like, I see his picture, I just can't remember who that is.
He had to scan each person, see what they're doing and exclude them. All Maxwell Lord placed a block on his name in the minds of everyone.Shadow King took down every single psi-talent in the Universe with his trap.
He then seized the minds of every person on Earth.
Mentallo amped his power and bypassed everyone on Earths defenses barring IronMans.
What trap? The universe... ?
Seized? With what?
Bypassed what? What did he do once he bypassed them? Maxwell Lord bypassed every single persons' defenses, including mechanical, magical and psionic-based defense to do what he did.
Originally posted by ExodusCloakIf Xavier has better ones, let me know. Because the ones we're talking about are, in my opinion, clearly inferior to Maxwell Lord's.
We're discussing 3 of Xavier's feats.A Green Lantern can't find back telepathically. The other 3 will push back. Maxwell will expell will require more energy he'll bleed/burn out.
Green Lantern's have spotty telepathic defenses, that's true enough. But considering that nobody on team two has ever matched the scale and power output that Maxwell Lord exhibited, I don't see how Maxwell Lord wants for power.
