Hector Hammond, Manchester Black & Maxwell Lord vs. Prof X, Jean Grey & Emma Frost

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's not beyond his powers if he's using Sentry's psionic powers. I believe it's outside Xavier's own personal demonstrated ability to do so. ...

I was talking in terms of skill. I don't believe that shows Maxwell Lord as more skilled then Xavier. In the Marvel Universe skill trumps power. I also don't believe Maxwell Lord has demonstrated that he has that power on his average showings.

he placed a mental block on everyone else's memories concerning anything about Maxwell Lord, changed everyone's related memories (so that Blue Beetle killed himself, rather than some unidentified person killed Blue Beetle) and manipulated everyone's perceptions going forward about anything that had to do with Maxwell Lord.

The mental block already prevents people from knowing anything about him going forward. He didn't actively monitor some random persons thoughts at every waking second of the day.

When Maxwell Lord restored everybody's memories and undid the perception manipulation, he wasn't hooked up to anything. And he survived and he didn't pass out. He can do these feats without prep. Since when did the Cuckoos put a block on Marvel Earth's pre-existing memories and made it so that a picture of the Stepford Cuckoos ended up looking like a picture of three redheaded guys? They obviously see the Stepford Cuckoos. Nobody could even see Maxwell Lord.

That tells us that it was less of a strain to remove the block then to place it.

Nobody could see Maxwell because he put a blockade it's not as if he was actively manipulating their minds every second of the day. It's the same technique the Cuckoos used on everyone they encountered. They put a block on every single persons mind they encountered so that no one would ask where they came from. It's a block. They're not monitoring everyone at every waking moment of the day.

How is a combined feat of 200 mutants even close to a single-handed feat on 6 billion+ people?! It was far more than that. People saw a picture of Maxwell Lord and they'd see something else entirely. It wasn't like, I see his picture, I just can't remember who that is.

Sifting through a lifetime of information, seperating the thoughts of both lifetimes and deleting the alternate universe lifetime requires more skill then putting a mental block on something. 😬 I'm not talking about the scale here I'm talking about the skill.

Actually that's exactly what is it. You're mind is blocked so that you don't even think to ask who the person is in the picture. You don't even notice picture that's what a mental block is. That's what happened to the Sentry.

What trap? The universe... ?

Seized? With what?

Psi-War, he created a trap that, that idiot Psylocke triggered, it casacading...trillions of thoughts and everyone in the Universe 616 lost their psi-talents for a few days.

After trouncing Psylocke on the Astral Plane he reached out and mentally seized every single mind on the planet.

Bypassed what? What did he do once he bypassed them? Maxwell Lord bypassed every single persons' defenses, including mechanical, magical and psionic-based defense to do what he did. If Xavier has better ones, let me know. Because the ones we're talking about are, in my opinion, clearly inferior to Maxwell Lord's.

He could access every single person mind on the planet. That was precisely my point. When it comes to feats like that everyone on the Earth "jobs" even to a unskilled telepath like Mentallo.

Green Lantern's have spotty telepathic defenses. Considering that nobody on team two has ever matched the scale and power output that Maxwell Lord performed, I don't see how Maxwell Lord wants for power. [/B]

The Dreamers in Secret Invasion were powerful. Seven telepaths each boosted by their own Cerebra preventing all telepathic communication across the globe. Emma's astral self was dislodged from her body. She then took down all seven. It's not about power. It's about skill.

Like Xavier destroyed a planet in the Microverse with his telepathy. In fact with a click of his fingers he destroyed two. Boosted by Cerebro he was going to destroy the Microverse.

You can't base this entire fight on just one feat.

Hammond's TK is the strongest of the bunch. He'd just turn them inside out.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I was talking in terms of skill. I don't believe that shows Maxwell Lord as more skilled then Xavier. In the Marvel Universe skill trumps power. I also don't believe Maxwell Lord has demonstrated that he has that power on his average showings.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The mental block already prevents people from knowing anything about him going forward. He didn't actively monitor some random persons thoughts at every waking second of the day.

That tells us that it was less of a strain to remove the block then to place it.

Nobody could see Maxwell because he put a blockade it's not as if he was actively manipulating their minds every second of the day. It's the same technique the Cuckoos used on everyone they encountered. They put a block on every single persons mind they encountered so that no one would ask where they came from. It's a block. They're not monitoring everyone at every waking moment of the day.

Somewhat presumptuous that it was less a strain. When trying to remove the effects of Maxwell Lord's power on a single person (Superman), Martian Manhunter completely failed.

It's not the same technique the Stepford Cuckoos did. The Stepford Cuckoos forced mental suggestions on the X-Men so that nobody would ask about their origins. That's it. A Maxwell Lord-scale equivalent would be if (i) the Stepford Cuckoos wiped any and all memories of the Stepford Cuckoos, (ii) changed any and all related memories of the Stepford Cuckoos, (iii) made it so that nobody could perceive the Stepford Cuckoos even when looking at them or a picture of them, (iv) did it to the whole planet (including every single psionic) simultaneously, and (v) and one Stepford Cuckoo did it alone. I'm flabbergasted that you don't recognize the obvious distinctions here.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Sifting through a lifetime of information, seperating the thoughts of both lifetimes and deleting the alternate universe lifetime requires more skill then putting a mental block on something. 😬 I'm not talking about the scale here I'm talking about the skill.

Actually that's exactly what is it. You're mind is blocked so that you don't even think to ask who the person is in the picture. You don't even notice picture that's what a mental block is. That's what happened to the Sentry.

Not all mental blocks are the same. I can mentally block you from thinking to ask a question (all the Stepford Cuckoos did). I can also mentally block you from remembering any memory you had related to the question, remembering differently every past event related to that question, have somebody present that question to your face and think it's something else entirely forever. That's what Maxwell Lord proved capable of, that's what Sentry's power proved capable of. Nobody else here can say the same.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Psi-War, he created a trap that, that idiot Psylocke triggered, it casacading...trillions of thoughts and everyone in the Universe 616 lost their psi-talents for a few days.

After trouncing Psylocke on the Astral Plane he reached out and mentally seized every single mind on the planet.

He could access every single person mind on the planet. That was precisely my point. When it comes to feats like that everyone on the Earth "jobs" even to a unskilled telepath like Mentallo.

The Dreamers in Secret Invasion were powerful. Seven telepaths each boosted by their own Cerebra preventing all telepathic communication. Emma's astral self was dislodged from her body. She then took down all seven. It's not about power.

Mentallo didn't mind-f@ck everyone on the planet with his own independent power. Neither did the Stepford Cuckoos. Neither did Xavier. Neither did Shadow King. Maxwell Lord did. Mastermind made Sentry do the same.

I'm talking power. Even if you want to discredit the finesse required, Xavier, Frost and Jean have never demonstrated the pure power Maxwell Lord did.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Hammond's TK is the strongest of the bunch. He'd just turn them inside out.

The likeliness of him deploying any of his extra powers before they are shifted onto the Astral Plane.

Has Hammond demonstrated the ability to fight on the Astral Plane and use his TK?

Exodus has on one occasion against Xavier. On the other occassion against Emma he was unable to.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes, well I've been talking about power the entire time. And based on high feats, Maxwell Lord appears to trump Xavier. You're not stating anything different than what I already explained. Nobody we've discussed (barring Sentry) has the raw psionic power to impose a mental block like Maxwell Lord did.

Power means nothing without skill. Ask Rachel and Nate Grey pre-Shaman.

And I'm still unconvinced that you can make an argument that Maxwell Lord is that powerful on average when his past showings are no where near to that level of power.

This forum works on average showings. Not one high feat.

Somewhat presumptuous that it was less a strain. When trying to remove the effects of Maxwell Lord's power on a single person (Superman), Martian Manhunter completely failed.

Are you refering to the time when he controlled Superman? That took years of prep to do that. And he needed to sink his claws in deep.

It's not the same technique the Stepford Cuckoos did. The Stepford Cuckoos forced mental suggestions on the X-Men so that nobody would ask about their origins. That's it. A Maxwell Lord-scale equivalent would be if (i) the Stepford Cuckoos wiped any and all memories of the Stepford Cuckoos, (ii) changed any and all related memories of the Stepford Cuckoos, (iii) made it so that nobody could perceive the Stepford Cuckoos even when looking at them or a picture of them, and (iv) did it to the whole planet (including every single psionic) simultaneously. I'm flabbergasted that you don't recognize the obvious distinctions here. I'm talking about power. And what Maxwell Lord did was so much more superior when it came to power and skill.

The Cuckoos placed a block it was described as a block not as a mental suggestion.
Maxwell did not erase those memories. He blocked them. If he erased them they wouldn't be there when he unblocked them.

Your (iii) is just a mental block.

It's no more impressive then Xavier scanning each and every person mind on the planet. In fact it's less impressive. Xavier had to see what each person was doing.

Maxwell only had to put a block on his image and his name in the average persons mind. He only had to alter the memories of those that knew him on a personal level and those who knew how Blue Beetle died, for them he altered memories. But those are a select few.

Not all mental blocks are the same. I can mentally block you from thinking to ask a question (all the Stepford Cuckoos did). I can also mentally block you from remembering any memory you had related to the question, remembering differently every past event related to that question, have somebody present that question to your face and think it's something else entirely forever. That's what Maxwell Lord proved capable of, that's what Sentry's power proved capable of. Nobody here can say the same. These Shadow King feats involve manipulating the Astral Plane? A pre-existing source of energy?

There's nothing impressive skillwise about that mental block. He blocked his image and name from peoples mind. It's like being colour blind to Maxwell Lord.

Shadow King's trap was a seperate feat to mentally seizing everyone's mind on the planet. He only got rid of the telepaths so he wouldn't be bothered when he seized everyones mind. That was under his own power. Xavier has beaten Shadow King.

Gamemaster is linked to everyone in the world IRRC. Jean sans Phoenix has beat him on the astral plane.

Mentallo didn't mind-f@ck everyone on the planet with his own independent power. Neither did the Stepford Cuckoos. Neither did Xavier. Neither did Shadow King. Maxwell Lord did. Mastermind made Sentry do the same.

Mentallo bypassed everyones psi-defenses. I was using that feat to point out how it was story provoked and well beyond mentallo's abilities skillwise.

God Like Cable was monitoring everyone person thoughts on the planet. But he's skilled too. What he was doing was more impressive then Mentallo.

I'm talking power. Even if you want to discredit the finesse required, Xavier, Frost and Jean have never demonstrated the pure power Maxwell Lord did. [/B]

Except Xavier has power feats. Linking up 6 billion people and filtering them is no less impressive then placing a block in 6 billion people and altering the memories of the few 100's of people who knew him on a personal level.

And again skill trumps power which all 3 of them have in buckets.

^ The focus on "one high feat" is a deflection. None of the team 2 telepaths have demonstrated the raw psionic power which Maxwell Lord has demonstrated.

And that's all I'm interested in pointing out and proving.

I'm not getting into red herring arguments about power vs. skill. Meritorious as such arguments are, they have nothing to do with the observation I've made: Maxwell Lord has demonstrated greater raw personal psionic power than Xavier or Frost or Jean.

The attempts at conflating everything Maxwell Lord did (the sheer scale, the instantaneous nature, the various effects, the perpetual nature of it) as just being a simple mental block is an unwarranted simplification at best, an utterly misleading characterization at worst.

And as I understand it, Shadow King utilized the Astral Plane for each of the feats you've cited. Maxwell Lord had no convenient buffer in place to access DC Earth's population mentally. He had to do it directly. And Xavier recognizing who has "happy" thoughts and "naughty" thoughts among Marvel Earth's population in no way approaches Maxwell Lord's manipulation of all of DC Earth's population. The effect wasn't localized to a few hundred people. It affected everyone. Pretty much everybody in the world saw Wonder Woman snapping Maxwell Lord's neck due to Brother Eye. Anybody who didn't was still affected in that if they were presented a newspaper detailing the story, they still wouldn't be able to perceive it.

So far, nothing described trumps the sheer psionic power Maxwell Lord personally held and exhibited. Nothing. We're obviously disagreeing but I'm at a complete loss as to why you're arguing otherwise. It's clear as day.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak The likeliness of him deploying any of his extra powers before they are shifted onto the Astral Plane. Has Hammond demonstrated the ability to fight on the Astral Plane and use his TK? Exodus has on one occasion against Xavier. On the other occassion against Emma he was unable to.

hammond would likely be powerful enough to deny the battle on the astral plane.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ The focus on "one high feat" is a deflection. None of the team 2 telepaths have demonstrated the raw psionic power which Maxwell Lord has demonstrated.

And that's all I'm interested in pointing out and proving.

I'm not getting into red herring arguments about power vs. skill. Meritorious as such arguments are, they have nothing to do with the observation I've made: Maxwell Lord has demonstrated greater raw personal psionic power than Xavier or Frost or Jean.

Xavier power is so great his subconscious escaped into the microverse and shattered planets with ease.

This is without Cerebro.

This is him amped...from Planets to solar systems.

This is what I meant by using one high feat. Xavier has power to shatter planets with ease without an amp.

And as I understand it, Shadow King utilized the Astral Plane for each of the feats you've cited. Maxwell Lord had no convenient buffer in place to access DC Earth's population mentally. He had to do it directly.

The first feat was with the use of the Astral Plane. The second one where he seized everyones mind was not he had to reach out and do that. The Astral Plane is made of every living this mental energy. Theres nothing suggested in the story that it's easier to link up with people through the astral plane. If anything Psi-War proves that every psi-talent uses the Astral Plane anyway when they use their powers.

And Xavier recognizing who has "happy" thoughts and "naughty" thoughts among Marvel Earth's population in no way approaches Maxwell Lord's manipulation of all of DC Earth's population.

That is a simplification of what Xavier did. He had to check out what each and every person was doing at the moment. Scan each and every one of them to see that they weren't flying a plane or performing surgery etc.

So far, nothing described trumps the sheer psionic power Maxwell Lord personally held and exhibited. Nothing. We're obviously disagreeing but I'm at a complete loss as to why you're arguing otherwise. It's clear as day. [/B]

Providing enough energy to shatter a planet surpasses it. Amped by a 1.0 version of Cerebro he was energy output was enough to wreck planets. And that was not him at full power too. That was his subconcious. His power was split between himself and his dark self. Xavier received multiple upgrades since the 1980's too.

Between Black and Lord, Team 1 outclass Team 2 in everything they can bring, from telepathy to telekinesis.

With Hammond added in, they stomp.

^ What tk feats of Manchester's outclass Jean's?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Xavier power is so great his subconscious escaped into the microverse and shattered planets with ease.

This is without Cerebro.

This is him amped...from Planets to solar systems.

This is what I meant by using one high feat. Xavier has power to shatter planets with ease without an amp.

There may not be numerosity to Maxwell Lord's feats, but that doesn't strip them of their magnitude when no evidence exists to debunk them. His appearances as a super-villain are few, and when forced, he repeated his planetary-scale telepathy. This "one high feat" discourse is a red herring and a mischaracterization.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The first feat was with the use of the Astral Plane. The second one where he seized everyones mind was not he had to reach out and do that. The Astral Plane is made of every living this mental energy. Theres nothing suggested in the story that it's easier to link up with people through the astral plane. If anything Psi-War proves that every psi-talent uses the Astral Plane anyway when they use their powers.

That is a simplification of what Xavier did. He had to check out what each and every person was doing at the moment. Scan each and every one of them to see that they weren't flying a plane or performing surgery etc.

Simplification? So is your Maxwell Lord just used a mental block assertion. Maxwell Lord had to cover up all memories of him, had to create new memories for events which involved him and other people (like Blue Beetle killing himself instead fo Max doing it), and make it so that moving forward, people still couldn't perceive him or even recognize records of him.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Providing enough energy to shatter a planet surpasses it. Amped by a 1.0 version of Cerebro he was energy output was enough to wreck planets. And that was not him at full power too. That was his subconcious. His power was split between himself and his dark self. Xavier received multiple upgrades since the 1980's too.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[B] This is what I call justifying my request for context. That's the Microverse. You can't possibly think that, by any stretch of the imagination, a bloodlusted Xavier can use his telepathy to break real planets in the universe to pieces as effortlessly as it takes to snap his fingers.

Actually that is exacty what it is. The microverse isn't a shrunk down universe. If I was trying to pull a fast one I would have left that out. It's actually stated in the issue that Xavier is as powerful in both Universes. The only difference is on 616 Earth Xavier effects the mental plane while in the microverse he can effect the physical plane.
Because you were taking about raw power, I just wanted to point out a power feat. That is still a justifiable raw power feat. All that physical energy that blew up a planet is all Xavier's it's just physical in the mircoverse.

I'm speaking in terms of raw energy output. Whether it's effects the physical or mental plane the energy output is the same.

There may not be numerosity to Maxwell Lord's feats, but that doesn't strip them of their magnitude when no evidence exists to debunk them. His appearances as a super-villain are few, and when forced, he repeated his planetary-scale telepathy. This "one high feat" discourse is a red herring and a mischaracterization. Pretty sure the second feat involved the Astral Plane also. And yes, the Astral Plane is a convenient and potent medium which telepaths utilize.

He's had nosebleeds from less. I wouldn't be contesting it if that wasn't the case.

And that's not exactly what the Astral Plane is. Psi-War proved that all telepaths require the Astral Plane to utilize their powers. Without it they're not able to. All telepaths and Spider-Man access it when they use their powers.

Simplification? So is your Maxwell Lord just used a mental block assertion. Maxwell Lord had to cover up all memories of him, had to create new memories for events which involved him and other people (like Blue Beetle killing himself instead fo Max doing it), and make it so that moving forward, people still couldn't perceive him or even recognize records of him.

Xavier's microverse feat in terms of enery output is far, far greater then Lords feat. If we're going by one-off feats.

Secondly, Xavier's Z'Nox wave was felt across the 616 Universe all the way to the other side of it (The Shi'ar) empire where it alerted D'Kens telepaths. The fact that it was able to move across the Universe also illustrates the sheer magnitude of the Z'Nox feat in terms of raw psionic energy. There's no way 'round that either. You can talk about range vs. magnitude...but if you're talking raw psionic energy then surely the fact that it unintentionally made it all the way to the Shi'ar empire proves that it was a pretty potent feat.

Here they describe it as a burst of power that bridged the gap between him and Lilandra as well as alerted D'Kens telepathic spies.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/43/16295942.jpg/

Microverse.

See above.

Xavier's has a huge energy output, enough to shatter a planet with a click of a finger.

^ I doubt you believe that yourself.

Xavier does not have enough telepathic power to destroy planets as easy as snapping his fingers. I think it's unreasonable to ignore how differently Xavier's telepathy manifested in the Microverse.

Frankly, that claim just doesn't merit anymore serious discussion.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I doubt you believe that yourself.

Xavier does not have enough telepathic power to destroy planets as easy as snapping his fingers. I think it's unreasonable to ignore how differently Xavier's telepathy manifested in the Microverse.

Frankly, that claim just doesn't merit anymore serious discussion.

I should rephrase. The energy output Xavier produced in that feat was equivalent to the amount of energy needed to destroy a planet with the snap of his fingers.

The only difference is that in the microverse the energy can effect the physical plane.

But the energy output is the same...and he produced that much energy with ease.