The amount of abuse the Razor has taken in this thread is painful. One time we see Sidious using giant penisfocus crystal to make Jedi feel more scared at night and install more nightlights in the halls of the temple.
We never see him use the giant focus crystal again for anything. Did he use artifacts in the future? Probably, he collected a shitton of Force junk, but unless someone can correlate that to a specific showing, it just means that Palps probably had access to a lot of fancy sexForce toys.
Originally posted by Nephthys
But if you were trying to kill your neighbour, just as Palpatine is trying to blunt the Jedi's force perceptions, youd use the gun, just as he'd use help, because its the easiest and best way to do it and you probably couldn't do it without the guns help.riiiiiiiiight?
But the crystal was only said to be used for increasing jedi anxiety and nothing else. We can't assume that just because the crystal was necessary for one thing means it's necessary for all things. We do not even know if the crystal can be used for anything else other that what was shown. So far, it's only exclusive to one feat until proven otherwise.
S66
But the crystal was only said to be used for increasing jedi anxiety and nothing else. We can't assume that just because the crystal was necessary for one thing means it's necessary for all things. We do not even know if the crystal can be used for anything else other that what was shown. So far, it's only exclusive to one feat until proven otherwise.
Excellent, my friend. Excellent. You have do[ne] what must be done. excellent
Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
Borbarad is confusing two fundamentally different phenomena and assuming they are one and the same.
Gideon SlightlyFlaccid graces us with another of his straw man arguments. Fundamentally different phenomena? Let me check.
We assume that Sidious, unaided, with nothing but his own power, is capable of supressing the force connections of all Jedi Knights and do this across the Galaxy. I would be honored, if somebody could present some proof for this, because, as we know, the effect was already in place a century before Sidious birth, so it appears kind of suspecious to assume that Sidious was responsible for it? Oh, well. Gideon, of course, has delivered "proof" for this assumption, correct?
No. Sorry. Even in his twelve page fanboy wankery on his favorite character, all we get from Gideon is this:
"Darth Sidious was able to—from the planet of Coruscant, home of the Jedi Order—manipulate the Force on such a level that it diminished the connection, senses, and capabilities of ten thousand Jedi Knights for thirteen years in what is truly an unparalleled display of control over the Force." - Gideon, source
With all of his ingeniousity dedicated to making Sidious look good, Gideon hasn't found proof for this statement, and has to site "Sithisis" (big surprise there) for Sidious ability to influence the Jedi on a galactic scale. Of course, Gideon did "forget" to mention the focus crystal Sidious used, because it is such a minor detail. 😉
But let us believe in Gideons baseless speculation for a split second, and assume that Sidious is capable of influencing the force connection of the Jedi using nothing but his own power. Why exactly would he need to utilize the focus crystal to influence their feelings? You have amassed all this power, and demonstrate it constantly, yet, rather than using it, you will waste a - probable precious - Sith artifact and engage in a fight with some Sithspawn? That totally makes sense. 🙄
Much like Gideon's ingenious justification for that here:
Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
I'd say it would, actually, be pretty stupid of Palpatine to frequently make use of Sith focusing crystals.
Really? The guy that - according to Gideon - is capable of constantly surpressing the Jedi's ability to use the force on a galaxy wide scale, can't use focus crystals to do this exactly or capitalize further on the Jedi's diminished abilities (caused by himself), because they will find him? I wonder why his frequent galaxy scale force use to diminish their force connection didn't lead them right to Sidious? 🙄
@Galen007
Originally posted by Galan007
Skewed logic.Per this line of thinking, we can assume that every Jedi/Sith in the history of the order used artifacts to increase their power. After all, there's no proof that they didn't, right?
And you lecture people on "scewed logic"? Funny.
No, you can not assume, that every Sith and Jedi used artifacts to increase their power. You can do this with persons that have done so (e.g. Sidious).
This was the common modus operandi here, when dealing with the Ancient Sith. They must be useless without their gimmicks, because they utilized them. Now, when this is turned against the same people, who have used this kind of reasoning against the Ancients, it is suddenly wrong? Talk about double-standards.
Also, you may want to check the sources. There is not a single hint of Sidious manipulating anything actively on a galactic scale, with "Sithisis" being the only exception. And, ups, he uses a focus crystal to do the job. One with a far greater size than the one in Sadow's ship that, supposely, enabled play ping-pong with stars.
Combine that with Sidious relative helplessness when confronting Yoda and Mace (two of the "ten thousand Jedi" he supposely manipulated on a galactic level for thirteen years), and it's painfully obvious, that he - on his own and without aid - wasn't anywhere near powerful enough to do anything like that.
Do you seriously not see that?
Originally posted by BorbaradSo because we saw Palpatine utilize a crystal once to induce anxiety throughout the systems, it means he must have used crystals on other occasions, even though there is absolutely no proof of him doing so? What an interesting line of 'logic'.
You can do this with persons that have done so (e.g. Sidious).
Is there even proof that he had more than just one focusing crystal? Proof, not opinion.
Borbarad
Fundamentally different phenomena?
Gideon's essay
The comic Sithisis depicts Palpatine “[conducting] Sith rituals on Coruscant that radiated unnerving ripples in the Force, which caused anxiety among most Jedi throughout the galaxy, but also served to increase Anakin Skywalker’s hunger for power” (The Ultimate Visual Guide)
No mention of weakening Jedi sensitivity to the Force here. But, then again, I'm hardly the interpreter you are. 😂
Borbarad
We assume that Sidious, unaided, with nothing but his own power, is capable of supressing the force connections of all Jedi Knights and do this across the Galaxy. I would be honored, if somebody could present some proof for this,
Gideon's essay
Lastly, Palpatine is directly attributed to the darkness within the Force in the Revenge of the Sith novelization. The book makes constant references to Palpatine the man as “a shadow” and, prior to his duel with Mace Windu, the novelization notes that: “The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor’s office; it was the darkness. Wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow could send perception.”
👆
Borbarad
the effect was already in place a century before Sidious birth, so it appears kind of suspecious to assume that Sidious was responsible for it?
I don't have my copy of LoE on hand, would you mind posting the full quote? (If that's what you're referring to.)Never mind, I searched here and found it.
Gideon
No, no. "For two hundred years before the coming of Darth Sidious, the power of the dark side had been gaining strength." -- Labyrinth of Evil, pg. 133.The dark side merely gaining in strength does not mean that the Force was out of balance at the time.
Borbarad
Why exactly would he need to utilize the focus crystal to influence their feelings? You have amassed all this power, and demonstrate it constantly, yet, rather than using it, you will waste a - probable precious - Sith artifact and engage in a fight with some Sithspawn?
And I'm the one with the strawman, eh? 😂
edited for accuracy
Forgot about this part,
Borbarad
Really? The guy that - according to Gideon - is capable of constantly surpressing the Jedi's ability to use the force on a galaxy wide scale, can't use focus crystals to do this exactly or capitalize further on the Jedi's diminished abilities (caused by himself), because they will find him? I wonder why his frequent galaxy scale force use to diminish their force connection didn't lead them right to Sidious? 🙄
Spoiler:
Because Palpatine can shield his presence in the Force with the Quey'tek technique.
Originally posted by Galan007
So because we saw Palpatine utilize a crystal once to induce anxiety throughout the systems, it means he must have used crystals on other occasions, even though there is absolutely no proof of him doing so? What an interesting line of 'logic'.Is there even proof that he had more than just one focusing crystal? Proof, not opinion.
Where exactly was his galactic scale influencing ability when he confronted Mace and Yoda? He can diminish the abilities of ten-thousand Jedi across the Galaxy without aid, but can't do it to one single being right in front of him? That is a great line of 'logic'.
@MyFavoriteSock
Originally posted by SlightlyFlaccid
No mention of weakening Jedi sensitivity to the Force here. But, then again, I'm hardly the interpreter you are. 😂
That was the point: There is no mention of Sidious actively weakning the Jedi sensitivity to the force anywhere. 🙂
👆
Cool. So you wanna tell the audience, that Sidious being compared with the darkness in the office (by a person within the story) means that he has actively caused the weakning of the Jedi sensitivity to the force? Great "proof", Gideon. 🙄
Especially, when we consider his inability to use this against Mace or Yoda, where such an ability would have come in handy.
I don't have my copy of LoE on hand, would you mind posting the full quote? (If that's what you're referring to.)Never mind, I searched here and found it.[...]
The dark side merely gaining in strength does not mean that the Force was out of balance at the time.
The mere existance of a Sith Lord is what makes the force go out of balance, Gideon. Not any force power they use. Or, in Lucas words:
"Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..." - George Lucas, Introduction Documentary to ANH Special Edition
This is why LoE says that the Dark Side was getting stronger 200 years ago. It had always been present and causing the lack of balance in the force. Otherwise the entire prophecy of the Chosen One (bringing balance) wouldn't make any sense.
And I'm the one with the strawman, eh? 😂
No. You're a victim of confirmation bias, that tries to attribute non-existant feats to his favorite character in order to proof his own opinion right. 🙂
Because Palpatine can shield his presence in the Force with the Quey'tek technique.
Where is the point, Gideon? He did hide a focus crystal (why would they even need hiding in the first place - they aren't dark side in nature, are they?), used it and remained unnoticed by the Jedi. Why shouldn't he be able to do that again at any given point in time?
Of course I'm your favorite. One doesn't need a Sith focusing crystal to detect that level of sexual attraction. vin
Borbarad
That was the point: There is no mention of Sidious actively weakning the Jedi sensitivity to the force anywhere.
😐
No, the point was that no source supports the notion that Palpatine used the focusing crystal to blunt Jedi sensitivity; it was only ever used to increase their anxiety and Anakin's bloodlust. You, naturally, are assuming facts not in evidence.
Borbarad
Cool. So you wanna tell the audience, that Sidious being compared with the darkness in the office (by a person within the story) means that he has actively caused the weakning of the Jedi sensitivity to the force? Great "proof", Gideon.
IGideon and others have done so, elsewhere, and though I'm fairly certain you've read the posts, I suppose I'll go ahead and fetch them since you can't overcome your lethargy! ahuh
Borbarad
Especially, when we consider his inability to use this against Mace or Yoda, where such an ability would have come in handy.
?
How would the ability to stifle aspects of their metaphysical sight aid him in combat? The Jedi's precognition in combat has never been shown to suffer throughout the prequels and was never said to be affected by Palpatine.
Borborad
The mere existance of a Sith Lord is what makes the force go out of balance, Gideon. Not any force power they use.
Borbarad
This is why LoE says that the Dark Side was getting stronger 200 years ago. It had always been present and causing the lack of balance in the force. Otherwise the entire prophecy of the Chosen One (bringing balance) wouldn't make any sense.
I'll clarify, since these two terms are being used incorrectly. That the Force is out of balance doesn't equate to Jedi senses being blunted. That the dark side was gaining strength doesn't mean that the Jedi's senses were compromised in any way until Palpatine came along and began his efforts.
Borbarad
No. You're a victim of confirmation bias, that tries to attribute non-existant feats to his favorite character in order to proof his own opinion right.
Perhaps.
On the other hand, we have a self-proclaimed Devil's Advocate who suspiciously doesn't behave like one. I've always wondered, if all you really were trying to do is argue against what you perceive to be dogma, why is it that you've never directed your nigh-omniscient intellect against promotion of ancient Sith supremacy? I mean, it's not like Janus and co. were never guilty of dogmatic behavior. Curious that it slipped past your radar. mmm
Naturally, you're never inclined to answer the tough questions and you'll, predictably, repeat the mantra of "red herring!" but I am onto you nonetheless. excellent
Borbarad
Where is the point, Gideon? He did hide a focus crystal (why would they even need hiding in the first place - they aren't dark side in nature, are they?), used it and remained unnoticed by the Jedi. Why shouldn't he be able to do that again at any given point in time?
Objects and locations can have Force alignment based on association with various Force sects. A Sith focusing crystal would naturally reverberate with the dark side, would it not? A device that focuses an abundance of power would logically be detectable by hundreds of Jedi, yes?
Let me find that stuff for you.
RE: Palpatine as the source of the dark side shroud
Note: This RagingBoner fella seems pretty sharp and certainly did his homework.
RagingBoner
The shroud of the dark sideFor the purposes of this essay, the shroud of the dark side refers to the phenomenon within the Force that clouded the perception of the Jedi order during the final years of the Old Republic. It was first mentioned in Attack of the Clones, where Mace Windu suggests to Yoda that the time has come to inform the Senate that the Jedi’s “ability to use the Force has diminished”; it is then named at the end of the film, where Yoda intones that “the shroud of the dark side has fallen—begun the Clone War has.” The shroud is hardly ever mentioned within the films again, but references can be found within the Expanded Universe and novelizations. The official Star Wars website’s databank offers two separate insights into the shroud’s affects, first from Mace Windu’s entry:
Something was clouding the future, and the order's very connection to the Force was weakening. That a Sith Lord existed somewhere in the galaxy, was not in doubt but could this shadowy villain really bring this much imbalance to the Force?
And then from the Jedi order’s entry:
The Clone Wars were a trying time for the Jedi. They transformed from an order of peacekeepers to military commanders, serving as battlefield generals for the Republic's new clone army. [b]With their perception so focused on the war and so clouded by the pall of the dark side
, the Jedi failed to see the truth: that the Sith were the masterminds behind the conflict.The shroud of the dark side was extraordinary in its scope and scale. The Complete Visual Dictionary (pg. 12) states that “Jedi numbers dwindled to a mere ten thousand,” during the time of the films and the Clone Wars saw Jedi Knights assume active military service and undertake tours of duty across the galaxy. In addition, George Lucas proclaims the prequel trilogy as “the heyday, the golden age of Jedi,” referring to the expansive nature of their fights and battling as “a large group” in the behind the scenes featurette (7:01) of Attack of the Clones. Similarly, the Star Wars Saga Edition Core Rulebook (pg. 259) states that the Rise of the Empire Era sees the Jedi Knights at “their peak of power and influence.” These facts illustrate that the shroud was weakening the Force connections of ten thousand Jedi Knights across a galaxy, smothering their vision.
Equally impressive is the shroud’s potency—the degree to which it affected Jedi perception. Mace Windu, senior member of the Jedi High Council, is a warrior of spectacular gifts. Perhaps his greatest skill was his ability to detect shatterpoints: (From the Revenge of the Sith novelization, pg. 146, hardback edition)
To Mace's Force perception, the world crystallized around them, becoming a gem of reality shot through with flaws and fault lines of possibility. This was Mace's particular gift: to see how people and situations fit together in the Force, to find the shear planes that can cause them to break in useful ways, and to intuit what sort of strike would best make the cut. Though he could not consistently determine the significance of the structures he perceived—the darkening cloud upon the Force that had risen with the rebirth of the Sith made that harder and harder with each passing day—the presence of shatterpoints was always clear.
The ability to detect shatterpoints so casually testifies to the fact that, even among Jedi Masters, Windu’s insight was uncommonly keen. But as the above excerpt indicates, even this was being affected by the dark side. The Revenge of the Sith novelization (ROTS 146): “Anakin was somehow a pivot point, the fulcrum of a lever with Obi-Wan on one side, Palpatine on the other, and the galaxy in the balance, but the dark cloud on the Force prevented his perception from reaching into the future for so much as a hint of where this might lead.”
Given the malevolent, pervasive affect of the shroud on the Jedi, it might seem almost assumed that such a phenomenon would be a tool of the Sith; but not only does canon evidence support that assumption, it also makes explicitly clear that the shroud was, in fact, inextricably linked to the existence of Darth Sidious himself:
[list]
[*]The Attack of the Clones graphic novel depicts a moment in which Master Yoda attempts to meditate within the Force, but his vision is clouded by the apparition of a mysterious hooded figure.[*]The second installment of a two-part article by Abel G. Peña entitled “Aliens in the Empire” mentions that the dark side adept and future Imperial Procurator of Justice Hethrir “possessed Darth Sidious’ rare talent to cast a dark side shadow over Force users, dulling their abilities.”
[*]The Revenge of the Sith novelization (pg. 321, hardback edition) makes the following claim with respect to Darth Sidious: “the darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow [Palpatine]; it was the darkness.”[/list]
Section conclusion: Darth Sidious’s strength in the dark side of the Force not only devastates his physical form with its lethal intensity, but also has an incredible external affect on the galaxy—he is singlehandedly capable of smothering the perceptions of ten thousand Jedi Knights during the era in which they are at the peak of their power across the countless light-years that span the galaxy. It is a feat the size and scale of which have yet to be equaled. [/B]
