Venom vs. Carnage

Originally posted by jinzin
Venom stomps carnage...just like usual.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
? dident Sam just post there fights and which Venom has the winning record, and in fact carnage admits himself to be inferior?

First of all, those fights he did not have a winning record in, and the ones where he did better were due to him having plot devices or assistance (guns, help, etc.)

Secondly, Carnage being more powerful and faster is a fact, each generation becomes stronger, with Toxin being the strongest of all. His symbiote also has more abilities and is closer bonded. Brocks intelligence advantage is exaggerated, and he hasn't been portrayed as Peter Parker or anything himself. Venom has a tendency to get in close and brawl. Which puts him at a disadvantage. He is also at a disadvantage at a range where Carnage has more abilities.

Third, Carnage "admitting" something in a comic means little. Wolverine said he can break Spider-Man's neck after all if he wanted to (something you like to ignore). Venom has also admitted Carnage is stronger and faster than him (which he *is*). Carnage has kicked Venom's ass before with assistance.

Did you even read the fights? And Fourth, simply posting fights and saying a character wins, is absurd forum debating and removes the point of a forum battle. In comic books you have plot devices story arcs, characters that job, etc. To tell a story. Popularity also comes into play, and Venom *is* more popular than Carnage which is why he was killed off. Hell if we use forum books only, characters like GL, Flash, and Strange would be far less powerful. Here we fight with them at their best.

Stop trying to look for something to argue with me about all of the time. With that said in a neutral environment with no help or plot devices and both of them fighting at their best, Carnage takes the majority. Feat skewing isn't going to change that.

CM, dont feel like arguing with you, but you just dont remember it right. Venom didnt defeat Carnage with plot devices. Most of the time said plot devices favored Carnage, not Venom. Examples: In "Unleashed" it was the train conveniently passing by and the fact that he had more experience fighting through the net, Venom was still new at it, and yet they stalemated each other. Maximum Carnage Venom was in a much crappier shape than Carnage and still kicked his ass all over the place. No guns, no nothing, just fists. And then there is "trial" where Venom beat him twice with his bare hands without any plot devices and despite constant interference from Spider-man. Physically overpowered him in "Venom vs Carnage" etc And while it was said once that next generations should be stronger such statements in comics are rarely true. It has more to do with the "first appearance so gotta look badass" rule. Even more so if we count all the upgrades the character had. I agree with you that forum battle is a different story but I dont see why we cant at least use some of the comics examples to make a conclusion as long as those fights didnt involve PIS/CIS. And at one point or another Venom displayed most of the abilities Carnage has, so he's just as versetile.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
does everyone have Sam on block or something, because he clearly disprove this notion wrong in his post

Originally posted by jinzin
No they just instantly ignore the content in his posts the minute they see he has Azula as his avatar 😏

SamZED and CMaster are BOTH wrong, here's why:

Carnage is PHYSICALLY superior to venom...he's more versatile, more deadly, stronger, faster

BUT

Venom is MENTALLY superior to Carnage...he's more experienced, he's more aggressive (when fighting Carnage), and Carnage is for some reason a bit scared of fighting Venom (daddy issues)

hence the matchup is quite close and Venom ends up winning some because he gets into Carnage's head.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Like never? Oh you mean with help. 😛

First of all, those fights he did not have a winning record in, and the ones where he did better were due to him having plot devices or assistance (guns, help, etc.)

Secondly, Carnage being more powerful and faster is a fact, each generation becomes stronger, with Toxin being the strongest of all. His symbiote also has more abilities and is closer bonded. Brocks intelligence advantage is exaggerated, and he hasn't been portrayed as Peter Parker or anything himself. Venom has a tendency to get in close and brawl. Which puts him at a disadvantage. He is also at a disadvantage at a range where Carnage has more abilities.

Third, Carnage "admitting" something in a comic means little. Wolverine said he can break Spider-Man's neck after all if he wanted to (something you like to ignore). Venom has also admitted Carnage is stronger and faster than him (which he *is*). Carnage has kicked Venom's ass before with assistance.

Did you even read the fights? And Fourth, simply posting fights and saying a character wins, is absurd forum debating and removes the point of a forum battle. In comic books you have plot devices story arcs, characters that job, etc. To tell a story. Popularity also comes into play, and Venom *is* more popular than Carnage which is why he was killed off. Hell if we use forum books only, characters like GL, Flash, and Strange would be far less powerful. Here we fight with them at their best.

Stop trying to look for something to argue with me about all of the time. With that said in a neutral environment with no help or plot devices and both of them fighting at their best, Carnage takes the majority. Feat skewing isn't going to change that.

But please feel free to prove carnage is superior.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan

But please feel free to prove carnage is superior.

he can shoot symbiote bullets

Originally posted by Starscream M
he can turn his arms into blades

he can shoot symbiote bullets

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
niether of that makes carnage superior, ur just lisiting random powers now.

Originally posted by Starscream M
so if we fought, and you had a knife and a gun, that doesn't make you superior? come on now 🙄

Originally posted by Starscream M
SamZED and CMaster are BOTH wrong, here's why:

Carnage is PHYSICALLY superior to venom...he's more versatile, more deadly, stronger, faster

BUT

Venom is MENTALLY superior to Carnage...he's more experienced, he's more aggressive (when fighting Carnage), and Carnage is for some reason a bit scared of fighting Venom (daddy issues)

hence the matchup is quite close and Venom ends up winning some because he gets into Carnage's head.

Strength, they've taken turns overpowering each other physically so debatable. And that's BEFORE Venom had his upgrades.

Speed, maybe if we go by "savage alliance" alone. Most of the other encounters are in Brock's favor. He's even blitzed Carnage at some point.

Deadly? I guess, he's a psycho and a mass murderer after all.

More versatile. Wouldnt say so. Venom pretty much displayed every ability Carnage has.

As for being mentally strong, it does depend on the host yeah. For example Spider-man can wear the venom symbiote but it will never amp him the way it amps Brock. Same with Gargan.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I dont need a knife or a gun to beat u, so it hardly matters, I was superior before I got either weapon. Yes because being stabbed and shot is so damaging to symbiots 🙄 . Please if you honestly think that makes carnage superior, your not qualified to debate this topic.

Originally posted by Starscream M
you are a clown. I would have you in a submission in less than 3 seconds. Come at me bro!

Originally posted by SamZED

More versatile. Wouldnt say so. Venom pretty much displayed every ability Carnage has. .

I agree, but venom isn't generally depicted as using the full extent of his symbiote the way carnage or even gargan did.

iirc, back in the day this was explained by the fact carnage had bonded entirely with his symbiote (referred to himself as "I"😉 whereas Brock still was a different individual from his symbiote (referred to himself as "we"😉

that might have changed, idk

Originally posted by inimalist
I agree, but venom isn't generally depicted as using the full extent of his symbiote the way carnage or even gargan did.

iirc, back in the day this was explained by the fact carnage had bonded entirely with his symbiote (referred to himself as "I"😉 whereas Brock still was a different individual from his symbiote (referred to himself as "we"😉

that might have changed, idk

Originally posted by SamZED
Gargan never impressed me as Venom tbh.

😆😆😆

Originally posted by SamZED
😆😆😆

Gargan pwned Steel Spider, General Wolfram and Redeemer. True a-list characters. Not to mention a Skrull and an Atlantean. Did so well against Colossus that Piotr had to resort to a plot device (brick) to fend him off. He was raping both Thing and Logan in a What if (his every appearance is canon, like in Mxyzptlk's case). His absolute lowest showing is him having an upper hand in the fight with Spiderboy. That fight should've been over in half of a panel ermm

You disgust me with your total disrespect for one of Marvel's most powerful characters, if not the most uhuh

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I not picking an arguement with anything. You seemed as others to ignore Sam post in which he stated issue and titles of there fights. and as Sam again above explains, the fights did not go down the way you seem to remember. I have read the fights and I don't recall Carnage being superior, not been stated as superior asside froma single hyperbole statement which contradict the statement directly made by carnage who admitted inferiority to Venom. From what I have seen and from the issue Sam has presented, venom has come off as physically equal if not superior and simply better with his abilities then carnage. Only thing that disagree with this is handbooks which are awful and are exclude purposely from the boards, because of there inaccuracy. Seem more like wishful thinking that carnage wins, but perhaps that just me.

But please feel free to prove carnage is superior.

Each generation of symbiote is superior in strength and speed, that's a fact. Carnage has a better symbiote than Venom. Venom is smarter (but not by leaps and bounds) and he's less willing to kill. Carnage can also use his symbiote for other abilities.

I didn't ignore anything, we were discussing it during the thread.

Put them in an enclosed area and I'd give Carnage the majority. With them at their best.

Originally posted by SamZED
CM, dont feel like arguing with you, but you just dont remember it right. Venom didnt defeat Carnage with plot devices. Most of the time said plot devices favored Carnage, not Venom. Examples: In "Unleashed" it was the train conveniently passing by and the fact that he had more experience fighting through the net, Venom was still new at it, and yet they stalemated each other. Maximum Carnage Venom was in a much crappier shape than Carnage and still kicked his ass all over the place. No guns, no nothing, just fists. And then there is "trial" where Venom beat him twice with his bare hands without any plot devices and despite constant interference from Spider-man. Physically overpowered him in "Venom vs Carnage" etc And while it was said once that next generations should be stronger such statements in comics are rarely true. It has more to do with the "first appearance so gotta look badass" rule. Even more so if we count all the upgrades the character had. I agree with you that forum battle is a different story but I dont see why we cant at least use some of the comics examples to make a conclusion as long as those fights didnt involve PIS/CIS. And at one point or another Venom displayed most of the abilities Carnage has, so he's just as versetile.

lol that very well might be the case, people hate me.

Dont make me do "something unspeakably horrible to you and your friends." 😛 What can I say, I have a thing for insane evil chicks. 😄 Cant wait to find out what happened to her, once the Legend of Korra comes out. Will settle for a lousy flashback even.

What are you saying the end result of the match is anyways?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Put them in an enclosed area and I'd give Carnage the majority. With them at their best. In maximum Carnage he was hit by that gun and then Brock put him in the generator before he "came to his senses". Carnage was always protrayed as a larger threat. More times than not it's Venom and Spider-Man dealing with him. In Venom vs Carnage, Carnage was pregnant with toxin.

What are you saying the end result of the match is anyways?

I give Brock a solid 6/10. Dont really count the upgrade because no one ever remembers that.

EDIT: We've debated this several times and probably know all each others argument. I think that going by showings Venom takes it, but I understand why you choose to side with Carnage. So as usual lets just agree to disagree on the subject.😛

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Gargan pwned [b]Steel Spider, General Wolfram and Redeemer. True a-list characters. Not to mention a Skrull and an Atlantean. Did so well against Colossus that Piotr had to resort to a plot device (brick) to fend him off. He was raping both Thing and Logan in a What if (his every appearance is canon, like in Mxyzptlk's case). His absolute lowest showing is him having an upper hand in the fight with Spiderboy. That fight should've been over in half of a panel ermm

You disgust me with your total disrespect for one of Marvel's most powerful characters, if not the most uhuh [/B]

Originally posted by SamZED
He was pregnant in the beginning of the story and that's why Venom didnt fight him when they were swinging throughout the city. When Venom overpowered him in the subway he was no longer pregnant. "Savage alliance" is the only time Spider-man helped Venom fight Carnage. In "Trial" and during the last battle of "maximum Carnage" he was actually trying to stop him, getting in the way, basically protecting Carnage. Carnage was hit by the gun, but not during the battle, Brock didnt have any help when they fought. And yes Carnage was crazier than usual because that gun's effect didnt wear off yet, but Brock was also weakened because of the torture. Collapsed on his knees right before Carnage appeared. I dont think it should count as a plot device that favors Venom if Brock himself could barely stand.

I give Brock a solid 6/10. Dont really count the upgrade because no one ever remembers that.

EDIT: We've debated this several times and probably know all each others argument. I think that going by showings Venom takes it, but I understand why you choose to side with Carnage. So as usual lets just agree to disagree on the subject.😛

Spider-Man wanted to stop Carnage, just not kill him. Black Cat and Spidey were there too. Gaining up on poor Carnage. 🙁