Classic Demogorge vs Kubik...

Originally posted by zopzop
"Canonically" you'd be right, but ON THESE FORUMS, the OP stated "CLASSIC Demogorge" vs Kubik. Not hard to understand. It's not unheard of for forum posters to use characters from/before/after certain time periods in a comic company for VS threads, so just stop this "there is no such thing as Classic X or Pre-retcon Y".

Yes, it's obviously my "stupidity" and not Kubik's showings that leave doubt in my mind. What has Kubik done (he's had MORE on panel appearances that aren't flashbacks than Classic Demogorge!) with the time he's been on panel? Beat half a Cube Being, then get owned by Super Adaptoid, and what else? Nothing. During that same time period Tom DeFalco was the Editor in Chief for three important issues involving Kubik : (a) FF 319 where Kubik beat half a cube being, (b) Avengers 289-290 where Super Adaptoid owned Kubik, and (c) Thor Annual 14 which had the "Relative Strengths and Comparisons" section which compared a FULL CUBE BEINGS power to Odin (more or less) so he obviously felt Cube Being = Skyfather or else those words would never see paper. You can't provide jack crap in terms of on panel proof so you resort to attacks. Fine by me, each time you fail to substantiate any of your claims and just resort to garbage posts, you just prove my point.

And you indeed live up to that title. First off, FF 319 was published after Avengers 289-290 so how can you claim Kubik beat Beyonder, then get owned by Super-Adaptoid? Go reread those issues where Super-Adaptoid didn't own Kubik. Far from it.

Avengers 289-290: REVEALS Earth's cosmic cube had hatched into a being known as Kubik. At this point Kubik was still "partially mature". This isn't even the experienced Kubik you see later in FF 319 that warped an entire universe. Also, the Super-Adaptoid could adapt to almost anything because it was powered by a SLIVER OF THE COSMIC CUBE that was once Kubik. Pay atttention zopzop. It used that to call Kubik forth and replicated Kubik's own powers to become it's equal. Where you get this owning business from because SA threatened Kubik that a fight between the two would wreck all of reality. SA then teleported Kubik to Andromeda galaxy. The whole book was full of references about how SA was a master of all reality after he copied Kubik's power and a confrontation between the two would lay waste to the 616 and "spread to the infinite dimensions and adjacent universes". The only way Kubik avoided such a collateral damage was sending Cap in who only won by tricking and confusing SA's programming causing SA to kill itself.

In other words, the Avenger's appearance merely shows how powerful Kubik and Cube Beings are. That showing by Ralph Macchio is later cemented by Steve Englehart's FF 319. You might want to actually read that Avengers story before bringing it up as some kind of lost for Kubik. There was no fight. Someone teleporting another person off and the other person avoiding the fight because it would result in destruction of the universe isn't anything of a beating as you're claiming.

As for Thor, that's Thor's own speculation. Heresay is one thing, experience is another. Thor says a complete cube reshape a planet? LOLWTF? Thanos warped the entire universe. Beyonder created an entire universe. Kubik warped an a universe. Let's believe Thor but ignore Kubik and Super-Adaptoid's conclusion that their fight would destroy reality. Thor wasn't there when Kubik fought Beyonder so WTF does Thor know?

This is pretty done. The Demogorge eats gods, not cosmic cubes. It isn't replicating Super Adaptoids feat because it doesn't have that ability. Even if this was the "partially mature" Kubik, he'd still stomp Demogorge. But seeing as we can use other appearances like FF 319, Kubik rage stomps Demogorge and turns him into a tea pot set.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And you indeed live up to that title. First off, FF 319 was published after Avengers 289-290 so how can you claim Kubik beat Beyonder, then get owned by Super-Adaptoid? Go reread those issues where Super-Adaptoid didn't own Kubik. Far from it.

Avengers 289-290: REVEALS Earth's cosmic cube had hatched into a being known as Kubik. At this point Kubik was still "partially mature". This isn't even the experienced Kubik you see later in FF 319 that warped an entire universe. Also, the Super-Adaptoid could adapt to almost anything because it was powered by a SLIVER OF THE COSMIC CUBE that was once Kubik. Pay atttention zopzop. It used that to call Kubik forth and replicated Kubik's own powers to become it's equal. Where you get this owning business from because SA threatened Kubik that a fight between the two would wreck all of reality. SA then teleported Kubik to Andromeda galaxy. The whole book was full of references about how SA was a master of all reality after he copied Kubik's power and a confrontation between the two would lay waste to the 616 and "spread to the infinite dimensions and adjacent universes". The only way Kubik avoided such a collateral damage was sending Cap in who only won by tricking and confusing SA's programming causing SA to kill itself.

In other words, the Avenger's appearance merely shows how powerful Kubik and Cube Beings are. That showing by Ralph Macchio is later cemented by Steve Englehart's FF 319. You might want to actually read that Avengers story before bringing it up as some kind of lost for Kubik. There was no fight. Someone teleporting another person off and the other person avoiding the fight because it would result in destruction of the universe isn't anything of a beating as you're claiming.

As for Thor, that's Thor's own speculation. Heresay is one thing, experience is another. Thor says a complete cube reshape a planet? LOLWTF? Thanos warped the entire universe. Beyonder created an entire universe. Kubik warped an a universe. Let's believe Thor but ignore Kubik and Super-Adaptoid's conclusion that their fight would destroy reality. Thor wasn't there when Kubik fought Beyonder so WTF does Thor know?

This is pretty done. The Demogorge eats gods, not cosmic cubes. It isn't replicating Super Adaptoids feat because it doesn't have that ability. Even if this was the "partially mature" Kubik, he'd still stomp Demogorge. But seeing as we can use other appearances like FF 319, Kubik rage stomps Demogorge and turns him into a tea pot set.

Yeah he got pwned by the Adaptoid. He adapted his power and then sent him away like an annoying child. Kubik couln't beat the Adaptoid without outside help from Cap. And don't give me that "universe would be destroyed" hyperbole garbage. The Adaptoid did jack crap worthwhile with Kubik's power on panel. No good power showings and being humiliated by the Adaptoid all in one issue.

Regarding the Thor issue, the same Editor in Chief for those three comics approved those words for print. That's where Marvel saw Cubes after the Beyonder retcons.

Regarding what Demogorge "eats" so far he's really only gone up against Gods, saying all he can do is eat them is BS.

So far what do we have from Kubik? Beating a half cube and warping it's "universe". What else? Oh right.................NOTHING.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah he got pwned by the Adaptoid. He adapted his power and then sent him away like an annoying child. Kubik couln't beat the Adaptoid without outside help from Cap. And don't give me that "universe would be destroyed" hyperbole garbage. The Adaptoid did jack crap worthwhile with Kubik's power on panel. No good power showings and being humiliated by the Adaptoid all in one issue.

LMAO. So Adaptoid couldn't do jack shit with Kubik's power except move Kubik across galaxies with a gesture? You say hyperbole yet how is it hyperbole when Cosmic Cubes and Cube Beings have done exactly that - performed universal feat? This isn't a low showing because Atum/Demogorge would been copied as well.

Regarding the Thor issue, the same Editor in Chief for those three comics approved those words for print. That's where Marvel saw Cubes after the Beyonder retcons.

You're among the worst debaters on this board y'know? You act as if the Editor in Chief remembers everything he approves. You know how many books are published a year? Furthermore, that's Thor's opinion that Odin is equal to a full cube when actual feats prove otherwise. Heresay doesn't trump actual feats so take your nonesense somewhere else because only a dumbass would take Thor's words as actual proof that a full Cube can only warp on a planetary level.

Regarding what Demogorge "eats" so far he's really only gone up against Gods, saying all he can do is eat them is BS.

So far what do we have from Kubik? Beating a half cube and warping it's "universe". What else? Oh right.................NOTHING.

Oh right, warping an entire universe is nothing. No, I see your point now. Classic Demogorge hasn't done shit on universal level so you dismiss Kubik's feats as nothing so you can claim Demogorge would win. That's debating?

Kubik smashes Demogorge with a few solar system then turns him into a teapot set. Seriously WTF is Demogorge going to do? Eat Kubik? That's your entire argument? All you've got is tearing down Kubik's feats because Demogorge can't ****en win. Kubik pisses on Demogorge.

pizza

WhiteWitchKing, you won my view. 👆

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
LMAO. So Adaptoid couldn't do jack shit with Kubik's power except move Kubik across galaxies with a gesture? You say hyperbole yet how is it hyperbole when Cosmic Cubes and Cube Beings have done exactly that - performed universal feat? This isn't a low showing because Atum/Demogorge would been copied as well.

No it was hyperbole because the Adaptoid didn't do jack with it that suggested he could destroy a universe. TPing vast distances impresses you? Then you must think Lila Cheney is a universe buster.

Here is the Super Adaptoid in action :
Failing HARD vs Mimic -

Pwned by Thing -

Overwhelmed by Cosmic Awareness then banished by Captain Marvel -

Yet Kubik couldn't do jack vs him! Also worth mentioning that he wasn't even overwhelmed in any way by Kubik's "universe busting" power or cosmic awareness (if any) Kubik possessed. And this being is gonna own Classic Demogorge or even copy him?

You're among the worst debaters on this board y'know? You act as if the Editor in Chief remembers everything he approves. You know how many books are published a year? Furthermore, that's Thor's opinion that Odin is equal to a full cube when actual feats prove otherwise. Heresay doesn't trump actual feats so take your nonesense somewhere else because only a dumbass would take Thor's words as actual proof that a full Cube can only warp on a planetary level.

Laugh all you want but that section of the Annual was actually followed by later writers. For example, he placed Celestials above Cube Beings. Why do people view Cube Beings as being below Celestials, when Celestials do not have any on panel feats comparable to Cube Beings? Because later writers followed his hierarchy. In a FF Annual, Kubik admits CB's are many orders below Celestials in terms of power. Kubik and Kosmos were about to be judged by a no name Celestial and they were in fear for their life.

Oh right, warping an entire universe is nothing. No, I see your point now. Classic Demogorge hasn't done shit on universal level so you dismiss Kubik's feats as nothing so you can claim Demogorge would win. That's debating?

Kubik smashes Demogorge with a few solar system then turns him into a teapot set. Seriously WTF is Demogorge going to do? Eat Kubik? That's your entire argument? All you've got is tearing down Kubik's feats because Demogorge can't ****en win. Kubik pisses on Demogorge.

Odin has universal, even multiversal level feats yet he feared Demogorge enough to summon a meeting of the Council Elite. Mephisto battled Galactus to a standstill all the while wrecking havoc on the universe, yet Mephisto and 6 other Hell Lords were as insects before Classic Demogorge. http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47254/1283762-galactus_vs_mephisto_super.png
For example here are Mephisto and Satannish fighting in a neutral hell realm and wrecking havoc on other dimensions :

For reference this is Satannish and Shaper ( a full Cube Being) conversing :

Notice the lack of anything resembling fear on Satannish's part. Also notice that Shaper is confronting him on Earth and not in Satannish's home plane (Mephisto and Satannish are much weaker outside their realm). Yet Mephisto, Satannish's equal, plus 6 other Hell Lords in their own realm were crushed like insects by Demogorge.

Now I'm waiting for something spectacular from Kubik aside from his beating half a cosmic cube and warping it's pocket universe.

@zopzop and WWK...

I must say, you both bring up some valid points and I think you are both right as pertains your respective arguments; whats wrong is the consistency (or should I say inconsistency) that grossly infects comics...

The Super Adaptoid for example; if it can mimic Kubiks power, then its low showings against the others are PIS...if its showings against the others are legit, then it mimicing Kubiks power is PIS.

As pertains Kubik vs the Beyonder, while it did appear to be a pocket universe to me as well in that issue of the Fantastic Four, it was clearly described as a universe...

This was also supported by the end of Secret Wars 2; the Beyonders universe was described as one far more vast than our own...so despite appearances in that issue of the FF, we have two on panel descriptions that label it as a full fledge universe.

But then, of course, the writters at Marvel come right back and state that Cubes are "several orders of magnitude" beneath Celestials...so I guess a lone Celestial can reality warp atleast 100 universes with the same ease that Kubik did...LoL.

Its all a big mess, and even though we do it because its fun and we all really like comicbooks, its kinda pointless as the inconsistencies sometimes make arguments like this one an exercise in futility...

I don't know why you guys keep doing this its comics if power-levels have to be ignored, changed, or elevated for the story to work that what gonna happened its happened in the past it will happen in the future.On battle boards you certainly get slapped in the face with it much more often but it is what it is.

Originally posted by SuperiorTech
I don't know why you guys keep doing this its comics if power-levels have to be ignored, changed, or elevated for the story to work that what gonna happened its happened in the past it will happen in the future.On battle boards you certainly get slapped in the face with it much more often but it is what it is.

👆

Power levels absolutely do flucuate to make a given story work...

Otherwise, how else can Odin bust galaxies as a side effect of his battles one showing, but the next he couldnt put a shieldless Thanos down for the count with Gungnir?

Thats why we use average showings here on the forums as someone can almost always come up with a very low showing when arguing against a characters super-high-end feat...

Originally posted by zopzop

No it was hyperbole because the Adaptoid didn't do jack with it that suggested he could destroy a universe. TPing vast distances impresses you? Then you must think Lila Cheney is a universe buster.

Here is the Super Adaptoid in action :
Failing HARD vs Mimic -

Pwned by Thing -

Overwhelmed by Cosmic Awareness then banished by Captain Marvel -

Yet Kubik couldn't do jack vs him! Also worth mentioning that he wasn't even overwhelmed in any way by Kubik's "universe busting" power or cosmic awareness (if any) Kubik possessed. And this being is gonna own Classic Demogorge or even copy him?[/b]

So these pics you're showing is Adaptoid after it has Kubiks' powers right? Oh, wait no. So Kubik was trying to fight Adaptoid in their first meeting right? Oh, wait no. Did Adaptoid copy Kubik while conversing with him, oh hell yes. When did Kubik actually fight Adaptoid after it copied his powers? Ummmm, oh wait they didn't fight.

So what does this prove because Thor harmed the Demogorge as well. Kubik couldn't fight Adaptoid after it had Kubik's powers because he wanted avoid a fight that would wreck the universe and beyond. KInda hard for you to understand but try okay. lol Why don't you get that part right because afterwards Kubik removed Adaptoid's Cosmic Cube piece which allows him to copy at that level. Shit, so Adaptoid can copy Kubik and become his equal all of a sudden Kubik is only meta level?

Adaptoid isn't in this fight. It took it to be Kubik's equal to do anything to Kubik which wasn't much. So what is the Demogorge going to do when it's not even at Kubik's power level? Kubik turns him into glue.

Laugh all you want but that section of the Annual was actually followed by later writers. For example, he placed Celestials above Cube Beings. Why do people view Cube Beings as being below Celestials, when Celestials do not have any on panel feats comparable to Cube Beings? Because later writers followed his hierarchy. In a FF Annual, Kubik admits CB's are many orders below Celestials in terms of power. Kubik and Kosmos were about to be judged by a no name Celestial and they were in fear for their life.

WTF is that point of this paragraph other than pointing out that the Celestials are more powerful than the Cubes? Is one of the Celestials named Demogorge? Heck, even a Celestial to be, Franklin, created a pocket universe as a child. That Annual is wrong because even half a cube like Beyonder created an entire universe and not just a planet.

Odin has universal, even multiversal level feats yet he feared Demogorge enough to summon a meeting of the Council Elite.

Odin isn't universal. Who told you this? Nobody on this board or even Marvel writers would consider him that. The guy shakes the cosmos and you think he's universal? Most Cubes do that and then warp the hell out of it too. Half a cube created one while another cube warped it in his hand, threating to destroy it. Letsee feats of Odin warping an entire universe. So are you done? Demogorge absorbs their powers because of his ability.

Mephisto battled Galactus to a standstill all the while wrecking havoc on the universe, yet Mephisto and 6 other Hell Lords were as insects before Classic Demogorge. http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/47254/1283762-galactus_vs_mephisto_super.png
For example here are Mephisto and Satannish fighting in a neutral hell realm and wrecking havoc on other dimensions :

That's cool except these gods/demons were fighting a being that feasted on their powers. Desak slew the Dark Gods pantheon among countless others. It doesn't mean he be beat say Thanos. Archenemy was beating the entire horde of splinter lords and their minions. Does that mean his ability to absorb magic put him above Tenebrous in a fight? As for dimension wrecking, Cubes have done this time and time again. Furthermore, Kubik has gone beyond that and warped it in his hand and threatened to crush it. Letsee any skyfather or hell lords make that claim.

For reference this is Satannish and Shaper ( a full Cube Being) conversing :

Notice the lack of anything resembling fear on Satannish's part. Also notice that Shaper is confronting him on Earth and not in Satannish's home plane (Mephisto and Satannish are much weaker outside their realm). Yet Mephisto, Satannish's equal, plus 6 other Hell Lords in their own realm were crushed like insects by Demogorge.

Now I'm waiting for something spectacular from Kubik aside from his beating half a cosmic cube and warping it's pocket universe.

What's your point here? That Satannish isn't afraid of Sharper so therefore it must mean Sharper wouldn't wreck him in a fight? God knows how many times Loki isn't afraid of Surtur or Odin. Or how Thanos talked down to Odin and the upper tier abstracts. Notice that this event took place on Earth and not Satannish realm because Glorian was still on Earth. Why would it take place in Satannish's realm unless he was successful in taking Glorian there? Also, Glorian has warped on a planetary level to a degree and he's nowhere near any of the Cube Beings in power. So Annual is contradictory to the majority of showings for CCs and CBs.

So aside from being about to absorb their attacks and consuming gods and demons, what puts Demgorge above Kubik again? Demgorge can't exploit Kubik with his ability against the gods/demons. What's stopping Kubik from turning the god into a tea pot? Lol. Adaptoid isn't in this fight and he already absorbed Kubik's powers in that showing. Straight up between the Elder God and the Cube Being, what do you have really? He's going to eat Kubik. Lol