Thousands of years of effort, a rogues gallery of ruthless warlords, galactic war sparking tyrants, planet eating Lovecraftian horrors, star killing Force machines... and all they get is thirty years of tyranny.
Fvck, screw further advancing the Sith cause... they all suck.
EDIT - KMC really needs to get rid of its censor... like really Raz, it's just stupid, fvck the moral guardians, this is the goddamn Internet.
Originally posted by Ysoserious?
Agreed, but this is more or less because of Bane's institution of the Rule of Two.I'm unfamiliar with any actual [b]work
enacted by Bane that benefited Sidious in the long run. All of his achievements seemed to be the direct result of his machinations, not other Sith. [/B]
Spy networks, Credits, Sith Holocrons, ROT, the jedi believing the Sith were gone... How did Sidious not benefit from Bane is a better question.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, Bane was a pioneer with my cursory knowledge of him but Sidious to me is like the michael jordan of the sith in terms of impact. The guy ruled the galaxy for years under imperialistic rule. To do so he had to overcome the jedi at their peak. The planning of Sidious through subtle manipulation and turning the chosen one into his last apprentice was a sheer stroke of genius.If Bane and Sidious both had years to plan against each other do you think Bane would have a chance ?
If Sidious is MJ, then Bane is Gretzky. lol. The Jedi Order that Sidious overcame was not a jedi order at thier peak. They had been culled as the wariors they were, when the senate removed them from the military. Without fighting the Sith, they became complacent and weak. They were blinded too the Sith or Milliena.
Bane getting rid of the brotherhood is as equal as Sidious destroying the JO. But what was more impressive.... the Thought Bomb or Order 66?
As to your last question, "If Bane and Sidious both had years to plan against each other do you think Bane would have a chance ?"
I would say, yes he does. Sidious was an excellent strategist, but what made him more powerfull was his ability to manipulate a situation. Sidious set up and manuverd a plan that lasted...40-50 years? And that plan was the culimination of all the work of all the Sith before him. Bane set up a system that lasted a Millenimum, that eventually put Sidious in the right place at the right time.
I would say in any kind of confrontation between Bane and Sidious, it would be too close to tell who would win. I would give the battle to Bane on one principal alone. Bane knew that he would never rule the galaxy for long if he tried. He put aside his ego, and did what was best for the Sith Order. Sidious on the other hand thought he would rule the galaxy forever, and never believed he would be defeated. His arrogance destroyed the Sith. So Bane would win because Sidious' arrogance.
Originally posted by CaedusRulesI don't think they were complacent or weak I feel as though Sidious was always one step ahead of him while Anakin chose Vader over Sidious which changed everything.
If Sidious is MJ, then Bane is Gretzky. lol. The Jedi Order that Sidious overcame was not a jedi order at thier peak. They had been culled as the wariors they were, when the senate removed them from the military. Without fighting the Sith, they became complacent and weak. They were blinded too the Sith or Milliena.Bane getting rid of the brotherhood is as equal as Sidious destroying the JO. But what was more impressive.... the Thought Bomb or Order 66?
As to your last question, "If Bane and Sidious both had years to plan against each other do you think Bane would have a chance ?"
I would say, yes he does. Sidious was an excellent strategist, but what made him more powerfull was his ability to manipulate a situation. Sidious set up and manuverd a plan that lasted...40-50 years? And that plan was the culimination of all the work of all the Sith before him. Bane set up a system that lasted a Millenimum, that eventually put Sidious in the right place at the right time.
I would say in any kind of confrontation between Bane and Sidious, it would be too close to tell who would win. I would give the battle to Bane on one principal alone. Bane knew that he would never rule the galaxy for long if he tried. He put aside his ego, and did what was best for the Sith Order. Sidious on the other hand thought he would rule the galaxy forever, and never believed he would be defeated. His arrogance destroyed the Sith. So Bane would win because Sidious' arrogance.
For that overconfidence/arrogance of Sidious is why I like his personality more. I love those types of guys better than the realists.
Meh, I definately see the Jedi as weaker and more complacent in the movies than they should be. Take for instance the Phantom Menace. There is a sighting of a possible Sith lord who attacked a Jedi in the open. And the Jedi Council prioritise seeing who becomes freaking chancellor over doing a damn thing about it. They send 1 Jedi and a padawan out alone when the mans already attacked them once. I mean what the hell? Fighting the darkside is the top priority of the Jedi, not playing at ****ing politics. Yoda himself admits that the Jedi had lost their way after Order 66 and Christ was he right.
Originally posted by CaedusRules
If Sidious is MJ, then Bane is Gretzky. lol. The Jedi Order that Sidious overcame was not a jedi order at thier peak. They had been culled as the wariors they were, when the senate removed them from the military. Without fighting the Sith, they became complacent and weak. They were blinded too the Sith or Milliena.
Y'know, even though the Jedi weren't living in a martial time and were enjoying the Great Peace of the Republic, the Order before and during Sidious's time produced Yoda and Mace Windu, the 2nd and 3rd strongest Jedi of all time (def. in the top five), after Luke Skywalker.
Originally posted by NephthysMaul was defeated but they definitely should have sent more since Maul in effect proved superior to both combatants. Windu didn't waste any time confronting Sidious either. He brought three jedi masters with him but in the end was outplayed by Sidious over Anakin which changed everything. After that Sidious was that good to get the jump on the jedi and destroy the bulk of their forces before they were even ware of the threat.
Meh, I definately see the Jedi as weaker and more complacent in the movies than they should be. Take for instance the Phantom Menace. There is a sighting of a possible Sith lord who attacked a Jedi in the open. And the Jedi Council prioritise seeing who becomes freaking chancellor over doing a damn thing about it. They send 1 Jedi and a padawan out alone when the mans already attacked them once. I mean what the hell? Fighting the darkside is the top priority of the Jedi, not playing at ****ing politics. Yoda himself admits that the Jedi had lost their way after Order 66 and Christ was he right.
The thing is though that Shatterpoint shows us that in a way its Windu's fault the entire Clone Wars happened. When he had Dooku at his mercy in the arena his Shatterpoint ability showed him that Doou would lead the galaxy into war but that he could stop him with just a casual flick of his wrist. But he didn't. He froze and wimped out on saving the galaxy. And with Yoda, he could have ended the war by killing Dooku, but again and again he shows the evil bastard mercy and goes easy on him in combat. Both of these two failed in their responsibility as Jedi to bring peace and tranquility to the galaxy and the Force, no matter the cost. Not the mention their utter bungling of the Anakin situation
Originally posted by NephthysYeah, I get they failed and miserably but personally even though lucas agrees the series and these books are canon I don't personally see Lucas as giving a crap and would change something in a heartbeat for the movies. I see the movies as canon to themselves and don't consider the show tbh. I know others might disagree but Lucas does seem quite fickle.
The thing is though that Shatterpoint shows us that in a way its Windu's fault the entire Clone Wars happened. When he had Dooku at his mercy in the arena his Shatterpoint ability showed him that Doou would lead the galaxy into war but that he could stop him with just a casual flick of his wrist. But he didn't. He froze and wimped out on saving the galaxy. And with Yoda, he could have ended the war by killing Dooku, but again and again he shows the evil bastard mercy and goes easy on him in combat. Both of these two failed in their responsibility as Jedi to bring peace and tranquility to the galaxy and the Force, no matter the cost. Not the mention their utter bungling of the Anakin situation
They did screw up the Anakin situation but when Anakin was the one who came to Windu informing him of Palpatine he had no reason not to trust him. Anakin walked in at the perfect time and Palpatine usually knows how to make the best of a bad situation(being at the mercy of your opponent and still managing to kill your opponent) kinda thing.
CaedusRules
Spy networks,
Who says that Bane's network was still functioning a millennium later?
CaedusRules
Credits,
Who says that Palpatine made use of Bane's monetary wealth a millennium later?
CaedusRules
Sith Holocrons,
What Holocrons and how many?
CaedusRules
ROT,
This is the only real one you've offered.
CaedusRules
the jedi believing the Sith were gone...
The Sith's secrecy was something that had to be maintained by Bane's successors and was not a direct product of Bane alone.
CaedusRules
How did Sidious not benefit from Bane is a better question.
To be honest, I'm not seeing much from you by way of sources.
CaedusRules
If Sidious is MJ, then Bane is Gretzky. lol. The Jedi Order that Sidious overcame was not a jedi order at thier peak. They had been culled as the wariors they were, when the senate removed them from the military. Without fighting the Sith, they became complacent and weak. They were blinded too the Sith or Milliena.
It might be all of the glaring typos and absurdly selected words, but there are sources that indicate otherwise. George Lucas has referred to the PT as the "golden age of the Jedi," which is corroborated by The Star Wars Saga Edition Core Rulebook.
CaedusRules
Bane getting rid of the brotherhood is as equal as Sidious destroying the JO.
Based on... what?
CaedusRules
But what was more impressive.... the Thought Bomb or Order 66?
Order 66 for sheer irony and hilarity. The Thought Bomb was neither of Bane's design nor a product of his own power, he required the energies of the other members of the Brotherhood in order to complete the ritual.
CaedusRules
As to your last question, "If Bane and Sidious both had years to plan against each other do you think Bane would have a chance ?"I would say, yes he does. Sidious was an excellent strategist, but what made him more powerfull was his ability to manipulate a situation. Sidious set up and manuverd a plan that lasted...40-50 years? And that plan was the culimination of all the work of all the Sith before him. Bane set up a system that lasted a Millenimum, that eventually put Sidious in the right place at the right time.
Bane's establishment of the Rule of Two did nothing but help maintain Sith secrecy, which was important to Palpatine's victory but hardly the primary reason for it. Krayt managed to keep his Sith in secret until he chose to reveal himself, and he did so without Bane's precepts.
The major achievements of Palpatine's success: his election to the office of Supreme Chancellor, his initiation and manipulation of the Clone Wars, his enacting of Order 66... had nothing to do with Bane or any other Sith, for that matter. As a matter of fact, Dooku was more directly instrumental for Palpatine's victory than Bane.
CaedusRules
I would say in any kind of confrontation between Bane and Sidious, it would be too close to tell who would win. I would give the battle to Bane on one principal alone. Bane knew that he would never rule the galaxy for long if he tried. He put aside his ego, and did what was best for the Sith Order. Sidious on the other hand thought he would rule the galaxy forever, and never believed he would be defeated. His arrogance destroyed the Sith. So Bane would win because Sidious' arrogance.
😐
You haven't read the Bane trilogy, have you? It is Bane's arrogance and selfishness that ultimately costs him his life against Zannah. His belief in her inferiority and his right to rule doomed him.
As far as a fight is concerned, Palpatine enjoys a definite edge in power based on sources alone.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Anakin walked in at the perfect time and Palpatine usually knows how to make the best of a bad situation(being at the mercy of your opponent and still managing to kill your opponent) kinda thing.
IMO Sidious was never at the mercy of his opponent. He was faking, because he knew Anakin would step in to keep him from being killed so Anakin could save Padme. It was a lure to draw Anakin to the darkside.
But we are regressing. The Jedi Order had Yoda and Mace, but are they really the top Jedi ever? Just like the Sith we dont hear anything about the Jedi for thousands of years. One thing you can look at though is the Jedi during the time of the Brotherhood of Darkness. They were much stronger and more powerfull during this time. The had control over the entire Repbulic fleet and armies. They had more Jedi that could do more things, like battle meditation, seeing into future, hand to hand combat, healers, etc.etc.etc... The Jedi during Sidious time, and the thousands of years before then weren't much more then embassadors and political police. As such much of what the Jedi were was lost.
Originally posted by CaedusRules
IMO Sidious was never at the mercy of his opponent. He was faking, because he knew Anakin would step in to keep him from being killed so Anakin could save Padme. It was a lure to draw Anakin to the darkside.But we are regressing. The Jedi Order had Yoda and Mace, but are they really the top Jedi ever? Just like the Sith we dont hear anything about the Jedi for thousands of years. One thing you can look at though is the Jedi during the time of the Brotherhood of Darkness. They were much stronger and more powerfull during this time. The had control over the entire Repbulic fleet and armies. They had more Jedi that could do more things, like battle meditation, seeing into future, hand to hand combat, healers, etc.etc.etc... The Jedi during Sidious time, and the thousands of years before then weren't much more then embassadors and political police. As such much of what the Jedi were was lost.
Didn't GL himself say Mace defeated Sidious, in which case, Sidious was at the mercy of Windu.
And yes, Yoda and Windu are two of the most powerful Jedi of all time.
Originally posted by PencilInEyelulz
Who says that Bane's network was still functioning a millennium later?Who says that Palpatine made use of Bane's monetary wealth a millennium later?
What Holocrons and how many?
This is the only real one you've offered.
The Sith's secrecy was something that had to be maintained by Bane's successors and was not a direct product of Bane alone.
To be honest, I'm not seeing much from you by way of sources.
It might be all of the glaring typos and absurdly selected words, but there are sources that indicate otherwise. George Lucas has referred to the PT as the "golden age of the Jedi," which is corroborated by The Star Wars Saga Edition Core Rulebook.
Based on... what?
Order 66 for sheer irony and hilarity. The Thought Bomb was neither of Bane's design nor a product of his own power, he required the energies of the other members of the Brotherhood in order to complete the ritual.
Bane's establishment of the Rule of Two did nothing but help maintain Sith secrecy, which was important to Palpatine's victory but hardly the primary reason for it. Krayt managed to keep his Sith in secret until he chose to reveal himself, and he did so without Bane's precepts.
The major achievements of Palpatine's success: his election to the office of Supreme Chancellor, his initiation and manipulation of the Clone Wars, his enacting of Order 66... had nothing to do with Bane or any other Sith, for that matter. As a matter of fact, Dooku was more directly instrumental for Palpatine's victory than Bane.
😐
You haven't read the Bane trilogy, have you? It is Bane's arrogance and selfishness that ultimately costs him his life against Zannah. His belief in her inferiority and his right to rule doomed him.
As far as a fight is concerned, Palpatine enjoys a definite edge in power based on sources alone.
I have read the Bane Trilogy, and it wasn't Bane's arrogance that got him killed. He knew that he must die by his apprentice's hands. It was his belief that he must keep the Sith strong that lead Bane to challenge Zannah right after his imprisonment. He knew that if they didn't fight it out then, then Zannah would go off and train another sith, and it would fracture his order. He knew, win or lose, it was the only way to keep the ROT true and together. He also knew heading into the fight it was 50-50 he would win or lose... How is that underestimating Zannah or being Arrogant? Maybe you should re-read the books.
Sorry if my writing isnt up to your standard, but Im Dyslexic and I dont feel like spell checking everything.
Lucas might call that era the Golden Age, but you know what... Feeble 70 year olds in Florida say they are in thier golden age too... Golden age could refer to the sun setting on the order.
BTW where are you souces that say Sidious didn't benefit from anything Bane or his "decendants" did.... This is all theory and much of it is up for debate, thus the forum...
Originally posted by CaedusRulesThat's ridiculous to assume he faked losing. GL already stated Windu beat him. There's nothing to it more than someone wishing he didn't lose. I like Sidious a lot as well but he lost.
IMO Sidious was never at the mercy of his opponent. He was faking, because he knew Anakin would step in to keep him from being killed so Anakin could save Padme. It was a lure to draw Anakin to the darkside.But we are regressing. The Jedi Order had Yoda and Mace, but are they really the top Jedi ever? Just like the Sith we dont hear anything about the Jedi for thousands of years. One thing you can look at though is the Jedi during the time of the Brotherhood of Darkness. They were much stronger and more powerfull during this time. The had control over the entire Repbulic fleet and armies. They had more Jedi that could do more things, like battle meditation, seeing into future, hand to hand combat, healers, etc.etc.etc... The Jedi during Sidious time, and the thousands of years before then weren't much more then embassadors and political police. As such much of what the Jedi were was lost.
Whether the jedo order was it's most powerful or not it was firmly in control until order 66 and the defeat of Windu and the other jedi masters. On that night alone they were wiped out to the point of having to hide out because Sidious was firmly in control.
Originally posted by quanchi112
That's ridiculous to assume he faked losing. GL already stated Windu beat him. There's nothing to it more than someone wishing he didn't lose. I like Sidious a lot as well but he lost.Whether the jedo order was it's most powerful or not it was firmly in control until order 66 and the defeat of Windu and the other jedi masters. On that night alone they were wiped out to the point of having to hide out because Sidious was firmly in control.
But again... Sidious wipes out the Jedi, Bane wipes out the Brotherhood... This all comes down to them being about equal.
And I'll take it one step further... If bane could face Sidious with the Ob armor... I think Bane would win...