Originally posted by inimalist
because i feel you are right. it doesn't matter if the government is right wing or left wing, the trend seems to be co-opt more power for the state, and myself as a tax payer, I will forever be taken advantage of because I rationally want what is best for society.not to rant, but it is like the hypocrisy of the voter. They know the people in power wont do what the constituents want, but they feel the only way to change things is to vote, dig?
yeah, too true 😄
Originally posted by inimalist
well, cool, I'm happy to have things morally ambiguous, but do you admit this is a change in your opinion from the action of the rioters being justified beforeI'm happy to agree to some vague grey region.
Not at all, they have a myriad of justifications some intrinsic and others extrinsic. Whether we buy into these justifications or not is the question you should ask.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Not at all, they have a myriad of justifications some intrinsic and others extrinsic. Whether we buy into these justifications or not is the question you should ask.
I guess my point would be, you don't see the value in valuing morality in something other than what the actor thinks?
Like, as a regular human, you know various things are wrong, and being poor doesn't mean you forget this?
Originally posted by inimalist
I guess my point would be, you don't see the value in valuing morality in something other than what the actor thinks?Like, as a regular human, you know various things are wrong, and being poor doesn't mean you forget this?
Exactly. To hold a contrary view kinda insults everyone in that "class".
Originally posted by inimalist
I guess my point would be, you don't see the value in valuing morality in something other than what the actor thinks?Like, as a regular human, you know various things are wrong, and being poor doesn't mean you forget this?
We also know it's wrong to have an underclass; however, as long as they are not visable we have a tendency to forget them. It's easier to do that, in the same way it's easier to forget that the person who made my clothes probably earns less in a year than I do in a week.
That's also something we know is wrong, sometimes people do forget what's wrong when they are rich.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Exactly. To hold a contrary view kinda insults everyone in that "class".
not that it doesn't hold some truth
look at how many people would describe the LA riots as race riots, when mostly black businesses were destroyed by rioters
it is similar here, and my opinion is that, rather than people just not think about it as some form of political statement, you or I or anyone might be caught up the same way, and act out of basic psychology (informed by our upbringing as much as our genes), to commit either the most altruistic or heinous of actions, depending entirely on circumstance.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
We also know it's wrong to have an underclass; however, as long as they are not visable we have a tendency to forget them. It's easier to do that, in the same way it's easier to forget that the person who made my clothes probably earns less in a year than I do in a week.That's also something we know is wrong, sometimes people do forget what's wrong when they are rich.
ok, but this fails to adress why the underclass might be justified in attacking the rich
these types of riots normally see the underclass attacking the underclass, which is not even approached by the justifications you have given. Why is it ok for someone of the lower class to destroy a business owned by someone of the lower middle class, in an attempt to attack the upper class (who only benefit from this type of violence).
in my mind, if you think people are politically motivated in this way, you are arguing that people are stupid
Originally posted by inimalist
ok, but this fails to adress why the underclass might be justified in attacking the richthese types of riots normally see the underclass attacking the underclass, which is not even approached by the justifications you have given. Why is it ok for someone of the lower class to destroy a business owned by someone of the lower middle class, in an attempt to attack the upper class (who only benefit from this type of violence).
in my mind, if you think people are politically motivated in this way, you are arguing that people are stupid
I adressed that pages back. It's an attack on 'the system', 'it's jealousy' etc. These riots are not about just one thing. They are about multiple things originally catalysed by Duggan's death.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
I adressed that pages back. It's an attack on 'the system', 'it's jealousy' etc. These riots are not about just one thing.
I don't mean to sound dismissive, but you don't think that poor people can tell attacking the places poor people work is detrimental to their own survival?
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
We also know it's wrong to have an underclass; however, as long as they are not visable we have a tendency to forget them. It's easier to do that, in the same way it's easier to forget that the person who made my clothes probably earns less in a year than I do in a week.That's also something we know is wrong, sometimes people do forget what's wrong when they are rich.
what about people who arnt rich? so are you saying that the more money you have the less morals you have?
and this underclass? there are proberbly people they look down on too. it could go on forever, some one is always worse off than you, in one way or another
Originally posted by inimalist
I don't mean to sound dismissive, but you don't think that poor people can tell attacking the places poor people work is detrimental to their own survival?
You see that's the problem, you talk about it as though that's the norm in these riots. The norm has been main shopping areas and much bigger shops. Again you are looking for a blanket reason behind a variety of issues and situations. Interestingly Duggan had not fired and some news agencies are now reporting him as unarmed. It's also strange about the initial way the bullet in the radio was reported. Anyhow, time for bed.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
We also know it's wrong to have an underclass; however, as long as they are not visable we have a tendency to forget them. It's easier to do that, in the same way it's easier to forget that the person who made my clothes probably earns less in a year than I do in a week.That's also something we know is wrong, sometimes people do forget what's wrong when they are rich.
These people are visible all the time and I'd been one of them..
My social circles whilst being nowadays diverse, are so cause I broadened out, changed the ways I looked at things and improved myself slowly over a decade or so...but Im not rich.
The world has had a lot of people who were born without advantages yet rose to the top.
Drugs and alchohol do tend rob people of their ambition/sight of what they can be with time and effort though, and the cells they create for themselves can feel very very comfortable.
And after all, its easier for it to be everyone elses fault, isnt it?
Kinda takes the pressure off, and stops reality ruining the high, doesn't it...? (The entirely justified feeling high that anyone would feel entitled to cause things are so shit etc)
What I'd say to these people: Its never too late to change.
But that ain't gonna come from spending yer giro on gear then going out looting/killing.
Originally posted by inimalist
I don't mean to sound dismissive, but you don't think that poor people can tell attacking the places poor people work is detrimental to their own survival?
i agree! they're not making things any better for them selves. if anything they are making things worse. nottingham council are seriously discussing evicting any people convicted who live in state housing. what will that do to them and their familys? have they thought about the far reaching consiquences? i understand mob mentslity, but at some point these people must have made the conciouse decision to get involved in this!
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
You see that's the problem, you talk about it as though that's the norm in these riots. The norm has been main shopping areas and much bigger shops. Again you are looking for a blanket reason behind a variety of issues and situations. Interestingly Duggan had not fired and some news agencies are now reporting him as unarmed. It's also strange about the initial way the bullet in the radio was reported. Anyhow, time for bed.
just because they may be bigger shops does not mean poor people dont work there!
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
These people are visible all the time and I'd been one of them..
My social circles whilst being nowadays diverse, are so cause I broadened out, changed the ways I looked at things and improved myself slowly over a decade or so...but Im not rich.
The world has had a lot of people who were born without advantages yet rose to the top.
Drugs and alchohol do tend rob people of their ambition/sight of what they can be with time and effort though, and the cells they create for themselves can feel very very comfortable.
And after all, its easier for it to be everyone elses fault, isnt it?
Kinda takes the pressure off, and stops reality ruining the high, doesn't it...? (The enitely justified feeling high that anyone would feel entitlied to cause things are so shit etc)
What I'd say to these people: Its never too late to change.But that aint gonna come from spending yer giro on gear then going out looting/killing.
Well, I was going to bed but I will answer this, not because of the old meme on the internet, "someone is wrong", but to say well done for getting yourself out. You are right about drugs, I've seen a number of people including the person I loved most destroyed by them, it's why I don't even drink. I understand why some people feel justified in self medicating though, even though I don't hold their world view.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
You see that's the problem, you talk about it as though that's the norm in these riots. The norm has been main shopping areas and much bigger shops. Again you are looking for a blanket reason behind a variety of issues and situations. Interestingly Duggan had not fired and some news agencies are now reporting him as unarmed. It's also strange about the initial way the bullet in the radio was reported. Anyhow, time for bed.
but I'm not talking about the protests against the police
frankly, if you ask me, I don't know what would be effective in the modern world. If I did, I'd be an activist, I am just too cynical of any type of involvement to really foster genuine change. I, however, don't think you should say that the people looting TVs are there because they feel some genuine class warfare stress. They probably do, but in an indirect, "this is the modern grind" kind of way. I'm not trying to say this is good, or even preferable, but you probably shouldn't attribute the "everyone is doing it so I'm going to grab a TV" crowd to the same people who are against capitalism for genuine reasons of stratified inequities.
For instance, I'm sure if you had a survey of looters, most would classify as being regular voters, rather than belonging to some "anti-capitalist" extreme of the public. Again, this is entirely in line with empirical experiments done in social psychology
Originally posted by inimalist
but I'm not talking about the protests against the policefrankly, if you ask me, I don't know what would be effective in the modern world. If I did, I'd be an activist, I am just too cynical of any type of involvement to really foster genuine change. I, however, don't think you should say that the people looting TVs are there because they feel some genuine class warfare stress. They probably do, but in an indirect, "this is the modern grind" kind of way. I'm not trying to say this is good, or even preferable, but you probably shouldn't attribute the "everyone is doing it so I'm going to grab a TV" crowd to the same people who are against capitalism for genuine reasons of stratified inequities.
For instance, I'm sure if you had a survey of looters, most would classify as being regular voters, rather than belonging to some "anti-capitalist" extreme of the public. Again, this is entirely in line with [b]empirical
experiments done in social psychology [/B]
I haven't attributed any one reason to any one group. I haven't said anything is good either.