Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Not really, it's O.K. for Cameron to say things like the rioting is criminal and not political- Seems somewhat ironic and hypocritical considering the expenses fiddles of last year by politicians in the U.K. ran into thousands and most just gave the money back. It's O.K. to steal and think you can get away with it if you're rich or in political office, however if you're poor and steal a lot less. You face a long prison sentence.
thats... um.... well, I suppose that is interesting, but entirely unrelated to what I was asking about
remember, and I know this is hard to understand sometimes, just because someone doesn't support rioting/conspiracies/your opinion, doesn't mean they agree with the government/police/the opposite of your opinion
Originally posted by inimalist
thats... um.... well, I suppose that is interesting, but entirely unrelated to what I was asking about
It's completely related, it further adds to the them and us ethos amongst a large proportion of the English (not British) populace. It's very difficult for people who have never lived on the inner city estates of England to understand the level of social inequality and damage some aspects of the anti-community have.
so you are saying rioters are justified in attacking buildings that have nothing to do with the government, stealing and destroying property that belongs to other middle and low class people, which provides jobs for middle and low class people, infrastructure that provides for middle and low class people, because government is hypocritical?
like, that is the moral justification for these riots to you?
Originally posted by inimalist
so you are saying rioters are justified in attacking buildings that have nothing to do with the government, stealing and destroying property that belongs to other middle and low class people, which provides jobs for middle and low class people, infrastructure that provides for middle and low class people, because government is hypocritical? However the inability of people to look at things in any kind of flexible fashion and from any point of view but there own, this though is the out of sight out of mind mentality which eventually has to moderate its views in light of continued problems.Ha, a cabinet minister would not even appear on question time.
like, that is the moral justification for these riots to you?
This is your big error, I haven't said anything is justified, I have said from the perspective of the rioters world view it may well be justified and given a million reasons why their world view is like that. In terms of entitlement and social inequality, many would argue no one is entitled to anything and have to work for everything. It is easy to argue this in itself is flawed as the playing field for this sort of ladder, is not level, this is not a meritocracy and some people are born into entitlement. It could also be argued the wealthier an individual or group is the more they seem entitled to something for nothing and the more this position is defended by the state. These are all very old arguments and all are difficult to completely dismiss, if you can get your head around the World is a big place.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
This is your big error, I haven't said anything is justified, I have said from the perspective of the rioters world view it may well be justified and given a million reasons why their world view is like that
go back and read your answers starting on page 4. this entire conversation has been you saying there is justification for the riots
Originally posted by inimalist
go back and read your answers starting on page 4. this entire conversation has been you saying there is justification for the riots
There is justification to the riots, the question as I have told you multiple times is if you buy into that justification. That is an opinion and it is something which depends on an individuals world view. You believe there isn't, I believe the reasons for the riots are far more complex than you think. It's far more than just criminality, that is part of it and in itself a justification for a career criminal and his world view which deviates from your norm.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
There is justification to the riots, the question as I have told you multiple times is if you buy into that justification. That is an opinion and it is something which depends on an individuals world view. You believe there isn't, I believe the reasons for the riots are far more complex than you think. It's far more than just criminality, that is part of it and in itself a justification for a career criminal and his world view which deviates from your norm.
I think the issue here is that justification can be taken to mean "a good reason" -- as in "my actions were justified" -- where as your argument is basically that there are underlying reasons of debatable quality.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I think the issue here is that justification can be taken to mean "a good reason" -- as in "my actions were justified" -- where as your argument is basically that there are underlying reasons of debatable quality.
A good reason is subjective to any individual. It's coming out now that good areas in London were protected on Monday night, whereas poorer areas were not.
I just saw a report of a shopkeeper who lost two sons to the riots when they and their friend were run over while trying to defend their father's shop.
The shopkeeper was amazingly composed given his grief, he asked the rioters exactly what they intend to accomplish.
I don't think anyone can really give him a good answer to that. Certainly not the people who killed his sons.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I just saw a report of a shopkeeper who lost two sons to the riots when they and their friend were run over while trying to defend their father's shop.The shopkeeper was amazingly composed given his grief, he asked the rioters exactly what they intend to accomplish.
I don't think anyone can really give him a good answer to that. Certainly not the people who killed his sons.
That was in Birmingham, the riots there were much more opportunistic than the riots in London. In London the Flashpoint was the death of a man that has been accused of being a gangster by some quarters, this is by no means a fact that has been verified yet. The media packaging of this is very strange as they are lumping all the riots in as one thing, they are not and a variety of different groups was involved in each. I agree Mr. Jahan showed great dignity and was a very sane head.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
That was in Birmingham, the riots there were much more opportunistic than the riots in London. In London the Flashpoint was the death of a man that has been accused of being a gangster by some quarters, this is by no means a fact that has been verified yet. The media packaging of this is very strange as they are lumping all the riots in as one thing, they are not and a variety of different groups was involved in each. I agree Mr. Jahan showed great dignity and was a very sane head.
It doesn't seem like there's a lot going on in any of these riots that could be described as political.
Hell the fact that in almost all cases rather than confronting police (as would be the bread and butter of a political riot) the rioters flee when police arrive in force and scatter to another shopping center.
Trying to paint this as a struggle for freedom/social equality or anything more than thuggish civil disorder is like thinking the Somalian Pirates are Romantic Swashbucklers.
Anarchy UK, I think you have to realise there is no justification for the riots.
If your opinion really is "there is justification for the rioters causing death, destruction and promoting thievery", the you can only agree there is justification for the government to do that as well. Or is the justification simply, 'They do it, why can't we?'
Getting to your point that these people are all rioting because of a real reason, which I think is what you are trying to say, then I can only agree that there is a reason for these rioters...many reasons.
Stupidity is one of them.
Nearly got arrested today for tying my shoe. To add to that, they are rounding up loads of suspects now, it's actually a bit scary.
A friend of mine was arrested and questioned for around 1 1/2 hours because he looked like someone in a picture. It's all ****ed now.
I saw very little political banners and activity, and believe me, I would be one of the first to know about political activity, at least in Liverpool. A few friends were out the other night during some chaos going on in Toxteth, which is a low-income area using the best, choicest words to describe it. Then again, Toxteth has always been a hotbed of unrest and such, came as no surprise when things started to kick off there.
I've heard some kids were arrested for 6 months for stealing water bottles. Nothing like police backlash after they botched it all up. They know it too and they're humiliated, now they're going to do everything to try and save face.
Won't be surprised if more rioting breaks out.
Originally posted by LiberatorI knew this was going to happen.
Nearly got arrested today for tying my shoe. To add to that, they are rounding up loads of suspects now, it's actually a bit scary.A friend of mine was arrested and questioned for around 1 1/2 hours because he looked like someone in a picture. It's all ****ed now.
Originally posted by LiberatorI agree. This will get worse and worse, but that is because of the backlash and media coverage.
I saw very little political banners and activity, and believe me, I would be one of the first to know about political activity, at least in Liverpool. A few friends were out the other night during some chaos going on in Toxteth, which is a low-income area using the best, choicest words to describe it. Then again, Toxteth has always been a hotbed of unrest and such, came as no surprise when things started to kick off there.I've heard some kids were arrested for 6 months for stealing water bottles. Nothing like police backlash after they botched it all up. They know it too and they're humiliated, now they're going to do everything to try and save face.
Won't be surprised if more rioting breaks out.
By contrast, BBC1 just showed "One flew over the cuckoos nest". It is pretty interesting to see how rebellion begins.
I can't really say more than "monkey see, monkey do" at this point.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Whether its in London or in Birmingham doesn't really matter.It doesn't seem like there's a lot going on in any of these riots that could be described as political.
Hell the fact that in almost all cases rather than confronting police (as would be the bread and butter of a political riot) the rioters flee when police arrive in force and scatter to another shopping center.
Trying to paint this as a struggle for freedom/social equality or anything more than thuggish civil disorder is like thinking the Somalian Pirates are Romantic Swashbucklers.
Well the riots themselves are basically a political act, they are the act of a disenfranchised group striking out against a society they are not part of. Taking from those that have more has always been an action to bring about notice at least, if not social change from those that have more.
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Well the riots themselves are basically a political act, they are the act of a disenfranchised group striking out against a society they are not part of. Taking from those that have more has always been an action to bring about notice at least, if not social change from those that have more.
They're not political at all.
They're a bunch of thugs attacking shops of the same damn society they're part of. There is absolutely no chance of them effecting any positive social change by looting shops.
Come off this shit.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Lol what?They're not political at all.
They're a bunch of thugs attacking shops of the same damn society they're part of. There is absolutely no chance of them effecting any positive social change by looting shops.
Come off this shit.
No they are not part of that society, that's the problem. It's only now some politicians are starting to see that. Can I ask where you are from?
Originally posted by Anarchy UK
No they are not part of that society
they are attacking stores and infrastructure in the same places they live
they are hurting only those who provide local jobs, the local economy, or local government services
therefore, they are only hurting themselves
the extent of the political meaning here is "I'm pissed so I'm going to go crazy and break stuff"
for ****s sake, seriously, by calling this political, you are tarnishing the very idea of political organization and resistance.