Tottenham Riots

Started by Anarchy UK15 pages

Originally posted by inimalist
they are attacking stores and infrastructure in the same places they live

they are hurting only those who provide local jobs, the local economy, or local government services

therefore, they are only hurting themselves

the extent of the political meaning here is "I'm pissed so I'm going to go crazy and break stuff"

for ****s sake, seriously, by calling this political, you are tarnishing the very idea of political organization and resistance.

Not at all, peasant revolts involving breaking there own stuff are incredibly common throughout history. To say nothing of Prison demonstrations, prisoners have often smashed up blocks and even covered themselves in their own faeces as a method of demonstration. This is where a lot of these people are coming from, others have different reasons and some are opportunists and criminals, they have different reasons for there actions which they would justify. In many the truth is they have a different outlook and set of boundaries to the norm. This actually can be traced throughout history, you could even argue some are following a similar code to Viking raiders or tribal raiding. Lot's of different justifications, based on human nature, sociology etc. The majority of people arrested 83% were adults, that says something in itself.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Not at all, peasant revolts involving breaking there own stuff are incredibly common throughout history. To say nothing of Prison demonstrations, prisoners have often smashed up blocks and even covered themselves in their own faeces as a method of demonstration. This is where a lot of these people are coming from, others have different reasons and some are opportunists and criminals, they have different reasons for there actions which they would justify. In many the truth is they have a different outlook and set of boundaries to the norm. This actually can be traced throughout history, you could even argue some are following a similar code to Viking raiders or tribal raiding. Lot's of different justifications, based on human nature, sociology etc. The majority of people arrested 83% were adults, that says something in itself.

just to throw it out there, I have been arguing that simple psychological explanations (ie: human nature) are much more relevant in this than are political motivations.

In fact, prison riots follow this theme almost to a T, as do most riots of this nature in human history.

Off the top of my head, MAYBE the Weather Underground riots don't (actually, I'd suspect some of the stuff in Greece recently doesn't, but many of those incidents are actual attacks by anarchist groups, rather than spontaneous riots)

and besides, again you are in the position of arguing that people act out politically by destroying the very things that support them, ie: the people motivated for political reasons are not aware enough to attack things that are actually oppressing them.

Originally posted by inimalist
just to throw it out there, I have been arguing that simple psychological explanations (ie: human nature) are much more relevant in this than are political motivations.

In fact, prison riots follow this theme almost to a T, as do most riots of this nature in human history.

Off the top of my head, MAYBE the Weather Underground riots don't (actually, I'd suspect some of the stuff in Greece recently doesn't, but many of those incidents are actual attacks by anarchist groups, rather than spontaneous riots)

and besides, again you are in the position of arguing that people act out politically by destroying the very things that support them, ie: the people motivated for political reasons are not aware enough to attack things that are actually oppressing them.

Not at all, you are refusing to see what happened as more than one culture; that's your error in this. Sometimes the things people have to support them are actually things which are keeping them down in the first place. Your views are far to simplistic in this.

expand my mind then

EDIT: further, why not give me your understanding of the Stanford Prison Experiment, and how that might relate. Or, the Ashe Conformity experiments, diffusion of responsibility, crowd modelling dynamics, group think, the effects of anonymity on feelings of personal responsibility... you know, all the relevant stuff...

because my view is so simplistic, I'd love you to inform it

Originally posted by inimalist
expand my mind then

If you take a step back and read my points in a neutral fashion you may start to understand. I would suggest perhaps sitting under a lotus tree.

Some of the other things I haven't even touched upon is actually how overcrowded and urban England is. This in itself is likely to breed deviance and multiple subcultures, this overcrowding may well lead to social viruses being much more common. The question is do these social viruses transform the DNA of a society, merely make it deviate from the norm (in the establishments view become sick) temporarily, or lead to an attempt to look for some sort of solution, which may well involve rewriting the very code of that social system; who is to say capitalism is not undergoing a global change and this is merely another symptom of a much wider transformation.

Edit: Why try and lock me into the discussion you want and not be more flexible in how your mind works, have some ideas of your own perhaps.

well, yes

but when you want to shoe horn world events in to a specific narrative, you can find that all events support your position

oh, Stanford Prison Experiment? we'll keep it to just that one for now, given how popular it is. If you want, we can delve right into the more tricky areas of psych

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Edit: Why try and lock me into the discussion you want and not be more flexible in how your mind works, have some ideas of your own perhaps.

the correlation between increasingly insulting rhetoric and having a legitimate point is strongly negative

I'd guess somewhere in the R = -.6 area

Originally posted by inimalist
well, yes

but when you want to shoe horn world events in to a specific narrative, you can find that all events support your position

oh, Stanford Prison Experiment? we'll keep it to just that one for now, given how popular it is. If you want, we can delve right into the more tricky areas of psych

the correlation between increasingly insulting rhetoric and having a legitimate point is strongly negative

I'd guess somewhere in the R = -.6 area

No one is insulting you, calm down. I would suggest again you take a step back. I could ask you to read anyone on the Sociology of deviance and Crime and punishment from the Functionalist point of view to the Marxist point of view, like the psychologists at Stanford they will have a perspective. I'd rather you integrated what you have read into your arguments rather than just regurgitating what you have read and applying it to a situation you are external to and are only receiving information on through Alice's looking glass.

You're obviously a bright guy, but you rarely put forward anything of your own in my opinion.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
No one is insulting you, calm down. I would suggest again you take a step back. I could ask you to read anyone on the Sociology of deviance and Crime and punishment from the Functionalist point of view to the Marxist point of view, like the psychologists at Stanford they will have a perspective. I'd rather you integrated what you have read into your arguments rather than just regurgitating what you have read and applying it to a situation you are external to and are only receiving information on through Alice's looking glass.

You're obviously a bright guy, but you rarely put forward anything of your own in my opinion.

well, yes

I've been interested in understanding your opinion, beyond telling me that I am simple

In fact, if you look back at the 9+ pages of discussion, you will see that you never once asked me for my opinion, though you did often assume my feelings

boiled down, riots almost always reflect a breakdown in local contextual order whereby people feel less responsible for their actions, become part of a group, which provides even less feelings of personal accountability and a degree of anonymity, etc.

sure, you can tell me to go read whatever you want. I can tell you the real world experiments you can run to show what I'm talking about. God, the most arrogant part of your position is that you think you are the only person who has read marx or foucolt. trust me, my friend, you aren't the first person to introduce me to social narratives, and you probably shouldn't take that stance if you want people to think you have something meaningful to say.

what part of what book would you like me to read? I'm on campus and can go pull it out of the library. I'll take you up on any challenge like that, lol.

Originally posted by inimalist
well, yes

I've been interested in understanding your opinion, beyond telling me that I am simple

In fact, if you look back at the 9+ pages of discussion, you will see that you never once asked me for my opinion, though you did often assume my feelings

boiled down, riots almost always reflect a breakdown in local contextual order whereby people feel less responsible for their actions, become part of a group, which provides even less feelings of personal accountability and a degree of anonymity, etc.

sure, you can tell me to go [b]read whatever you want. I can tell you the real world experiments you can run to show what I'm talking about. God, the most arrogant part of your position is that you think you are the only person who has read marx or foucolt. trust me, my friend, you aren't the first person to introduce me to social narratives, and you probably shouldn't take that stance if you want people to think you have something meaningful to say.

what part of what book would you like me to read? I'm on campus and can go pull it out of the library. I'll take you up on any challenge like that, lol. [/B]

Why do you think I don't think you've read some of the same books as I? At no point have I given my opinion, I have given a variety of justifications which could be used. At the moment I don't fully understand any of the riots beyond the original one resulting from Duggan's death. Why would I challenge you to looking up a study? That's your method of arguing not mine, now in relation to Stanford and prisons put forward how you think it fits in, that's all I'm asking, that's how a discussion works. The reason I'm asking you to do that is because I am interested in your views, I would hope as we have been conversing for sometime you are interested in mine, however I get the feeling and I may be wrong, you see this as winning an argument. That shouldn't be what discussion is about and with politics it almost never is, because people have relatavistic views.

I'm going to use your favourite question to me:

"How do you see Stanford fitting this scenario", prior to your reply, I would say it certainly might fit some of the riots, but not all.

they are attacking stores and infrastructure in the same places they live

they are hurting only those who provide local jobs, the local economy, or local government services

therefore, they are only hurting themselves

the extent of the political meaning here is "I'm pissed so I'm going to go crazy and break stuff"

for ****s sake, seriously, by calling this political, you are tarnishing the very idea of political organization and resistance.


The idea is that the blacks doing this will get some white guilt money flowing to them.

Sky news is interviewing looters. One said he stole nappies for his son...he's 16.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Sky news is interviewing looters. One said he stole nappies for his son...he's 16.

Underclass, but I would take all that interview with a pinch of salt. The kid even gets where he applied for a job and allegedly went back to rob. No Clapham Currys.

Stanford Prison Experiments

The Stanford Prison experiments show the enormous power of social context on the way people behave.

In the experiment, randomly selected people, who were screened for psychological issues, were either prison guards or prisoners.

Simply giving people that distinction, and dressing them in either "guard" or "prisoner, cause them to adopt a completely different persona of either extreme sadism or of helplessness.

The connection here is that, if you put people in a situation where the context would suggest a different behaviour than the one they normally experience, people quickly fill that role, even if it is a role of abuse. When riots start, or when there is a breakdown of social order, people will act in ways that are entirely contrary to their usual behaviour.

Ashe Conformity Experiments

In these experiments, Ashe had one subject in a room with 9 people who were only acting like subjects. They were all shown 3 lines of clearly different length, and asked to identify which was the longest. Importantly, the subject was told this was part of an eye test, so their ability to see the longest line was actually reflective of their perception.

In the experiment, the fake subjects all said the shortest line was longest, and iirc, this caused a huge majority of people to also say the short line was longest. There are two relevant things here. The first is the control of individuals that group dynamics have. Even though the long line was clearly longer, people would give answers they knew to be false in order to seem like part of the group. More interestingly, the subject thought the study was about perceptual abilities. In this regard, not only did they give a wrong answer, they gave a wrong answer that reflected poorly on them. They were willing to let the experimenter think they had poor eyesight so that they gave the same answer as everyone else. Further, this wasn't a group that identified with poor eyesight, or really anything. What I mean is that, the group the subjects conformed to wasn't an actual group in any way, there would be no sense of loyalty or friendship to persuade this person to give the wrong answer. It is as though the subject would give knowingly false answers that reflected poorly upon themselves for no other reason than to belong to a group of strangers who aren't actually affiliated in any way.

The obvious parallel to riots from this is that, as individuals, we have an extreme bias toward acting and thinking as others do. When social order starts to break down and the context of behaviour changes, it spreads very quickly by people feeling the need to participate in something that looks like a group.

diffusion of responsibility

numerous studies have shown that, the larger a group is, the less likely any individual in that group is going to take responsibility for actions. So like, if you witness an assault, and you are alone, you are far more likely to do something to stop it, than if you are in a large group of people. The theory is that, because there are more people there who could do something about it, you feel less pressure to be the one who does.

The connection here is obvious, as if there are numerous people rioting, it is less of your responsibility to do something about it

crowd modelling dynamics

while it is true that modeling the behaviour of individuals is extremely difficult, modeling crowds is not. This is because, as groups, people respond more to how the group behaves than how they would as individuals (see above).

In the case of riots, this indicates that people aren't acting as individual "political" actors, but rather as part of a group, their behaviour defined largely by the local contextual dynamics.

Group Think

Because of all of the above reasons, it is very difficult for dissenting views to appear in a group. Thus, once riots have started, it is almost certain that they aren't going to stop because someone thinks it is bad.

Anonymity and Responsibility

Another part of acting as a group is the loss of identity. People feel less of an individual when they are part of a group. When you feel this anonymity, you are able to act in ways that you normally would not, because of social repercussions. The internet is a perfect example of this.

So, being part of a group that is rioting makes one feel as though they aren't responsible for the actions they are performing.

other stuff

most action is not motivated by "top-down" sorts of "I feel this way, so I will do this thing". Rather, it is motivated by "bottom-up" sorts of logic, "I did this thing, so I must have a reason for it". This comes from tones of evidence, most notably that of work done on split brain paitents by Gazanaga. Further, when you look at the work of Libet, you find that our motivations for behaviour come after we are already ready to perform the action, meaning that, consciously, we aren't in control, but rather, our conscious awareness reflects what our subconscious has already prepared to do, not the other way around.

thus, these riots almost certainly reflect group dynamics and psychology in a situation of decontextualized social order where people feel less responsibility to act in a socially constructive manner, and, as they get caught up into it, basically feed off of general social psychological mechanisms. Any political aspect to it would be on the part of the observer, trying to define people's behaviour as "this" or "that", rather than trying to understand the underlying behaviour of people in general. If you want, we can extend this to other riots, like those in LA or those after the death of Indra Ghandi, and we will see that these very mundane aspects of human psychology are a far superior explanation for riots than is any appeal to class struggle or unifying political analysis.

[sociology is such a joke]

Originally posted by inimalist
[b]Stanford Prison Experiments

The Stanford Prison experiments show the enormous power of social context on the way people behave.

In the experiment, randomly selected people, who were screened for psychological issues, were either prison guards or prisoners.

Simply giving people that distinction, and dressing them in either "guard" or "prisoner, cause them to adopt a completely different persona of either extreme sadism or of helplessness.

The connection here is that, if you put people in a situation where the context would suggest a different behaviour than the one they normally experience, people quickly fill that role, even if it is a role of abuse. When riots start, or when there is a breakdown of social order, people will act in ways that are entirely contrary to their usual behaviour.

Ashe Conformity Experiments

In these experiments, Ashe had one subject in a room with 9 people who were only acting like subjects. They were all shown 3 lines of clearly different length, and asked to identify which was the longest. Importantly, the subject was told this was part of an eye test, so their ability to see the longest line was actually reflective of their perception.

In the experiment, the fake subjects all said the shortest line was longest, and iirc, this caused a huge majority of people to also say the short line was longest. There are two relevant things here. The first is the control of individuals that group dynamics have. Even though the long line was clearly longer, people would give answers they knew to be false in order to seem like part of the group. More interestingly, the subject thought the study was about perceptual abilities. In this regard, not only did they give a wrong answer, they gave a wrong answer that reflected poorly on them. They were willing to let the experimenter think they had poor eyesight so that they gave the same answer as everyone else. Further, this wasn't a group that identified with poor eyesight, or really anything. What I mean is that, the group the subjects conformed to wasn't an actual group in any way, there would be no sense of loyalty or friendship to persuade this person to give the wrong answer. It is as though the subject would give knowingly false answers that reflected poorly upon themselves for no other reason than to belong to a group of strangers who aren't actually affiliated in any way.

The obvious parallel to riots from this is that, as individuals, we have an extreme bias toward acting and thinking as others do. When social order starts to break down and the context of behaviour changes, it spreads very quickly by people feeling the need to participate in something that looks like a group.

diffusion of responsibility

numerous studies have shown that, the larger a group is, the less likely any individual in that group is going to take responsibility for actions. So like, if you witness an assault, and you are alone, you are far more likely to do something to stop it, than if you are in a large group of people. The theory is that, because there are more people there who could do something about it, you feel less pressure to be the one who does.

The connection here is obvious, as if there are numerous people rioting, it is less of your responsibility to do something about it

crowd modelling dynamics

while it is true that modeling the behaviour of individuals is extremely difficult, modeling crowds is not. This is because, as groups, people respond more to how the group behaves than how they would as individuals (see above).

In the case of riots, this indicates that people aren't acting as individual "political" actors, but rather as part of a group, their behaviour defined largely by the local contextual dynamics.

Group Think

Because of all of the above reasons, it is very difficult for dissenting views to appear in a group. Thus, once riots have started, it is almost certain that they aren't going to stop because someone thinks it is bad.

Anonymity and Responsibility

Another part of acting as a group is the loss of identity. People feel less of an individual when they are part of a group. When you feel this anonymity, you are able to act in ways that you normally would not, because of social repercussions. The internet is a perfect example of this.

So, being part of a group that is rioting makes one feel as though they aren't responsible for the actions they are performing.

other stuff

most action is not motivated by "top-down" sorts of "I feel this way, so I will do this thing". Rather, it is motivated by "bottom-up" sorts of logic, "I did this thing, so I must have a reason for it". This comes from tones of evidence, most notably that of work done on split brain paitents by Gazanaga. Further, when you look at the work of Libet, you find that our motivations for behaviour come after we are already ready to perform the action, meaning that, consciously, we aren't in control, but rather, our conscious awareness reflects what our subconscious has already prepared to do, not the other way around.

thus, these riots almost certainly reflect group dynamics and psychology in a situation of decontextualized social order where people feel less responsibility to act in a socially constructive manner, and, as they get caught up into it, basically feed off of general social psychological mechanisms. Any political aspect to it would be on the part of the observer, trying to define people's behaviour as "this" or "that", rather than trying to understand the underlying behaviour of people in general. If you want, we can extend this to other riots, like those in LA or those after the death of Indra Ghandi, and we will see that these very mundane aspects of human psychology are a far superior explanation for riots than is any appeal to class struggle or unifying political analysis.

[sociology is such a joke] [/B]

Sample groups of 9 are pretty funny too. :-) Behavioural Psychology is so easy to get the result you want- like any subjective study. Which is why you have different schools of behavioural psychology.

the only psychology that uses sample groups that low normally subject people to hundreds of trials, bringing the n into the thousands

lol, versus the fact that I've never seen a p value in sociology literature [sic]

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
The idea is that the blacks doing this will get some white guilt money flowing to them.

genius!

Originally posted by inimalist
the only psychology that uses sample groups that low normally subject people to hundreds of trials, bringing the n into the thousands

lol, versus the fact that I've never seen a p value in sociology literature [sic]

You see some of what you have copy and paste integrated is relevant, however psychology as a tendancy to deny culture, this is an error. Well were hundreds of trials done? That's not clear. Well something like a census is an example of sociology, p values can be applied pretty easily.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
Underclass, but I would take all that interview with a pinch of salt. The kid even gets where he applied for a job and allegedly went back to rob. No Clapham Currys.
Yeah, Sky news just edited that bit out for the normal report.

Loads of bias in Sky News to blame the government for this.

I know the government is partly to blame but saying these youths were fully educated and intelligent is wrong...they were idiots.

Originally posted by Anarchy UK
You see some of what you have copy and paste integrated is relevant, however psychology as a tendancy to deny culture, this is an error. Well were hundreds of trials done? That's not clear. Well something like a census is an example of sociology, p values can be applied pretty easily.

ummm... a census doesn't test a hypothesis, so it would actually be impossible to apply a p value

also... y-you don't read much psych literature, do you? The past 10-15 years have seen excessive study of culture

in terms of N and other things, the studies I mentioned are the type you would find in intro psych courses and have been both studied and replicated hundreds of times, under different conditions, and yes, one of those conditions being cultural. On a forum like this, I would rarely bring up something requiring someone to have a degree to know about it. For instance, knowing the minutia about what type of group association is going on in the Ashe experiments, which is a valid area of discussion, really isn't relevant to the discussion here. If you want, I'm more than happy to talk about belonging versus conformity versus self-doubt etc, with regard to why people would or would not select the wrong line, but that isn't an aspect of my argument. In fact, I'd argue that whichever type of group dynamic is being utilized, the results are the same in a context of rioting

YouTube video

remember, this is the result of deliberate political action, not random violence as a result of human psychology and situational factors

these people are victims of political violence, remember, political violence directed against them. Not people caught up in the moment, but people who deliberately targeted part of society they didn't feel a part of

[sic]