Hal Jordan vs. Thor

Originally posted by Mindset
I doubt much thought was given to it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Of course, so we take it as a high feat for both men. nobody's trying to paint that as the average.

Originally posted by -Pr-
And that's where we disagree, as I've said before. I'm not casually dismissing a thing.

If current Hal's power levels are sufficient to perform a feat he performed pre crisis and is a valid use of said power, then the feat is valid.

That's how it is, and Bada and I have talked about this at length.

Standard GLs doesn't have any worthwhile catalogue of post-Crisis energy/matter/spatial/time manipulation at all. Standard PC GLs did, in spades. That supremely watered down, nearly non-existent catalogue of over 25 years doesn't provide a sufficient basis for presuming they never lost this expert aptitude. It specifically tends against it.

Assuming those abilities are still "valid" and remain at the same level currently, as a basis for assuming the validity of older feats that completely oustrip anything currently seen, appears even more dubious when current evidence actually denies standard GLs that level of expert energy/matter/spatial/time manipulation capabilities. I'll always believe this whole "exception to the rule" is simply a one-sided and unsupported assumption based on another unsupported assumption which tends against a long history and even debunked directly by current evidence. I've been shown nothing otherwise.

Originally posted by Galan007
Obviously a LOT of thought was given to it. Starbreaker has several other battles the writer could have chose to retell- yet he chose that [pre-crisis] one.

How does that story being retold change anything I said?

Originally posted by Mindset
I doubt much thought was given to how much force was being exerted onto Hal's construct.

So we agree I'm right. ermm13

'course. vin

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I think you're assuming your conclusion with that "validity" angle.

Standard GLs doesn't have any worthwhile catalogue of post-Crisis energy/matter/spatial/time manipulation at all. Standard PC GLs did, in spades. That supremely watered down, nearly non-existent catalogue of over 25 years doesn't provide a sufficient basis for presuming they never lost this expert aptitude. It specifically tends against it.

Assuming those abilities are still "valid" and remain at the same level currently, as a basis for assuming the validity of older feats that completely oustrip anything currently seen, appears even more dubious when current evidence actually denies standard GLs that level of expert energy/matter/spatial/time manipulation capabilities. I'll always believe this whole "exception to the rule" is simply a one-sided and unsupported assumption based on another unsupported assumption which tends against a long history and even debunked directly by current evidence. I've been shown nothing otherwise.

I just told you it wasn't up for discussion; what part of that did you not understand?

I don't mind if you don't like it, but the fact is, you don't get to try to insult my intelligence under the guise of fair debate.

Bada and I didn't make the decision lightly. You might not like it, but it was a thought out, considered decision. We went through it at length, and it was not nearly a quick decision. It is as it is.

Ah well that makes this fight different.. Hal can teleport and phase through Thor's attacks, and keep hitting him from behind.

Id still say Thor wins though, but including ALL Hal's feats from his history as GL makes this a much tougher fight for Thor.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ah well that makes this fight different.. Hal can teleport and phase through Thor's attacks, and keep hitting him from behind.

Id still say Thor wins though, but including ALL Hal's feats from his history as GL makes this a much tougher fight for Thor.

Have you seen some of Hal's older feats? They're pretty insane. Even PC Superman was shocked and amazed on how much power he wielded.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I just told you it wasn't up for discussion; what part of that did you not understand?

I don't mind if you don't like it, but the fact is, you don't get to try to insult my intelligence under the guise of fair debate.

Bada and I didn't make the decision lightly. You might not like it, but it was a thought out, considered decision. We went through it at length, and it was not nearly a quick decision. It is as it is.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ah well that makes this fight different.. Hal can teleport and phase through Thor's attacks, and keep hitting him from behind.

Id still say Thor wins though, but including ALL Hal's feats from his history as GL makes this a much tougher fight for Thor.

Wouldn't that put GLs in the high trans to skyfather levels?

^ Not taking the bait. Guy Gardner wrecks house. I'm content.

Also nice Freudian e-slip with associating "green" along with "trans" and "skyfather." vin

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
We get it. You have a theory that is so obvious, yet so subtle, it completely justifies your personal intepretation of comics. And basically, despite the contradictory, one-sided, arbitrary nature of it all, you just happen to be the only arbiter of how to correctly interpret and apply the theory.

I haven't dealt with self-serving theories like this before, ever.

But whatever. I explained my original unextraordinary statement when pushed and highlighted your transparent quaneuvers. I don't care enough to take it another step further to completely deconstruct your semi-retarded theory as it hasn't even merited serious discussion, much less a strident troll-cult following, like the other hairbrained self-serving theories I've encountered on KMC.

And whatever merit your theory might have against specific arguments (like that Surfer/star core/Thor argument), it's simply and wholly needless until somebody makes those ridiculous extrapolatory arguments. And it definitely doesn't justify undermining an entire set of feats in a blatantly one-sided manner against people who aren't even offending your "truly sincere underlying" concerns.

Your position of throwing cosmic feats on the same batch with actual, direct combat performance is laughable. But what can I expect from the same genius who was asking the Wolverine side to show that he is [u]more supersonic than Captain America a few weeks ago.[/u] The fact that you're debating street levelers in terms of Mach number shows how much of a nitwit you are, and how you don't really understand the medium in which this takes place.

That's exactly the same thing you're doing right now. But instead of debating the 'street level cheese', you're attributing actual power relevance to the 'cosmic level cheese' and debating them at face-value, without actually considering that they're thrown away feats that the writers don't actually put much thought into, when the following issues they show the characters hurt by much less. In cases, infinitely less. And that's where we're going to discuss right now.

You remember your stretchings in the Zoom thread, for the anti-Odin side to stay by with their stance, and say just how many punches Zoom can throw and how many 'Odins' can he beat? Not that your hypocrisy wasn't demonstrated right then and there, since you're one of the primary proponents for Thor having nanosecond (😂 ) combat speed, yet if I were to ask you right now whether or not Thor could deliver more than a billion punches in a second, would you still stand by that statement? Obviously, I'm ignoring the time you actually said Thor is 'faster than instantly' because that is just too stupid to pursue. haermm

Argument: You used the argument that Surfer fought in a blackhole to further your position.

Reference:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
black hole battle-grounding

Scan: http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9323/galactusthedevourer217yj3.jpg

"...within the dying star's black heart..."

Test: Inside a blackhole's heart, there is infinite gravity, crushing matter into infinite density. Do you stand by your assessment, and say that Surfer is infinitely durable, and in order for him to be hurt force greater than infinity would have to be applied?

The same thing goes for Red Shift.

The same thing goes for Superman.

--

Reference: Rookie Kyle Rayner contained a supernova.

Scan:

Test: Containing a supernova is about the equivalent of containing 10 trillion hydrogen bombs. That is 10^13 of a hydrogen bomb. That is 100000000000000 hydrogen bombs. Do you stand by your assessement that, if Kyle Rayner was focusing his shields, every other top tier would have to exert more energy than 100000000000000 times a hydrogen bomb to break it?

We can go on about how other people have bathed in blackhols or even held them inside their fist. How some have had Supernovas explode in their face. How they bath inside the sun, and the implications of that. How, for example, Gladiator has destroyed a planet by punching it. Would you like me to expand that, and see how much force it would be necessary for something fist-sized to destroy an average-sized planet by simply hitting it?

If we take 'cosmic cheese' at face value, in many cases, we end up with infinitely durable, infinitely strong characters. In some cases, nigh so. Would all of the above be in accordance with what's displayed on panel inside the comics? Do you think that nothing less than infinite force injures the likes of Surfer or Superman? Would you rather debate which one is more infinitely durable than the other, in a "Show me Wolverine is more supersonic than Captain America" type of discussions, typical of you? 😂

Do you stand by your initial statement, and say that those type of feats and thus what they imply are just as relevant as direct comparisons in battle?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Not taking the bait. Guy Gardner wrecks house. I'm content.

Also nice Freudian e-slip with associating "green" along with "trans" and "skyfather." vin

😄

@Philosophia: You're making an imaginary argument with an imaginary poster. If I were arguing that nobody could kill Thor because he can contain 1/5 universe busting blasts and redirect galaxy busting energies and outwrestle planetary+ weights, your protestations would be cogent in that narrow specific context.

I never used Cap's bullet-timing to suggest that Wolverine requires bonified supersonic speed to combat him or that Cap can beat a subsonic speedster in a footrace. I used Cap's bullet-timing to support that he's faster than Wolverine who doesn't have as many of those feats. And I'd use em to support that Cap'll likely perform bullet-timing feats again on-panel. Neither of those conclusions should offend your delicate sensibilities since that actually bears out on-panel.

So within the four corners of the comic book, I can accept these conclusions as true. I don't need to needlessly extrapolate it further and justify a wholesale banishing of events within comics. In the Matrix movie, Neo dodged several bullets. But he wasn't running at supersonic speeds to get to his exit at the climax. It didn't ruin the movie for me, firstly. Second, I didn't walk around trying to force people to admit that they're dumb for essentially concluding that Neo runs at supersonic speeds (since they weren't making those conclusions). Third, and most importantly, I'm not going to force people to deny that he can dodge bullets in the first place and that they should act like it didn't happen.

Your space cheese argumentation is wholly needless, and therefore, completely baseless. You're countering imaginary arguments and, to be frank, you're doing it in a one-sided manner. So I'm doubly unconvinced you have established any sort of pretense to criticize how I read comics.

I love how you completely missed the point, and further strengthened what I said. Yes, that's exactly what you are doing. You're pointing out the feats, but you're not acknowledging the absurdity of what they imply, because that would ridicule your entire argument. It's exactly what you tried to have the Zoom side in the Zoom/Odin discussion, and ridiculed them for not admitting that Zoom could deliver trillions of punches and destroy Odin. You know what this type of person is called? Hypocrite.

You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to take the feats into consideration, but not really. You take them into consideration only for some 'imaginary' guideline. To give you "an ideea of how fast/durable/strong that character is". If you truly want to be a veritable, illogical fanboy, stand up to them. Owe up to your words. Say that Surfer is infinitely durable. Say that Captain America can outrun bullets at Mach speed, so unless Wolverine does the same, consistently, he isn't at the same level. You're cowardly hiding behind the words of the feats, but not the actual implications.

And your hypocrisy and dancing around the bushes isn't the worst part. The worst part is that you take this imaginary guidelines on how the feat 'feels' in terms of implications, without actually acknowledging those implications, and actually consider them on the same level as actual direct comparisons between characters. As in, as what was the case in this thread, if Hal kills Krona in one-shot, a direct combat performance against a far superior character, yet Silver Surfer creates a blackhole, fights in one, heals a planet and brings world bliss, he's superior because he has better high-end feats eventough none of those are dependent on the adversary, but on enviormental implications that you don't even acknowledge in the literal sense because of the ridiculous implications that undermine your argument.

And that is quite possibly the most cop-out, idiotic way of debating and approaching a comic discussion I've ever seen.

Originally posted by Philosophía
I love how you completely missed the point, and further strengthened what I said. Yes, that's exactly what you are doing. You're pointing out the feats, but you're not acknowledging the absurdity of what they imply, because that would ridicule your entire argument. It's exactly what you tried to have the Zoom side in the Zoom/Odin discussion, and ridiculed them for not admitting that Zoom could deliver trillions of punches and destroy Odin. You know what this type of person is called? Hypocrite.

Originally posted by Philosophía
You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to take the feats into consideration, but not really. You take them into consideration only for some 'imaginary' guideline. To give you "an ideea of how fast/durable/strong that character is". If you truly want to be a veritable, illogical fanboy, stand up to them. Owe up to your words. Say that Surfer is infinitely durable. Say that Captain America can outrun bullets at Mach speed, so unless Wolverine does the same, consistently, he isn't at the same level. You're cowardly hiding behind the words of the feats, but not the actual implications.

Originally posted by Philosophía
And your hypocrisy and dancing around the bushes isn't the worst part. The worst part is that you take this imaginary guidelines on how the feat 'feels' in terms of implications, without actually acknowledging those implications, and actually consider them on the same level as actual direct comparisons between characters. As in, as what was the case in this thread, if Hal kills Krona in one-shot, yet Silver Surfer creates a blackhole, fights in one, heals a planet and brings world bliss, he's superior because he has better high-end feats eventough none of those are dependent on the adversary, but on enviormental implications [b]that you don't even acknowledge in the literal sense because of the ridiculous implications that undermine your argument.

And that is quite possibly the most cop-out, idiotic way of debating and approaching a comic discussion I've ever seen. [/B]

Why you continue to harangue me instead of the Zoom posters with their billion IMPs in a nanosecond arguments, the Superman Prime posters with their universe-busting surviving arguments, the GL posters with their Big Bang containing arguments, is unexplainable.

Oh wait, it's easily explainable. You're one-sided with this crap. And you'll ignore it when it suits you. And you'll point it out when it suits you. And it just bears out your transparent motivation that DC cheese = 👆. Marvel cheese = 👇.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Your claim of hypocrisy makes no sense. People actually try to argue and justify that Zoom could land a billion billion planet-busting blows on Odin before he can react. Accordingly, these feat cheese arguments are cogent in that narrow specific context.

You're using hypocritical, cop-out illogical methods of debating, instead of following a rational, comic-based line of thought.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You are coming from the background of relying completely on Cassandra Cain's bullet-timing feats to defeat Bullseye in a battle-zone.

For anybody doubting any of that:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=497150&pagenumber=1

Want to know what the worst part is? Even if I did, that wouldn't make me a hypocrite. Because I didn't go into threads right before doing that, telling people to owe up to their represented characters' feats and their implication in order to undermine their position, and then 'if' Srank asked me to owe up to my ridiculous position of saying that Bullseye has to have feats of going supersonic in order to stand up to Batgirl, I'd say that they shouldn't be put up under scrutinity.

The even worst part: That discussion is from 3 years ago. I'm not even sure I spent that much time on herochat where the cosmic cheese is taken as not that significant in judging of characters capabilities in battle (and for good reason), and from where I formed my opinion on how battles should be analyzed, otherwise we get to ridiculous proportions and implications. So even if you would have managed to find a contradiction, which you didn't, you'd have only showed that I disagree with my 2009 self when analyzing comic battles.

Good job. 👆

I skipped this part, it seems:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The comics don't acknowledge them in the literal sense. Why should I?

Which makes it even funnier since you're telling me I'm the one using specific arguments when it suits me.

Why don't you guys just kiss already? This is all just misdirected sexual tension.