Do miracles invalidate faith?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes it does: God did it. 😄

"What methods did God use?" is what you're looking for.

How did God do it, is the natural question when presented with such a vague answer. Given what you wrote in the GDF a few minutes ago I'm guessing your answer is "via physics" in which case occam's razor fails you.

Obviously physics thus universe is simpler than god thus physics thus universe.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You mean speculating, not answering.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, saying "physics did it" is applying a sentience to it that is improper and convolutes how it is done. You might as well say "God did it" when using such a phrase.

Exactly, which is why "god did it" is to vague to be an acceptable answer to the question. Its simplicity is superficial.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How did God do it, is the natural question when presented with such a vague answer. Given what you wrote in the GDF a few minutes ago I'm guessing your answer is "via physics" in which case occam's razor fails you.

Obviously physics thus universe is simpler than god thus physics thus universe.

I disagree. Something "above" or "beyond" physics would be my answer. Maybe even "outside" of physics.

I put those in quotes to distance myself form the concepts and also to present them as not my own: admittedly, those are not my original thoughts about "what God did to create the universe/s."

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Exactly, which is why "god did it" is to vague to be an acceptable answer to the question. Its simplicity is superficial.

Touché.

I just think it's superficially more simple. By acknowledging "God did it", I am indirectly acknowledging that he has "stuff" or "knowledge" that I cannot know due to my/our simplicity and limits, making the thought problem fairly useless beyond the superficiality of our simple words about it.

Alot of miracles happen in these days too. I have no idea why someone say they don't.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Alot of miracles happen in these days too. I have no idea why someone say they don't.

*sigh* Got any examples?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
*sigh* Got any examples?

I could just re-quote myself from earlier in the thread and be done with this portion of the conversation. awesome

Edit - But I really do like this line of reasoning:

"Events planned by God
In rabbinic Judaism, many rabbis mentioned in the Talmud held that the laws of nature were inviolable. The idea of miracles that contravened the laws of nature were hard to accept; however, at the same time they affirmed the truth of the accounts in the Tanakh. Therefore some explained that miracles were in fact natural events that had been set up by God at the beginning of time.
In this view, when the walls of Jericho fell, it was not because God directly brought them down. Rather, God planned that there would be an earthquake (or some such other natural disaster) at that place and time, so that the city would fall to the Israelites. Instances where rabbinic writings say that God made miracles a part of creation include Midrash Genesis Rabbah 5:45; Midrash Exodus Rabbah 21:6; and Ethics of the Fathers/Pirkei Avot 5:6."

For me, that rings truer of the "super duper smart" God that I believe in than the "immature magic" miracle worker God.

Those aren't very impressive miracles.

Even the Great God Athe, Lord of Atheism is more dramatic!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Those aren't very impressive miracles.

Even the Great God Athe, Lord of Atheism is more dramatic!

No no, that's not the point of me posting that. The point is that those "miracles" were natural events planned loooooooooooong before the earth was even created: before the universe was even created. I like the idea of a "smart God".

But I like Hume's logical test to miracles:

"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact which it endeavours to establish."

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/davidhume405337.html

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
*sigh* Got any examples?

Yes and do you have any reason of something happening in your life that is a Miracle like one of you love ones getting better from a life threating sickness or someone not dieing from a very bad car crash? 🙂

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
love ones getting better from a life threating sickness or someone not dieing from a very bad car crash? 🙂

medical science?

for instance:

I was born a month premature, with no blood platelets. I wasn't expected to live, but, the hard working staff at North York General made it happen. Why would I thank God when the people who are actually responsible for me being alive today worked at the hospital? That would be very rude, imho

Originally posted by inimalist
medical science?

for instance:

I was born a month premature, with no blood platelets. I wasn't expected to live, but, the hard working staff at North York General made it happen. Why would I thank God when the people who are actually responsible for me being alive today worked at the hospital? That would be very rude, imho

It would be rude.

However, some would call that a miracle.

Even in my most liberal attribution, I still would not call that a miracle.

A miracle would be the total lack of platelets and then you get an adequate amount of platelets in less than 2 days: impossible with biological processes. This assumes that you were adequately tested and quite the bleeder...meaning you really didn't have platelets. THAT...would be a miracle.

idk, I'd still think something like that is a medical and way more plausible thing than "miraculous"

considering, idk, its GOD, I'd really want something that is inarguably miraculous, like parting the sea, or a talking bush that never consumed itself... (though, ive read the former might actually be possible, but, not on command)

EDIT: i am pretty sure i was born, for sure, with no platelets. my mother's immune system had started attacking me, and they accused her afterward of being a drug addict.... she didnt even take tylenol. They had me in an incubator for weeks.

Originally posted by inimalist
considering, idk, its GOD, I'd really want something that is inarguably miraculous, like parting the sea, or a talking bush that never consumed itself...

EDIT: i am pretty sure i was born, for sure, with no platelets. my mother's immune system had started attacking me, and they accused her afterward of being a drug addict.... she didnt even take tylenol. They had me in an incubator for weeks.

Originally posted by Mindship
I wouldn't call those inarguable. I'd like to see a loved one brought back from the dead, all healthier and happier for the experience. Even then, I'd first question my perceptions; hell, I'd probably consider ETs before I jumped to the Ultimate. I really don't know what I'd consider an inarguable empirical miracle.

thats pretty much what im trying to say though 🙂

this is the G-O-D. conceivably, it should be able to produce a type of miracle that defies even advanced technology. It may be a high standard, but that is sort of what I am holding out for.

Originally posted by Mindship
Glad ya made it.

lol, me too

Originally posted by inimalist
idk, I'd still think something like that is a medical and way more plausible thing than "miraculous"

considering, idk, its GOD, I'd really want something that is inarguably miraculous, like parting the sea, or a talking bush that never consumed itself... (though, ive read the former might actually be possible, but, not on command)

EDIT: i am pretty sure i was born, for sure, with no platelets. my mother's immune system had started attacking me, and they accused her afterward of being a drug addict.... she didnt even take tylenol. They had me in an incubator for weeks.

In my scenario, if your body produced an acceptable level of platelets in no more than 2 days, that's more of a miracle than parting the Red Sea. For me, scale does not equal more miraculous, it's the possibility of something happening. Maybe an earth quake or some event could partially and temporarily produce the parting of waters by a significant margin....but it is very much impossible for your body to produce "homeostatic levels" of platelets in 2 days.

Originally posted by dadudemon
A miracle would be the total lack of platelets and then you get an adequate amount of platelets in less than 2 days: impossible with biological processes. This assumes that you were adequately tested and quite the bleeder...meaning you really didn't have platelets. THAT...would be a miracle.

I imagine doctors can move quicker than biological processes. Blood transfusions seem like a good bet.

Originally posted by inimalist
medical science?

for instance:

I was born a month premature, with no blood platelets. I wasn't expected to live, but, the hard working staff at North York General made it happen. Why would I thank God when the people who are actually responsible for me being alive today worked at the hospital? That would be very rude, imho

God could had decided reather to have you live or die and he works through people to help. So yes you can thank him and the hard working doctors for keeping you alive.

I'm away from my main cpu this week. The conversations I was having in this thread will likely need to wait, but I'll try to update them at some point.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I imagine doctors can move quicker than biological processes. Blood transfusions seem like a good bet.

That, my friend, is definitely not the point.

Originally posted by dadudemon
In my scenario, if your body produced an acceptable level of platelets in no more than 2 days, that's more of a miracle than parting the Red Sea. For me, scale does not equal more miraculous, it's the possibility of something happening. Maybe an earth quake or some event could partially and temporarily produce the parting of waters by a significant margin....but it is very much impossible for your body to produce "homeostatic levels" of platelets in 2 days.

/shrug

biological processes are so variable that it seems more like something nature could produce, whereas the deliberate parting of a sea, or a fire that never consumes what it is burning, neither are really interpreted as "outliers"

Originally posted by inimalist
/shrug

biological processes are so variable that it seems more like something nature could produce, whereas the deliberate parting of a sea, or a fire that never consumes what it is burning, neither are really interpreted as "outliers"

But, you see, nature is the same for both situations.

Producing platelets or parting the Red Sea waters...both "nature."

What's far more improbable is your body going from none to "good" levels of platelets in 2 days. In fact, it's so improbable that it really can't happen even under extreme disease conditions (like cancer) that result in massive amounts of megakaryocytes (the bone-marrow cells that produce platelets) in "over-drive". I takes a few days for the platelets to from and then another 7 or so to die. Speeding up the process with, say, cancer, would not result in functional platelets that can be found and deemed "well, his platelet count is good, now". Considering such a mutation that allowed for super platelet counts...it would require too dramatic of a change in your underlying genetics to allow for you to even survive womb maturation (you would die in the womb, basically). Even evolution cannot make such a radical genetic jump and create a "surviving" super-platelet producing organism. Too much radical mutation results in death. It has to be slow and gradual (assuming macroevolution is legit).