Originally posted by Korto VosI never claimed it was comparable to a star I just wanted to see if there was a line at the leevl of heat which in their eyes would affect the Balrog.
Magical fire or not...if Fiendfyre's temperature was as hot as a star, then it would have higher energy, meaning a shorter wavelength. And a shorter wavelength corresponds to colors higher on the EM spectrum (closer to ultraviolet).
Originally posted by Korto Vos
Magical fire or not...if Fiendfyre's temperature was as hot as a star, then it would have higher energy, meaning a shorter wavelength. And a shorter wavelength corresponds to colors higher on the EM spectrum (closer to ultraviolet).
Nah. The heat of Red Star is far hotter than blue fire. Anyway, Fiendfyre isn't some super hot fire as wizards are able to survive despite being relatively close.
Originally posted by ares834
Nah. The heat of Red Star is far hotter than blue fire. Anyway, Fiendfyre isn't some super hot fire as wizards are able to survive despite being relatively close.
Yeah, sorry, I phrased my earlier statement incorrectly.
My point was that both Fiendfyre and the Balrog's flames were both red fire, and therefore their temperatures didn't drastically differ.
Originally posted by Korto Vos
The Balrog is a Maiar spirit on the same tier as Gandalf (another Maiar). To slay a Balrog requires one to be on an equivalent level or higher, which is why Gandalf's attacks and spells were efficacious against the demon. Gandalf's comments of, "This foe is beyond any of you...Swords are no more use here," establishes the Fellowship's inability to hurt a 'greater' being.Durin's Bane had insane constitution and stamina. It survived after free falling kilometers at terminal velocity, and then battled Gandalf all the way up to Zirakzigil's summit, and then fought the Istari for two days nonstop at the peak. And it must have absorbed countless spells and strikes by Gandalf before that ultimate Lightning Blade killed it.
If we go by the reasoning that only the attacks of a demigod can be effective against the Balrog, then the demon incinerates Voldemort and Snape.
Otherwise, if the wizards' spells 'work' against the Balrog, then I'm afraid they [B]only win
because they have Avada Kedavra, which is instant death. [/B]
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Or a Noldor. Or any High Elf.
Well, Tolkien's concept of Balrogs changed over time. In the Silmarillion, Balrogs seem to be demonoids that were powerful, but capable of being destroyed.
It's the reason why Echthelion of the Fountain kills three Balrogs, loses his shield arm, yet still manages to slay (and get slain by) Gothmog, lord of the Balrogs, during the Fall of Gondolin.
Chris Tolkien stated, "Balrogs [were] less terrible and certainly more destructible than they afterwards became."
Years later, when writing Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. developed the demons into more formidable entities, and said there was at most seven in existence.
Therefore, it's fair to say the host of pseudo-Balrogs that Morgoth commanded were capable of being killed by anyone.
But the true Balrogs, "not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7", were Maiar spirits and could only be killed by demigods or higher.
Yes Avada Kedavra seals the deal and Voldy can't wait half the time to use it.
Of course you'll say that 😬
If spells 'work' against the Balrog, the only way Voldemort and Snape can win is by firing Avada Kedavra.
However, I'm suggesting that their attacks simply may not work against the demon.
I doubt the Balrog can be killed. Maiar spirits don't die. But their bodies do. Like Gandalf's. And like in Harry Potter, the Killing Curse doesn't obliterate the victim's spirit/soul, it just kills their body. The Balrog (and Gandalf, fellow Maiar) can die--physically. Which is exactly what Avada Kedavra does.
The Balrog's spirit will linger on, but his body can be destroyed. And Voldemort has shown far greater destructive capabilities on-screen than Durin's Bane did.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Even if Avada Kedavra fails which I completely disagree with) Voldemort's more than powerful enough to hurt him based off his blast into the enchanted protective spell around Hogwarts.
Going back to that, eh?
Need I remind you that the protective shield around Hogwarts was already bombarded by the spells of countless Death Eaters before Voldemort stepped in and finished it off.
And the other likelihood that he only knew the unique spell to destroy the barrier, and not any of his followers.
But of course, Voldemort is very powerful, and I don't doubt his destructive capabilities.
But..
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Voldemort has shown far greater destructive capabilities on-screen than Durin's Bane did.
...this doesn't matter. The mumakil displayed "far greater destructive capabilities on-screen" than Legolas, but we all know how that fight ended.
Destructive spells are useless if the Balrog can only be hurt by an individual on its level (a Maiar/demigod) or higher.
Furthermore, considering how much of a beatdown it must have received from Gandalf while free-falling, then climbing the Endless Stair, then fighting 36 hours atop Zirakzigil's Peak, it would take A LOT of spells to bring down a Balrog.
Originally posted by Korto VosFrankly, all of that is from the novels. Maiar are never mentioned in the movies, the Balrog is only called a "demon of the ancient world". If we're going to start using book material, then the Balrog won't be killing Voldemort since it wasn't born in July and hasn't hunted down the all the Horcruxes and destroyed them (actually it doesn't even need the novels for that, it's in the movie). And if we're going by book material, then a non-Maiar Elf like Ecthelion or Feanor killing Balrogs is precedent enough for a magical Dark Lord to.
...this doesn't matter. The mumakil displayed "far greater destructive capabilities on-screen" than Legolas, but we all know how that fight ended.Destructive spells are useless if the Balrog can [B]only be hurt by an individual on its level (a Maiar/demigod) or higher.
Furthermore, considering how much of a beatdown it must have received from Gandalf while free-falling, then climbing the Endless Stair, then fighting 36 hours atop Zirakzigil's Peak, it would take A LOT of spells to bring down a Balrog. [/B]
And destructive capability does count, when context is remembered. Voldemort has shown far greater affluence in the "f*cking shit up" field than the Balrog did. The "it's a Maiar, ergo invincible" argument doesn't work. Voldemort can destroy it before he falls to it.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Frankly, all of that is from the novels. Maiar are never mentioned in the movies, the Balrog is only called a "demon of the ancient world". If we're going to start using book material, then the Balrog won't be killing Voldemort since it wasn't born in July and hasn't hunted down the all the Horcruxes and destroyed them (actually it doesn't even need the novels for that, it's in the movie). And if we're going by book material, then a non-Maiar Elf like Ecthelion or Feanor killing Balrogs is precedent enough for a magical Dark Lord to.
1. Gandalf mentioned:
"This foe is beyond any of you."
Aragorn is the best swordsman/fighter in Middle-Earth, followed closely by Boromir. And Gimli and Legolas are arguably two of the best warriors of their respective races. Those four represent the finest of Elves, Men, and Dwarves, and yet Gandalf tells them, "This foe is beyond any of you." (even against Aragorn)
He doesn't even bother offering some modicum of hope. When he says, "Swords are no more use here," he's more or less stating that the combined prowess of the Fellowship is futile against a Balrog.
Therefore, even though Jackson doesn't have Gandalf yelling, "This is a Maiar! Only I can hurt him," it's pretty much implied that only an individual of Gandalf's caliber (an Istari/Maiar) can actually engage a "demon of the ancient world."
2. As for your second point, I'll repeat this earlier post of mine:
Well, Tolkien's concept of Balrogs changed over time. In the Silmarillion, Balrogs seem to be demonoids that were powerful, but capable of being destroyed.It's the reason why Echthelion of the Fountain kills three Balrogs, loses his shield arm, yet still manages to slay (and get slain by) Gothmog, lord of the Balrogs, during the Fall of Gondolin.
Chris Tolkien stated, "Balrogs [were] less terrible and certainly more destructible than they afterwards became."
Years later, when writing Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. developed the demons into more formidable entities, and said there was at most seven in existence.
Therefore, it's fair to say the host of pseudo-Balrogs that Morgoth commanded were capable of being killed by anyone.
But the true Balrogs, "not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7", were Maiar spirits and could only be killed by demigods or higher.
And if any "non-Maiar Elf" could hurt the Balrog, why doesn't Gandalf say, "Yo Legolas! Help out a bro here!"? [jk]
And destructive capability does count, when context is remembered. Voldemort has shown far greater affluence in the "f*cking shit up" field than the Balrog did. The "it's a Maiar, ergo invincible" argument doesn't work. Voldemort can destroy it before he falls to it.
The Balrog doesn't demonstrate any visible "f*cking shit up," but it's shown to be tremendously powerful.
The hundreds, or even thousands, of Orcs in Moria flee before it. It's mentioned that it single-handedly vanquished Dwarven rule. It survives after falling down miles. It takes Gandalf, going all-out, more than two days of nonstop battling before it finally dies (all the while absorbing countless hits from Glamdring, the legendary sword, and other spells [such an n number of 'Lightning Blades']).
Durin's Bane is surprisingly agile, and it could conjure fiery blades and whips, among other things, and could cloak itself in fire. It seems water doesn't 'extinguish' its internal flames, or at least prevent the demon from battling, since the Balrog continued to engage Gandalf up the Endless Stair and then on Zirakzigil's Peak.
EDIT: Thus, if the spells don't even 'work' against the Balrog, well...Voldemort and Snape lose.
And if they somehow do, it would take many, many magical attacks; it's very likely the Balrog could kill both wizards in the time span it would take for them to severally wound it.
Of course, if spells are effective, then I'm guessing Avada Kedavra's 'insta-death' would also finish the demon. Therefore, I'm ignoring the Killing Curse atm. But yes, the wizards only surefire method of winning is by launching the fatal Unforgivable Curse.