Balrog of Morgoth vs Voldemort & Snape

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Going back to that, eh?

Need I remind you that the protective shield around Hogwarts was already bombarded by the spells of countless Death Eaters before Voldemort stepped in and finished it off.

And the other likelihood that he only knew the unique spell to destroy the barrier, and not any of his followers.

But of course, Voldemort is very powerful, and I don't doubt his destructive capabilities.

But..

...this doesn't matter. The mumakil displayed "far greater destructive capabilities on-screen" than Legolas, but we all know how that fight ended.

Destructive spells are useless if the Balrog can [B]only be hurt by an individual on its level (a Maiar/demigod) or higher.

Furthermore, considering how much of a beatdown it must have received from Gandalf while free-falling, then climbing the Endless Stair, then fighting 36 hours atop Zirakzigil's Peak, it would take A LOT of spells to bring down a Balrog. [/B]

There's nothing to that claim he knew anything other than just using his raw power to beat his way in just like the rest.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Why wouldn't I go back to that ? It's an impressive showing of power. Whether they did damage or not it clearly showed Voldemort's power was well beyond any of theirs which I think is more than enough to fatally wound the Balrog. Voldemort+elder wand=dead Balrog.

There's nothing to that claim he knew anything other than just using his raw power to beat his way in just like the rest.

It's a nice showing, indeed- but it isn't as glamorous as it is when first seeing it, as I have argued before during our Battlezone and am saying now.

And Voldemort wielding the Elder Wand is irrelevant since the Deathstick doesn't bolster his spells anyway.

Well, there's nothing to claim he's not using a specific spell, especially how Voldemort is a master of wordless spells.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
It's a nice showing, indeed- but it isn't as glamorous as it is when first seeing it, as I have argued before during our Battlezone and am saying now.

And Voldemort wielding the Elder Wand is irrelevant since the Deathstick doesn't bolster his spells anyway.

Well, there's nothing to claim he's not using a specific spell, especially how Voldemort is a master of wordless spells.

Uhm, he blasts just pure energy from his wand all the time and this is another example. If you want to make a claim it's some kind of wordless spell you need proof otherwise it's just the same as him firing magical energy from his wand like he usually does.

The Balrog is formidable yes but Voldemort is even more so and his ranged attacks would destroy the Balrog before he could close the gap. Just like our battlezone where Voldemort tags his opponent safely from a distance.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Whether it bolsters his spells it's irrelevant as the feat was done by him so that display of power was his alone.

Uhm, he blasts just pure energy from his wand all the time and this is another example. If you want to make a claim it's some kind of wordless spell you need proof otherwise it's just the same as him firing magical energy from his wand like he usually does.

The Balrog is formidable yes but Voldemort is even more so and his ranged attacks would destroy the Balrog before he could close the gap. Just like our battlezone where Voldemort tags his opponent safely from a distance.

Okay...isn't that what I said? Voldemort wielding the Elder Wand hurts him more than it aids him.

Not really...a lot of those "blasts" are actual spells. Why would Voldemort just fire aimless magical bolts when he has a deep repertoire of spells that he can wordlessly unleash, especially the likelihood of a shield-breaking incantation?

What are you talking about? Do you not read my earlier post about the Balrog's insane constitution and stamina? How does Voldemort "destroy the Balrog before he could close the gap?" You're severely underestimating the Balrog's powers and severely overestimating Voldemort's.

You understand that the Balrog fought GANDALF for over 36 hours nonstop, correct?

I must have read that wrong. You mean the Battlezone where I proved Yoda owns Voldemort either by smashing him on the ground with offensive TK or rapidly closing the distance and slicing him apart? Yeah, that's the one I remember.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Okay...isn't that what I said? Voldemort wielding the Elder Wand hurts him more than it aids him.

Not really...a lot of those "blasts" are actual spells. Why would Voldemort just fire aimless magical bolts when he has a deep repertoire of spells that he can wordlessly unleash, especially the likelihood of a shield-breaking incantation?

What are you talking about? Do you not read my earlier post about the Balrog's insane constitution and stamina? How does Voldemort "destroy the Balrog before he could close the gap?" You're severely underestimating the Balrog's powers and severely overestimating Voldemort's.

You understand that the Balrog fought GANDALF for over 36 hours nonstop, correct?

I must have read that wrong. You mean the Battlezone where I proved Yoda owns Voldemort either by smashing him on the ground with offensive TK or rapidly closing the distance and slicing him apart? Yeah, that's the one I remember.

No, seeing as how that enchantment was bolstered by multiple skilled wizards from Hogwarts having a high constitution won't save him long.

Yeah, Gandalf isn't as powerful as Voldemort so despite it taking over 36 hours for him to best the Balrog Voldy will steamroll him.

The battlezone where Yoda dies an embarrassing death. That's the one I am referring to.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, it doesn't hurt him as it didn't prevent him from killing Snape or destroying the protective barrier. It cracked once but he won't be facing the rightful ruler of the wand.

For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume this is the best incarnation of Voldemort, which would clearly be him wielding his own wand (not the Deathstick, which doesn't amplify his spells, but rather has the risk of hurting him).

No, seeing as how that enchantment was bolstered by multiple skilled wizards from Hogwarts having a high constitution won't save him long.

Yeah, Gandalf isn't as powerful as Voldemort so despite it taking over 36 hours for him to best the Balrog Voldy will steamroll him.

Wth? Voldemort fired a [likely shield-breaking] spell at a barrier that was already tremendously damaged by dozens and dozens of Death Eaters. And how does that feat translate to him suddenly one-shot killing the Balrog?

Umm...Voldemort is not > > > Gandalf, as you're making him to be. But you can remain in this sad delusion that Voldy "steamrolls" a demigod spirit.

The battlezone where Yoda Voldemort dies an embarrassing death. That's the one I am referring to.

Agreed!

Originally posted by Korto Vos
1. Gandalf mentioned:

"This foe is beyond any of you."

Aragorn is the best swordsman/fighter in Middle-Earth, followed closely by Boromir. And Gimli and Legolas are arguably two of the best warriors of their respective races. Those four represent the finest of Elves, Men, and Dwarves, and yet Gandalf tells them, "This foe is beyond any of you." (even against Aragorn)

He doesn't even bother offering some modicum of hope. When he says, "Swords are no more use here," he's more or less stating that the combined prowess of the Fellowship is futile against a Balrog.

Therefore, even though Jackson doesn't have Gandalf yelling, "This is a Maiar! Only I can hurt him," it's pretty much implied that only an individual of Gandalf's caliber (an Istari/Maiar) can actually engage a "demon of the ancient world."

Originally posted by Korto Vos
2. As for your second point, I'll repeat this earlier post of mine:

And if any "non-Maiar Elf" could hurt the Balrog, why doesn't Gandalf say, "Yo Legolas! Help out a bro here!"? [jk]

Originally posted by Korto Vos
The Balrog doesn't demonstrate any visible "f*cking shit up," but it's shown to be tremendously powerful.

The hundreds, or even thousands, of Orcs in Moria flee before it. It's mentioned that it single-handedly vanquished Dwarven rule. It survives after falling down miles. It takes Gandalf, going all-out, more than two days of nonstop battling before it finally dies (all the while absorbing countless hits from Glamdring, the legendary sword, and other spells [such an n number of 'Lightning Blades']).

Durin's Bane is surprisingly agile, and it could conjure fiery blades and whips, among other things, and could cloak itself in fire. It seems water doesn't 'extinguish' its internal flames, or at least prevent the demon from battling, since the Balrog continued to engage Gandalf up the Endless Stair and then on Zirakzigil's Peak.

EDIT: Thus, if the spells don't even 'work' against the Balrog, well...Voldemort and Snape lose.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
And if they somehow do, it would take many, many magical attacks; it's very likely the Balrog could kill both wizards in the time span it would take for them to severally wound it.

Of course, if spells are effective, then I'm guessing Avada Kedavra's 'insta-death' would also finish the demon. Therefore, I'm ignoring the Killing Curse atm. But yes, the wizards only surefire method of winning is by launching the fatal Unforgivable Curse.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume this is the best incarnation of Voldemort, which would clearly be him wielding his own wand (not the Deathstick, which doesn't amplify his spells, but rather has the risk of hurting him).

Wth? Voldemort fired a [likely shield-breaking] spell at a barrier that was already tremendously damaged by dozens and dozens of Death Eaters. And how does that feat translate to him suddenly one-shot killing the Balrog?

Umm...Voldemort is [B]not > > > Gandalf, as you're making him to be. But you can remain in this sad delusion that Voldy "steamrolls" a demigod spirit.

Agreed! [/B]

I didn't say he'd oneshot the Balrog I meant he'd greatly weaken the Balrog with a continuous stream of power. Voldemort could do so or apparate where he wanted to and really toy with the Balrog if need be.

Gandalf in terms of formidability is another matter entirely than Voldemort's power which he brings to the table here.

Even you don't believe Yoda wins.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And since the universes don't intertwine, you gauged that since the Fellowship (all non-Ainur beings) can't handle the Balrog, thus Voldemort can't? Frankly, Voldemort (and Snape)>>>>The Fellowship. Including Gandalf. Remember that explosion Pettigrew caused that killed 13 people? Same thing again. But bigger. And more dead elves.

There are plenty of threads in which arguments are made that, "such and such can't hurt/doesn't effect so and so."

I agree that Voldemort & Snape > > Fellowship (apart from Gandalf), although the speed at which Legolas fires an arrow might possibly kill one of them.

I think you, a man of usually very rational thought, are being outlandish stating "Voldemort > > > > The Fellowship. Including Gandalf."

If Gandalf knew the Eagles could fly to Mordor, why didn't he catch a ride? Don't ask me these questions, ask Jackson's writing team.

I said "jk" L2.

Two separate fictional universes, and based on nothing, you put LotR magic above Harry Potter magic? Or are you saying they're totally incompatible with nullifying effects at every encounter? If it's the former, then... well like I said, what are you basing that on? And if it's the latter, what's the point of a Vs. match (or rather, this entire forum)? There's a reason Yoda was made to be able to block Voldemort's magic spells.

It's based on the fact that only beings on the order of Maiar and Valar can destroy them. Not men, elves, or dwarves.

Snape and Voldemort, like Boromir, are humans.

Or Bombarda Maxima to obliterate its body. Or Reducto. Or the levitation charm to render it immobile. Or petrificus totalus. Or immobulus. Or the shrinking charm.

Nods head Touche! If spells do work against the Balrog, then these are other viable options for the wizards to kill the demon.

Originally posted by quanchi112

Either way you agree his power did so.

Duh, he finished off the barrier, but I have major reservations of the nature of its destruction.

I didn't say he'd oneshot the Balrog I meant he'd greatly weaken the Balrog with a continuous stream of power.

Well multiple strikes from a spell-augmented already magically powerful Glamdring by Gandalf did little to "greatly weaken" the Balrog.

Voldemort could do so or apparate where he wanted to and really toy with the Balrog if need be.

Umm, it's not in-character for wizards to spam!-apparate, but yeah, Voldemort can apparate to create distance against the Balrog.

Gandalf in terms of formidability is another matter entirely than Voldemort's power which he brings to the table here.

Very well.

Even you don't believe Yoda wins.

RESPONSE:

...I do!

Originally posted by Korto Vos
There are [B]plenty of threads in which arguments are made that, "such and such can't hurt/doesn't effect so and so."

I agree that Voldemort & Snape > > Fellowship (apart from Gandalf), although the speed at which Legolas fires an arrow might possibly kill one of them. [/B]

Originally posted by Korto Vos
I think you, a man of usually very rational thought, are being outlandish stating "Voldemort > > > > The Fellowship. Including Gandalf."

Originally posted by Korto Vos
I said "jk" L2.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
It's based on the fact that only beings on the order of Maiar and Valar can destroy them. Not men, elves, or dwarves.

Snape and Voldemort, like Boromir, are humans.

I see no reason to assume that Voldemort and Snape can't destroy the Balrog's body.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Um, I'm gonna bullshit on that. Aside from the fact that the god-on-god exclusivity is completely missing from the movies, we do see one Maiar, Saruman, getting his spinal column pierced by a very ordinary Rohan man. Unless, you can make an argument that Grima was actually a Maiar in disguise, or that perhaps the pointy watermill Saruman landed was actually Manwe himself in mill-form, then we definitely do see a Maiar's physical form being cut down by a mortal man.

I see no reason to assume that Voldemort and Snape can't destroy the Balrog's body.

Well one could argue that Gandalf sorta turned him into a normal man when he shattered his staff. But it's a moot point. After all, nothing is called a Maiar in the films. Furthermore, we see plenty of Maiar being slain (or destroyed) by mortals. Sauron for example was destroyed by Elendil and Gil-Galad (in the movies Isildur), the Balrgos were killed by elves, etc...

Exactly. Morgoth's physical form was deformed by Fingolfin. Their spirits can't actually be destroyed. Even Sauron "survived" after the Ring was destroyed, he just couldn't do anything anymore. But their bodies can be killed. Sauron's was when the sea took Numenor. In the First Age, Drauglin the greatest Werewolf (creatures infused with fallen Maia) was slain by the Huan, a powerful, but non-Ainur Hound. Gothmog killed by Ecthelion. And if the Dragons were Maia then that mean that Glaurung and Smaug were both slain by Men.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
There are [B]plenty of threads in which arguments are made that, "such and such can't hurt/doesn't effect so and so."

I agree that Voldemort & Snape > > Fellowship (apart from Gandalf), although the speed at which Legolas fires an arrow might possibly kill one of them.

I think you, a man of usually very rational thought, are being outlandish stating "Voldemort > > > > The Fellowship. Including Gandalf."

I said "jk" L2.

It's based on the fact that only beings on the order of Maiar and Valar can destroy them. Not men, elves, or dwarves.

Snape and Voldemort, like Boromir, are humans.

Nods head Touche! If spells do work against the Balrog, then these are other viable options for the wizards to kill the demon.

Duh, he finished off the barrier, but I have major reservations of the nature of its destruction.

Well multiple strikes from a spell-augmented already magically powerful Glamdring by Gandalf did little to "greatly weaken" the Balrog.

Umm, it's not in-character for wizards to spam!-apparate, but yeah, Voldemort can apparate to create distance against the Balrog.

Very well.

RESPONSE:

...I do! [/B]

Not saying he'd do so left and right but he wouldn't just allow the Balrog to walk right up and attack him. Plus I can see Voldemort extinguishing his fire weapons due to the fact he did so against the basilisk in a moment when Dumbledore sent it right back after him.

Just concede that other debate already.