Kaldor Draigo vs Kain

Originally posted by NemeBro
You see guys, Draigo is just so super awesome he can do super awesome things and no one can **** with him. In fact, the text directly states that he is utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods, and that they can't kill him apparently.

Context? What "context" do you need? He beat the Bloodthirster with no weapons, slaying it. That's it. Assuming that it was weakened or did not use its weapons is just that: An assumption. Stop assuming shit, and just listen to what I say.

How did I "change my statement"? I said Grey Knights are the most powerful of Marines. They are, and those are the reasons why.

If "pushing over a skyscraper" and "monomolecular blades" is not a gaugable feat for you, then you do realise you have to stop using the calculations you had people use for Kain right? And Draigo is the strongest because he's been running around the Warp for hundreds of years ****ing shit up without anything so much as giving him pause.

I actually brought up Eisenhorn mostly because I assumed you'd read it, and this is just what I've heard. When I get that far in Eisenhorn, will try to remember to give you the chapter.

But yes, this also occurs in First Heretic, and is a standard rule in Inquisitor, which inspired Eisenhorn actually.

The Handmaidens of Slaanesh tried to tempt Draigo, Draigo told them "no." Draigo has managed to remain uncorrupted and immune to the effects of the psyche in the Warp for hundreds of years. Kain is doing nothing.

You're right, he's weaker than the average telekinetic psyker. Beyond that, prove Kain can lift a Marine in Terminator armour with his psychic powers, especially one as powerful a psyker as Draigo.

Actually BT, you're just not as smart as me. That is the context. He walked into the Garden of Nurgle and burned it the **** down. Space AIDS? Pft, no. Draigo burned down the Garden of Nurgle with psyflame. That is the context given. What more do you want me to say? I'm not going to invent details that don't exist. Draigo is the product of very bad writing.

I need a lot of context, your using a Bloodthirster who cant dominate whos not much more than a space marine with epic equipment. Your vague in what you say and you hype things.

No you misunderstand, I said pushing over skyscrapers was gaugable, what your claiming here is not.

I have a year or so ago, but its 3 novels and conjoining stories combined are quite a large amount of information so ill wait for that quote/page number.

So now its clear, "tempt", nothing to do with mind rape. kains going to go into Daigo's mind without him knowing and in seconds take his will from him, Kains not going to get undressed and "tempt" Daigo with pleasure.

Do you have any numbers on how much it weighs? I doubt its in the ton range, which is Raziels weaker Tk strike level.

😆 funny coming from the guy who cant understand pressure, who basis impressiveness purely on size and claims "tempt" as comparable to direct mind rape. So theres no gauge then....this feat is useless, nobody knows what "burning down Garden of nurgle" really means.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I need a lot of context, your using a Bloodthirster who cant dominate whos not much more than a space marine with epic equipment. Your vague in what you say and you hype things.

So now its clear, "tempt", nothing to do with mind rape. kains going to go into Daigo's mind without him knowing and in seconds take his will from him, Kains not going to get undressed and "tempt" Daigo with pleasure.

Draigo dominates the entire warp. It's stated that he is so powerful that only the most insane of Khorne's minions even dare to attack him anymore. Draigo is by no means just an "ordinary space marine". This is a man who would beat all of the primarchs. At once.

Ignoring the fact that mental domination is a standard power for daemons, especially those of Slaanesh, and that it would be beyond sense for none of the hordes of demons Draigo has butchered to try mental powers on him.

I dont know about all the Primarchs, since I read through the wiki and if its correct, hes been killing a lot of mooks as well as greater deamons. And on top of that, most of his actions are worthless because the Chaos Gods simply renew anything he destroys including their forces.

They did not use mental powers though, they used temptation, literally. The wiki even says they attempted a combination of things from "pleasure", a "way home", "riches" simple things, Kains not offering him anything, hes just going straight to the point to get his way and Daigo as far as I have read has never faced this.

Claiming someone hes faced "may" have used a power just because they have done it before or have had access to it is making things up, the amount of characters Kain has faced who i could use powers from, from lightnings heat to transformations etc would be decent enough.

At the end of the day though, Draigo has yet to fight someone with the durability of a stars core across his body or several times planet cores per every several millimeters and further, has never been struck it seems by great pressure, let alone 3x earth core+

Kain hits and takes hits at planetary level pressures, these bloodthirsters from the wiki are not much more than the DoW games display them as, or Space marine, just demons who in most of their fights with him make mistakes, e.g. leave themselves open to a heart impalement. Bad writing it may be, but its still not too great featwise other than if you try and use feats from other books for creatures and fill in "gaps" with powers that were not used.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know about all the Primarchs, since I read through the wiki and if its correct, hes been killing a lot of mooks as well as greater deamons. And on top of that, most of his actions are worthless because the Chaos Gods simply renew anything he destroys including their forces.

They did not use mental powers though, they used temptation, literally. The wiki even says they attempted a combination of things from "pleasure", a "way home", "riches" simple things, Kains not offering him anything, hes just going straight to the point to get his way and Daigo as far as I have read has never faced this.

Claiming someone hes faced "may" have used a power just because they have done it before or have had access to it is making things up, the amount of characters Kain has faced who i could use powers from, from lightnings heat to transformations etc would be decent enough.

At the end of the day though, Draigo has yet to fight someone with the durability of a stars core across his body or several times planet cores per every several millimeters and further, has never been struck it seems by great pressure, let alone 3x earth core+

Kain hits and takes hits at planetary level pressures, these bloodthirsters from the wiki are not much more than the DoW games display them as, or Space marine, just demons who in most of their fights with him make mistakes, e.g. leave themselves open to a heart impalement. Bad writing it may be, but its still not too great featwise other than if you try and use feats from other books for creatures and fill in "gaps" with powers that were not used.

No Primarch is anywhere near capable of waltzing through the warp, slaughtering armies of demons by himself, and then going around and destroying the domains of the Chaos Gods.

Destroying the domains of the Chaos Gods likely hinders them, since it takes time for their realms to rebuild, but whether or not it's worthless is moot, Draigo is unstoppable in the warp, as it's stated not even the Chaos Gods can remove or kill him.

I'll say it again, mind powers are standard amongst demons, especially Lords of Change and Keepers of Secrets. Draigo has faced everything the Chaos Gods could throw at him. Are you seriously saying that not one demon in the entire warp would think, "Hey, maybe I should use my mental powers on him?"

Considering that that's likely not canon, as Kain at no point in the entirety of the LoK series demonstrates being that durable in any canon cutscene, no enemies that he fights that could be considered a threat have any feats like that, and that you would have to prove the LoK development team intended that for the feat you're bringing up, nah. Not to mention, as it's already been stated by several others, that's not nearly as impressive as you make it sound.

Show me scans of Kain at any point demonstrating this level of strength and durability pl0x.

Oh, I do enjoy your ridiculous assumptions. Yes, every foe that Draigo has fought, whether it be ridiculously old demons that are so far beyond mortal skill in terms of weapons, not to mention strength, or a Daemon Primarch, beings crafted by the Emperor himself to be his avatars, just make mistakes and slip on banana peels during the fight. Okily dokily.

Oh, and ftr, about the gai blocking bolter fire from a Custodes, the context is that, after commencing a preemptive attack on the Word Bearers and speedblitzing 3 marines, the Custodes fired a spray of bolter fire at Lorgar. Argel Tel managed to block the bolter fire, while a chaplain fired a point blank blast into the Custodes' head.

Originally posted by Burning thought
[B]I need a lot of context, your using a Bloodthirster who cant dominate whos not much more than a space marine with epic equipment. Your vague in what you say and you hype things.

You're not very smart, are you?

I'm telling you Draigo is much, much more than a Space Marine with epic equipment.

Draigo beat a Bloodthirster without a weapon, in the Warp, where the Bloodthirster is at its reality warping strongest.

That is the context.

"For an uncounted age Draigo wandered that terrible
landscape. His path was strewn by Daemons fair and foul,
who sought to slay him or seduce him to darkness, yet
Draigo overcame them all. Atop the Blood Falls, where the
acrid ichor of Khorne's fallen champions tumbles endlessly
into the void, Draigo slew the great Bloodthirster Kar'voth.
With cleansing fire he drove daemonic taint from the beast's
great axe, and used the molten remains to reforge his sword,
sundered in battle with M'kar the Reborn so long ago."

This is the passage. I suppose you could argue that he used his psychic powers to do so, but it's largely irrelevant.

No you misunderstand, I said pushing over skyscrapers was gaugable, what your claiming here is not.

Ah, I misunderstood.

Okay. Here is something gaugable.

Draigo physically overpowered a Daemon Primarch, forcing him to the ground and using his heart as a coloring book. Magnus the Red in "A Thousand Sons" mentions casually destroying mountains while training with his brother Primarchs, Leman Russ pushed a Skyscraper over without any effort, Fulgrim has cut through a Wraithlore constructed of Wraithbone casually and effortlessly, and all Primarchs, even Lorgar, weakest among their number, can cut through hundreds of Marines without stopping and without being injured (Mortarion also proved capable of this). Horus in Horus Rising is barely pricked by a monomolecular bolt (Which also appeared to be sheathed in some sort of power field) fired by some weird crossbow-esque firearm, these things were able to go through the chestplate of Power Armour, through the Marine, out the back of the armour, and then through the wall behind said Marine. It barely stuck into Horus. Oh, Angron and Corax have both taken Lascannon fire to the chest without injury, Lascannons being powerful anti-tank weaponry. Compare this to a Marine wielding a chainsword, a monomolecular blade, whom can't penetrate heavy tank armour, and is unreliable for killing foes in power armour. Basically, this is the manner of foe Draigo physically overpowered, and dominated. Oh wait, no, sorry, that's a Primarch, Mortarion was a Daemon Primarch, which is even stronger.

I have a year or so ago, but its 3 novels and conjoining stories combined are quite a large amount of information so ill wait for that quote/page number.

It is apparently in Hereticus, the last book. Still on Malleus though.

Oh, Cherubael and that other Daemonhost whose name I forget could also physically catch bolter rounds, and do so casually. This is shown for Cherubael at near the end of Xenos. Here is the quote for the other Daemonhost, catching them at the start of chapter 15:

"The thing, Prophaniti, was stepping towards me. I shot at it with my storm-gun, watching in horrid
fascination as it caught the white hot bolt rounds out of the air in its outstretched hands, like a man
idly catching slow-tossed racquet balls."

It catches the storm bolter's rounds out of the air almost lazily.

Now Cherubael, from chapter 26 of Xenos:

"The daemonhost swung around suddenly as voices called out from lower down the roof. Brother-
Captain Cynewolf was clambering up out of the blast hole, flanked by Midas and another
Deathwatcher carrying the limp form of Titus Endor.
Cynewolf raised his storm bolter and fired at the blank-eyed man.
Cherubael reached out and caught the glowing shells, plucking them out of the air."

So if mere bound Daemonhosts are that fast, Kaldor Draigo definitely is.

So now its clear, "tempt", nothing to do with mind rape. kains going to go into Daigo's mind without him knowing and in seconds take his will from him, Kains not going to get undressed and "tempt" Daigo with pleasure.

Try to at least display a cursory knowledge of the verse.

Daemonettes have a latent mind-altering aura about them, at all times, that makes temptation much easier for them. Beyond that, even entering the shrine of a Chaos Cultist can mindrape you, even Fulgrim, a Primarch who has powerful psychic defenses, was eventually mentally corrupted and controlled by Chaos. Draigo is the best of an Order who have never fallen to Chaos, never been "mindraped" if you will. Their utter resistance to it allows them to not only do shit like wield a Daemon weapon without being mentally dominated by the Daemon inside, but even overpower the Daemon's presence, keeping it from corrupting others. Like Castellan Crowe does. Draigo is privy to all the mindrapey secrets of the Purifier order, due to being Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. Oh yeah, and he solved the Infinite Labyrinth and gazed upon the Inevitable City, before destroying it. Both, being the product of Tzeentch, are able to mindrape you to insanity. Or you could explode in a shower of gore. It varies.

And seriously, his job is fighting Daemons, who employ mindrape more often than anything else. 😐 Are you really suggesting he'd be so easily susceptible to the mind powers of a much inferior sorcerer like Kain?

Do you have any numbers on how much it weighs? I doubt its in the ton range, which is Raziels weaker Tk strike level.

Yes actually, Grey Knight Terminator armour weighs 880 pounds according to the roleplaying game Dark Heresy. A Space Marine outside of Power Armour has IIRC never had an official weight given, but they are about six to seven hundred pounds on average going by their height and build, they can be more if they are a particularly large marine obviously. I'm not sure how big Draigo is, though he has higher S and T than the average Marine.

Oh, and the ton range is Raziel's TK strike level? Don't recall that. Not that it matters. Since Draigo with his psychic abilities annihilated a city.

😆 funny coming from the guy who cant understand pressure, who basis impressiveness purely on size and claims "tempt" as comparable to direct mind rape. So theres no gauge then....this feat is useless, nobody knows what "burning down Garden of nurgle" really means.

It's true though. I am much smarter than you.

Pressure is force per unit area, that's not exactly a hard concept to grasp. I am well aware that wielding a thinner edged blade will allow you to more easily cut something. Don't insult my vastly grander intelligence.

Tempt is comparible to mindrape concerning Chaos because it explicitly is.

The Garden of Nurgle's size directly correlates with Nurgle's power. He burned it to ash. Therefore, he crippled a Chaos God. 🤣

On a serious note (Because although that is true, I like to really hope that Ward is not stupid enough to make Draigo more powerful personally than a Chaos God), the Garden of Nurgle's size varies. But Draigo is the only being to ever burn down the Garden of Nurgle. The might of the other Chaos God's armies have only ever forced the Garden to recede off of the territories of the other Gods, never destroy it. Draigo has accomplished what armies of Daemons could not.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer

How would you know? theyve never tried have they? Further, Kaldors context states he was cursed, cursed to forever walk the warp, cursed by the Demon prince he first slew no less, so the fact hes there and the fact the Dark Gods amusingly reform all their creations that he attempts to destroy implies their not too troubled to trying to destroy him even if they could.

A lot of powers are standard amonst a lot of enemies, doesn ot mean you can simply "assume" things, assume that they attempted to use mind control, the document only mensions temptation.

I am taking Kains durability solely from a cutscene based on Raziels feats from a cutscene. One person claims its not nearly as impressive based on poor comparisons, its still the pressure level several times the planets core regardless of how they shirk it off. Far more pressure than any feat Daigo has shown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc_HM2vaTfU#t=2m6s

I did not make that up though, or assume. Your the only one assuming, I am getting this from the wiki that states the demons are often making mistakes in fighting him, none of them used vast "reality warping" or "super strength!", Kaldors main victory in the beginnign was because the the demon left himself open.

Originally posted by NemeBro

By matter of fact I am exceeindly smart on this subject which you have shown wanting, your gauge of powers is based on titles and assumptions. I am sure "kaldor" is very "cool" but being portrayed as powerful is not the same as showing power.

If thats the passage then thats the same thing I read on the wiki, wheres the part where he fought it bare handed? You do realise the sundered blade hes carrying around was the weapon he slew the last demon with, e.g. not completly useless in a fight, combined with psychic powers. Theres no mension of the bloodthirster puting up much of a fight.

Ok so I understand your using another Primarch to claim a different ones feats which is interesting, but do you have a quote for this? I want to see a quote of what actually happened in his fight with Mortarian, with Mkar it shattered his weapon but left itself open, allowing Kaldor a killing blow. Assuming Mkar, which is weaker than Mortarian can send Kaldor to his knees and hope for a lucky strike, Mortarians cirumstances are likely even more unsusal unless hes not as strong as other primarchs.

Although Cherubael is fast and powerful, he does a lot of ridiculous things no single man could do and on top of that, hes hardly just a "deamon host", hes a Deamon prince or used to be, I dont see how you saying Kaldor is definatly his equel in speed just because you claim hes a "higher scale" of power, thats power scaling of the most illogical kind. Hes still just a space marine in Terminator armour, claiming he has reflexes to catch roudns out of the air is unfounded.

Your using "corruption" and "mind control" as if their the same thing. having actually finished Eisenhorn, which is all about the slow corruptions of Chaos I probably know more than you, also have you played Dawn of War 2? or Chaos rising? it also has major influences of Chaos corruption, so does the Omnibus....their not "mind control", not evn comparable. If I was saying Kain was going to slowly corrupt them with thoughts of heresy then you would have a point, this is not the case.

Kain can do something that nobody you can prove has tried on Kaldor. So far you have proven Kaldor will be immune to "inspire hate" which does alter/corrupt the mind into thinking something else.

So vaguely in the ton range then? not that impressive, as I said Raziels in the ton range and Kaldor "annhilating" a city, when? If your talking about the Keeper of secrets one, this seems to happen as a side effect of him defeating the Keeper, Kaldor still had to find his way around the labyrinth.

Then why are you argueing things based on size, or area of their blast radius if you know the larger the area, the less pressure? since force= F/SA? comparing large spread destruction to pinpoint blows by swords is folly.

Not really, its corruption. Hence why "holding onto your faith" is something both Uriel ventris in Omnibus and Eisenhorn in his book refer to.

Erm no, he did not cripple a Chaos God, if you know the story Nurgle "amusingly" just repaired it.

Also I think your assuming he destroyed the entire thing, when "burning the garden of nurgle" does not refer to the whole thing. Hell even Kain has pyrokinesis.

Originally posted by Burning thought
By matter of fact I am exceeindly smart on this subject which you have shown wanting, your gauge of powers is based on titles and assumptions. I am sure "kaldor" is very "cool" but being portrayed as powerful is not the same as showing power.

BT you are exceedingly smart on no subject. You have yet to earn the right to condescend as I have.

Kaldor isn't cool in any way, shape, or form. If you knew how to read, you would have picked up my feelings on him.

If thats the passage then thats the same thing I read on the wiki, wheres the part where he fought it bare handed? You do realise the sundered blade hes carrying around was the weapon he slew the last demon with, e.g. not completly useless in a fight, combined with psychic powers. Theres no mension of the bloodthirster puting up much of a fight.

Using a broken sword isn't much difference from using no sword at all.

I'm sorry, are you trying to imply the Bloodthirster didn't fight back? You can't actually be stupid enough to assume something so baseless.

Ok so I understand your using another Primarch to claim a different ones feats which is interesting, but do you have a quote for this? I want to see a quote of what actually happened in his fight with Mortarian, with Mkar it shattered his weapon but left itself open, allowing Kaldor a killing blow. Assuming Mkar, which is weaker than Mortarian can send Kaldor to his knees and hope for a lucky strike, Mortarians cirumstances are likely even more unsusal unless hes not as strong as other primarchs.

"Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

M'kar was pretty heavily amplified by a massive Warp Rift when he fought Draigo the second time. Before that, Draigo crushed him when he was a rookie.

The only Primarch known to be definitely weaker than usual is Lorgar, and in his case it was mostly a matter of attitude. Mortarion is also noted to be very resilient, even for a Primarch. Fitting for a Daemon Prince of Nurgle. Mortarion was still able to very easily cut through Terminator Armour, cutting a swathe through Terminators without being slowed down. Terminator armour is largely immune to the monomolecular blades of a chainsword wielded by a Space Marine, even normal Power Armour is very resistant to it.

Although Cherubael is fast and powerful, he does a lot of ridiculous things no single man could do and on top of that, hes hardly just a "deamon host", hes a Deamon prince or used to be, I dont see how you saying Kaldor is definatly his equel in speed just because you claim hes a "higher scale" of power, thats power scaling of the most illogical kind. Hes still just a space marine in Terminator armour, claiming he has reflexes to catch roudns out of the air is unfounded.

Cherubael isn't worth the hair on Mortarion's rotten nuts. Draigo has bested Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons, physically fighting them no less, in the Warp. Oh, and Cherubael got storm bolter shells while being bound, did he not? Aka, not at full power? Oh, and since a Space Marine in Power Armour in First Heretic blocks bolter rounds as well... Yeah. Oh, and an Inquisitor can do it in the game Inquisitor. You totally suck for not remembering when this apparently happened in Eisenhorn by the way. JUST SAYING. estahuh

Draigo has to physically fight much worse things than Cherubael.

Your using "corruption" and "mind control" as if their the same thing. having actually finished Eisenhorn, which is all about the slow corruptions of Chaos I probably know more than you, also have you played Dawn of War 2? or Chaos rising? it also has major influences of Chaos corruption, so does the Omnibus....their not "mind control", not evn comparable. If I was saying Kain was going to slowly corrupt them with thoughts of heresy then you would have a point, this is not the case.

I'm not going to actually lower myself to proving something that should be obvious, namely that if Lords of Change can't control the mind of Grey Knights, Kain can't. Draigo is utterly immune to the mind altering powers of Chaos. You can try to make up some arbitrary difference between "mind altering" and "mind control" if you want to, but I will just ignore such idiotic statements when they come up.

Kain can do something that nobody you can prove has tried on Kaldor. So far you have proven Kaldor will be immune to "inspire hate" which does alter/corrupt the mind into thinking something else.

What is that "something" by the way? Because you have yet to specify exactly what Kain will do.

So vaguely in the ton range then? not that impressive, as I said Raziels in the ton range and Kaldor "annhilating" a city, when? If your talking about the Keeper of secrets one, this seems to happen as a side effect of him defeating the Keeper, Kaldor still had to find his way around the labyrinth.

I can't help but notice you haven't proved shit.

Uh, no, you have it backwards. Draigo brought the Inevitable City tumbling down on top of the Lord of Change.

"At the gates of the Inevitable
City, the Lord of Change M'kachen offered Draigo a path
homewards, but in reply the Grey Knight smote the city walls
and left the bird-Daemon entombed amongst the ruins."

Though upon seeing the passage again, it was not necessarily the whole city. Not that it matters, Draigo's psyker might can destroy the Garden of Nurgle, which is larger than any city.

Then why are you argueing things based on size, or area of their blast radius if you know the larger the area, the less pressure? since force= F/SA? comparing large spread destruction to pinpoint blows by swords is folly.

What claim of mine are you referencing here?

Not really, its corruption. Hence why "holding onto your faith" is something both Uriel ventris in Omnibus and Eisenhorn in his book refer to.

I don't think you really get what I mean.

When a Bloodthirster comes through the Warp, and releases a wave of hatred upon the planet, mindraping them to revel in mindless slaughter, the Grey Knights are expected to be immune.

And they are.

"Aurellian marched forwards, the Grey
Knights following in disciplined groups,
their Nemesis weapons held before them.
Waves of bloodlust broke against them,
but their souls were hardened to resist
such petty evils and not a man amongst
them faltered in his stride."

Mere Brother Captains and Terminators were immune to the bloodlust-inducing wave sent forth by Angron and twelve Bloodthirsters. The Grey Knights were immune to said power.

Erm no, he did not cripple a Chaos God, if you know the story Nurgle "amusingly" just repaired it.

With all due respect, I actually have the Grey Knights codex, I'm not just reading a wiki, so maybe you shouldn't claim shit when you don't know what you're talking about.

"He
unleashed sanctified flame again amongst the writhing
jungles of Nurgle's domain, and for a long time the gusting
Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured
screaming of daemonic vegetation."

It was burnt down for a "long time," and all that was left was a "charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."

"Nurgle's
mighty jungle regrew from the ashes"

Nurgle's mighty jungle, not a piece of it, then later regrew from the ashes.

"That anything could exist in the Realm
of Chaos, yet be utterly immune to the will of the Chaos
Gods, was a fresh impossibility in a domain riven with the
impossible. Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo,
then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory."

Apparently Draigo is immune to the will of the Chaos Gods, and they can't vanquish Draigo. Sure, he can get no lasting victory, but that's pretty irrelevant. Kain isn't growing back from the ashes after Draigo destroys him.

Also I think your assuming he destroyed the entire thing, when "burning the garden of nurgle" does not refer to the whole thing. Hell even Kain has pyrokinesis.

According to the text he destroyed the whole thing.

You're the one assuming things based on a wiki. Stop it.

Originally posted by NemeBro
BT you are exceedingly smart on no subject. You have yet to earn the right to condescend as I have.

Kaldor isn't cool in any way, shape, or form. If you knew how to read, you would have picked up my feelings on him.

Using a broken sword isn't much difference from using no sword at all.

I'm sorry, are you trying to imply the Bloodthirster didn't fight back? You can't actually be stupid enough to assume something so baseless.

"Alone
and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's
bodyguard. strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves
Geronitan 's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though
Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he
can enter the mortal realm once more."

M'kar was pretty heavily amplified by a massive Warp Rift when he fought Draigo the second time. Before that, Draigo crushed him when he was a rookie.

The only Primarch known to be definitely weaker than usual is Lorgar, and in his case it was mostly a matter of attitude. Mortarion is also noted to be very resilient, even for a Primarch. Fitting for a Daemon Prince of Nurgle. Mortarion was still able to very easily cut through Terminator Armour, cutting a swathe through Terminators without being slowed down. Terminator armour is largely immune to the monomolecular blades of a chainsword wielded by a Space Marine, even normal Power Armour is very resistant to it.

Cherubael isn't worth the hair on Mortarion's rotten nuts. Draigo has bested Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons, physically fighting them no less, in the Warp. Oh, and Cherubael got storm bolter shells while being bound, did he not? Aka, not at full power? Oh, and since a Space Marine in Power Armour in First Heretic blocks bolter rounds as well... Yeah. Oh, and an Inquisitor can do it in the game Inquisitor. You totally suck for not remembering when this apparently happened in Eisenhorn by the way. JUST SAYING. estahuh

Draigo has to physically fight much worse things than Cherubael.

I'm not going to actually lower myself to proving something that should be obvious, namely that if Lords of Change can't control the mind of Grey Knights, Kain can't. Draigo is utterly immune to the mind altering powers of Chaos. You can try to make up some arbitrary difference between "mind altering" and "mind control" if you want to, but I will just ignore such idiotic statements when they come up.

What is that "something" by the way? Because you have yet to specify exactly what Kain will do.

I can't help but notice you haven't proved shit.

Uh, no, you have it backwards. Draigo brought the Inevitable City tumbling down on top of the Lord of Change.

"At the gates of the Inevitable
City, the Lord of Change M'kachen offered Draigo a path
homewards, but in reply the Grey Knight smote the city walls
and left the bird-Daemon entombed amongst the ruins."

Though upon seeing the passage again, it was not necessarily the whole city. Not that it matters, Draigo's psyker might can destroy the Garden of Nurgle, which is larger than any city.

What claim of mine are you referencing here?

I don't think you really get what I mean.

When a Bloodthirster comes through the Warp, and releases a wave of hatred upon the planet, mindraping them to revel in mindless slaughter, the Grey Knights are expected to be immune.

And they are.

"Aurellian marched forwards, the Grey
Knights following in disciplined groups,
their Nemesis weapons held before them.
Waves of bloodlust broke against them,
but their souls were hardened to resist
such petty evils and not a man amongst
them faltered in his stride."

Mere Brother Captains and Terminators were immune to the bloodlust-inducing wave sent forth by Angron and twelve Bloodthirsters. The Grey Knights were immune to said power.

With all due respect, I actually have the Grey Knights codex, I'm not just reading a wiki, so maybe you shouldn't claim shit when you don't know what you're talking about.

"He
unleashed sanctified flame again amongst the writhing
jungles of Nurgle's domain, and for a long time the gusting
Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured
screaming of daemonic vegetation."

It was burnt down for a "long time," and all that was left was a "charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."

"Nurgle's
mighty jungle regrew from the ashes"

Nurgle's mighty jungle, not a piece of it, then later regrew from the ashes.

"That anything could exist in the Realm
of Chaos, yet be utterly immune to the will of the Chaos
Gods, was a fresh impossibility in a domain riven with the
impossible. Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo,
then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory."

Apparently Draigo is immune to the will of the Chaos Gods, and they can't vanquish Draigo. Sure, he can get no lasting victory, but that's pretty irrelevant. Kain isn't growing back from the ashes after Draigo destroys him.

According to the text he destroyed the whole thing.

You're the one assuming things based on a wiki. Stop it.

Apart from being your superior on most subjects you argue of course I think you meant to add.

Oh yes it is, your trying to ignore things to make others sound more impressive, he plunged the broken sword into the heart of the previous demon he slew, who did break his weapon...so yes its still a useful weapon.

No, just that it didnt do anything impressive your claiming or implying for it, what feats does the bloodthirster have anyway?

I dont know about crushed, I would say more he got knocked to the ground, had his weapon smashed and then used said weapon to impale the demon while it left itself open.

So this whole primarch thing is pretty vague then, we dont know how strong Mortarian is since theres no feat for him, saying "well hes on the level of typical primarchs" is the same as what Fenris is refering to in the DMC vs Carnifex thread, illogical to assume any two beings are necesserily alike. It seems to me, based on your quote he beat Terminators and then defeated Mortarians bodyweight. Nothing "mountain busting" here....

Whats that based on? I cant see Daigo knocking Cherbuael to the ground so easily when Cherubael can not only fly and rip apart Titans but also react to bullets, it seems Mortarian cant do any of those things, your using power scaling again I assume to claim this? Cant remember it if it was years ago dear boy, I remember certain things though including most of what Eisenhorn accomplishes is context base.

I dont know about "worse", ive yet to see a Bloodthirster destroy a Titan with ease, nor leave himself open to be impaled like Draigos famous first fight, most of these texts your giving me are vague.

It never tried though, it tried in the text to "tempt" him, why do you think the text would state"tempt with riches and freedom" if it could just mind control him? or better yet, not even mension it tried? your filling in the gaps, which is what you do with most vague texts to make characters seem stronger than they are. You can ignore what you like, your never going to be able to compare corruption to full mind control.

Mind rape, e.g. go directly into his mind and control it, either spiritually or mentally.

yes I thought so, hyping a feat again based on assumption, nothing about the whole city and your passage here also states all he did was "offer" him something, Kains offering him nothing. Your comparing me offering you a jaffa cake to me stuffing it down your throat.

Everything from argueing how large an object a Krak missle can damage, to how large an area (city) a Titan can destroy etc. How "big" the Garden of nurgle is.

Yes, thats similiar to the Nightbringers wave of "death and despair" when Uriel faced it, thats not a mind rape, thats more an influence. That, is as I said before like a planetary inspier hate that Kain has access to and what Kain as I stated could not successfully employ on Draigo. But any marine, based on the nightbringer can ignore these influences with enough morale boosting from nearby captains or with enough faith, even Parnasus or w/e his name is spelt had little faith in himself and the cause but could stomach the nightbringers powers. Ive seen you say the Nightbringer is arguably the most powerful force in Warhammer 40k, or one of the top ones.

Your stateing things I alreayd know and the wiki fills in your gaps. Like you never said here how nurgle reforms them. And since when is that the whole jungle? just because it says "the jungle reforms" does not immediatly state the whole thing. If I said companies were destroying the Amzon rainforest and that the jungle would eventually regrow, thats no hint on English language that they have destroyed the entire rainforest.

BT, ****ing Alaric from the Grey Knight's omnibus resisted a Tzeentch demon's efforts to mind rape him into insanity, while a collar of Khorne nullified his psychic wards. Furthermore, there mere presence of one of the most powerful daemon princes of Tzeentch would mind**** people into insanity and/or service to Tzeentch. Alaric banished him.

Alaric is a mere justicar.

Kain is not mindraping Draigo.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
BT, ****ing Alaric from the Grey Knight's omnibus resisted a Tzeentch demon's efforts to mind rape him into insanity, while a collar of Khorne nullified his psychic wards. Furthermore, there mere presence of one of the most powerful daemon princes of Tzeentch would mind**** people into insanity and/or service to Tzeentch. Alaric banished him.

Alaric is a mere justicar.

Kain is not mindraping Draigo.

I dont know that omnibus but I bet if I read it I would find a ton of context your not telling me, plus the feat for Alaric not for Draigo you just mentioned. Also, Ive yet to see something impressive for these Demons tbh, you keep saying "zomg Bloodthirsters! Zomg! Lord of change!" but all your telling me is that fairly regular marines can deal with it even in the worst situations and I myself have read of Eisenhorn and ultramarines dealing with it in the Ultramarines omnibus/eisenhorn respectfully.

He is until Driago actually has feat beyond resisting temptation, I can resist temptation as well, for example I didnt scoff a cheeseburger when it was easily within my grasp.

Originally posted by NemeBro
A Nemesis Force Weapon, one forged from the axe of a Bloodthirster.

Kaldor Draigo has bested a Daemon Primarch alone and unaided.

He has walked into the Garden of Nurgle, and burned it to the ground.

He has fought Bloodthirsters in the Warp, where they are at their most powerful, and killed them... Bare-handed.

He solved the Infinite Labyrinth of Tzeentch, and smashed the Inevitable City to rubble, killing the Lord of Change inside it as well.

Also, Titus defeated a Daemon Prince that wasn't fully awakened.

Draigo is easily the single most powerful man in the Imperium, and possibly the most powerful psyker there as well.

Its all on Draigo's fluff page Blax.

It starts on page 38 and continues to page 39 of the 5th edition grey knights codex.

Brother-Captain Stern is the only REAL grey knight hero.

Thanks. I'll take a look at it when I get home.

Originally posted by Burning thought Oh yes it is, your trying to ignore things to make others sound more impressive, he plunged the broken sword into the heart of the previous demon he slew, who did break his weapon...so yes its still a useful weapon.

Not particularly. Would argue his psychic powers are more useful. Not that it matters, physically fighting a Bloodthirster in the Warp is still vastly more impressive than anything Kain has done.

No, just that it didnt do anything impressive your claiming or implying for it, what feats does the bloodthirster have anyway?

The average Bloodthirster can cut a Leman Russ in half, or hamstring a Carnifex with a single blow. They have washed entire planets in a sea of madness-inducing gore. This is what they can do in the Materium. They are far stronger in the Warp.

I dont know about crushed, I would say more he got knocked to the ground, had his weapon smashed and then used said weapon to impale the demon while it left itself open.

See, stop using your interpretation of a wiki as evidence. That was the second time Draigo fought M'kar.

"The tide was only
turned by their daring strike against M'kar's Warp-fortress. It
was here that Kaldor Draigo, a freshly ennobled BattleBrother,
made a name for himself. It was Draigo who dealt
the deathblow to M'kar, and so cast the daemonic horde
back into the Warp, but the Daemon clung to life long
enough to place a vengeful curse upon his slayer."

The first time they fought, Draigo is not mentioned having any difficulty with casting M'kar into the Warp at all.

So this whole primarch thing is pretty vague then, we dont know how strong Mortarian is since theres no feat for him, saying "well hes on the level of typical primarchs" is the same as what Fenris is refering to in the DMC vs Carnifex thread, illogical to assume any two beings are necesserily alike. It seems to me, based on your quote he beat Terminators and then defeated Mortarians bodyweight. Nothing "mountain busting" here....

Yeah no. Mortarion could cut through armies of Terminators easily, as he did in Fulgrim. He is noted to be incredibly resilient, even for a Primarch. Compare this to guys like Leman Russ, or Konrad Curze. Leman Russ landed in a volcano and crawled out. Curze plummeted through the planet of Nostramo's crust, and fell all the way through the Mantle into the planet's core, he proceeded to start crawling out. Oh, and you know what? They did this as infants. 😐 Mortarion is described as resilient even for a Primarch, and is no infant.

And yes, I will use the feats for other Primarchs, beings Mortarion does in fact equal. The only Primarch noticeably weaker than the others is Lorgar.

Whats that based on? I cant see Daigo knocking Cherbuael to the ground so easily when Cherubael can not only fly and rip apart Titans but also react to bullets, it seems Mortarian cant do any of those things, your using power scaling again I assume to claim this? Cant remember it if it was years ago dear boy, I remember certain things though including most of what Eisenhorn accomplishes is context base.

Lol. Cherubael is a mere Daemon Prince, at best. Mortarion is a Daemon Primarch, the most favored Daemon Prince of Nurgle. React to bullets? Please, Primarchs can move so fast Space Marines, who have been able to react to bolter fire, can't perceive their movements, and can cut through swaths of them in moments. Oh, and Leman Russ physically destroyed a Titan at one point, fun fact. Beyond that, all Primarchs had powerful psychic defenses, rendering them immune to the vast majority of psykers, the only psykers ever shown to be capable of harming a Primarch are Magnus the Red, a Primarch himself, and the Emperor himself. The psykers of the Thousand Sons could do nothing to stay Leman Russ.

I dont know about "worse", ive yet to see a Bloodthirster destroy a Titan with ease, nor leave himself open to be impaled like Draigos famous first fight, most of these texts your giving me are vague.

A Bloodthirster in the Warp is much more powerful than a Titan, and beyond that Mortarion, a Daemon Primarch, is as well. Primarchs have physically destroyed Titans, Leman Russ in particular. Oh, and Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus when fighting were explicitly described as capable of destroying the armour of a Titan.

It never tried though, it tried in the text to "tempt" him, why do you think the text would state"tempt with riches and freedom" if it could just mind control him? or better yet, not even mension it tried? your filling in the gaps, which is what you do with most vague texts to make characters seem stronger than they are. You can ignore what you like, your never going to be able to compare corruption to full mind control.

Oh you, I fill in no gap. "Seduction" concerning Slaanesh is explicitly a mentally dominating effect, and a soul dominating one as well.

"On a journey through the
Whispering Meadows, six sisters, the chosen handmaidens of
Slaanesh, sought to tempt Draigo with promises of glory,
power and all the myriad riches desired by mortal flesh and
spirit. but their words could find no purchase upon his soul,
and he scattered the Daemonettes' dismembered remains
amongst the alabaster grasses."

No purchase upon his soul indeed.

Why can't I? Especially since the corruption of Chaos is far superior to pathetic pussy mind control from Kain.

Every single Grey Knight has psychic mental wards to block out mind-affecting attacks. Your assertion that Kain can affect his mind with the pathetic mind control at his disposal is a funny guy.

Mind rape, e.g. go directly into his mind and control it, either spiritually or mentally.

An arbitrary difference you are imposing to give Kain an advantage. No one is fooled by your Uncle Tomfoolery.

Oh this reminds me.

"Yet advanced t~chnology is the least of the weapons in the
Grey Knights' armoury. Daemons are not creatures of science,
but beings of the darkest myth and madness. To battle such
creatures and emerge victorious, a warrior must be steeped in
that same madness; he must embrace the sorceries of the
Warp and so battle the Daemon with its own weapons. No
ordinary human psyker could hope to do this, for even the
attempt would leave his mind ravaged and corrupted beyond
salvation. Yet a Grey Knight can not only endure such trials,
but thrive amongst them. His strength lies not in martial
might alone, but also in his mind."

"For even the attempt would leave his mind ravaged and corrupted beyond salvation."

But not in the case of a Grey Knight.

Oh and some more!

"To this end, each Grey
Knight is an accomplished psyker, trained to channel his
mental energies into the halo of protedive wards known as
the Aegis. and an array of formidable battle-sorceries."

Mind control isn't happening. Find another tactic.

yes I thought so, hyping a feat again based on assumption, nothing about the whole city and your passage here also states all he did was "offer" him something, Kains offering him nothing. Your comparing me offering you a jaffa cake to me stuffing it down your throat.

The text still imply it was the majority of the city, the tumbled walls all righting themselves. Not that it matters, Draigo doing that is in fact a better feat than Kain has.

Everything from argueing how large an object a Krak missle can damage, to how large an area (city) a Titan can destroy etc. How "big" the Garden of nurgle is.

When you consider those things can destroy things that can withstand greater pressure than your ever so loved "Earth's core" feat, yes, it is very relevant.

Yes, thats similiar to the Nightbringers wave of "death and despair" when Uriel faced it, thats not a mind rape, thats more an influence. That, is as I said before like a planetary inspier hate that Kain has access to and what Kain as I stated could not successfully employ on Draigo. But any marine, based on the nightbringer can ignore these influences with enough morale boosting from nearby captains or with enough faith, even Parnasus or w/e his name is spelt had little faith in himself and the cause but could stomach the nightbringers powers. Ive seen you say the Nightbringer is arguably the most powerful force in Warhammer 40k, or one of the top ones.

Please try to get the context right. In that, the Nightbringer was massively starved and weakened when Uriel freed it, the Deceiver having given its tomb away to his enemies before it went to sleep, leading to a fleet attempting to destroy it. Though they were unsuccessful, they were able to banish the bulk of its power which was stored in some weapon to the Warp, beyond its reach, which it would have fed off of to survive its long entombment. It was on the brink of extinction throughout the millenia, the reason it fled Pavonis, where Uriel encountered it, was to feed on stars to regain some of its power.

And what the hell is your point? That the average Marine is resistant to mind-affecting powers? I completely agree, they are. The Grey Knights more-so.

Stop creating some arbitrary difference between mindrape and "influence."

Your stateing things I alreayd know and the wiki fills in your gaps. Like you never said here how nurgle reforms them. And since when is that the whole jungle? just because it says "the jungle reforms" does not immediatly state the whole thing. If I said companies were destroying the Amzon rainforest and that the jungle would eventually regrow, thats no hint on English language that they have destroyed the entire rainforest.

The Garden reforms slowly. I don't know what your point is. That would be like trying to discredit someone demolishing a skyscraper because it gets rebuilt.

And the text makes it evident it was the whole jungle, since "for a long time the gusting Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."

It's obvious it was destroyed utterly.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Err how exactly, you dont even know what the bloodthirster did and so far youve no feats for said bloodthirster. It was a broken blade that was used as a killing weapon earlier, nuff said, plus psychic powers as well.

And how is that impressive? their never portrayed as fast in the fictions I have read/seen them in. Cutting a tank in half vs Kains 3x earth core pressures? goodluck, what a Bloodthirster seems to be is just a large, axe wielding demon with some strength behind it, nothing special.

It just says Draigo dealt the death blow, its ambigious on any details.

How the hell does he equel them if a new Chapter master can just smash through his guard and knock him to the floor to carve his heart out without the source not even stateing anything of note from Mortarian himself, considering your using others to gauge Mortarians feats and the guy apprently still wears armour iirc you said before so he cant be that durable. Your automatically assuming Kaldors strong because he did this, when facts suggest him being still a large bloke in Term armour so Mortarian could just be a poor fighter.

Hes still a Deamon prince, favoured or no Cherubael has feats at the moment Mortarian does not have and how is that impressive? not necesserily agile or quick marines vs plucking bullets out of the air? not comparable, Cherbubael is faster here....

I would like to see the basis on this, show me feats for Bloodthirsters and then prove the one Kaldor fought actually did what your claiming. Two guys not in this thread also thats small compared to the actual "easily destroiyng a Titan" that Cherubael does.

Again, read the text, it says TEMPT, look up the defintion, theres notihng to do with forcefully mind raping someone or overthrowing their mind or soul.

I like how you claim that while listing countless people who can resist it, corruption is not the same as mind raping, not even close.

Hardly arbitrary when their completly different. Again your texts speak of corruption again, Kains not corrupting anyone. Your also missing the fact most of this is a protection against a very specific power, sorcery or "warp" magic, not a purely mental assault. If Kain was trying to use warp powers or corruption you would have an argument but you dont,and I am just having fun, Kain does not need to mind control this guy to win, so far he just needs his trusty claws.

No, nothing alike. Breaking some walls vs pressures equel to the center of the earth, not close at all unless your trying to imply tossing these walls into the core of the planet will have no effect on them, you wont be able to prove it though.

But they cant, you cant prove any of this at all. Earth core pressure is beyond spreading explosions or destroying tanks, your claiming these vehicles, buildings etc can be placed inside a planets core without consequence.

😆 the difference is massive. Me convincing you to actually use facts is an influence assuming I could make you realise your "assumptions" and implications from power scaling are useless. Thats the power your mentioning, Kains counter is me leaping through your screen and beating your ass to the floor and submitting to my will. This is even more relevent example considering you know my English might would have you running in terror.

The difference is even more unique with Kain because you would know your being beaten and it would take some time, mind rape is undetectable and happens pretty much instantly.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The Garden reforms slowly. I don't know what your point is. That would be like trying to discredit someone demolishing a skyscraper because it gets rebuilt.

And the text makes it evident it was the whole jungle, since "for a long time the gusting Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."

It's obvious it was destroyed utterly.

How do you know it was slow? and a skyscraper is gaugable, burning down plagues and rotten plants? not really....

No, not at all. Your quote there would be true no matter how much Diago burnt as long as he turned it to charcoal, what argument or basis do you possess that would imply nobody else who has any basic fire attacks could not do the same, burning these fungal growths?

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know that omnibus but I bet if I read it I would find a ton of context your not telling me, plus the feat for [b]Alaric not for Draigo you just mentioned. Also, Ive yet to see something impressive for these Demons tbh, you keep saying "zomg Bloodthirsters! Zomg! Lord of change!" but all your telling me is that fairly regular marines can deal with it even in the worst situations and I myself have read of Eisenhorn and ultramarines dealing with it in the Ultramarines omnibus/eisenhorn respectfully.

He is until Driago actually has feat beyond resisting temptation, I can resist temptation as well, for example I didnt scoff a cheeseburger when it was easily within my grasp. [/B]

Not really. I encourage you, go read the Grey Knights Omnibus. Asides from the fact I'm right, I found it to be a good read.

Are you seriously implying that Alaric, a Justicar, which is basically a sargeant, has far superior mental defences then the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights? Do you realise how idiotic that sounds?

To be fair, Alaric knew the Daemon Prince's true name, which is pretty much an insta-banishment. Before that, said Daemon Prince tore through the Grey Knights.

In the book, Alaric requested a Sisters of Battle Canoness refrain from joining them in attacking the Daemon Prince, for fear that it would mind**** them into service to Tzeentch, something the Canoness admitted was a possibility. Ftr, Sisters are reputed for being some of the purest and most resistant humans to Chaos and the corruption and mind****ery it brings, with only the Grey Knights generally surpassing them in that regard.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Not really. I encourage you, go read the Grey Knights Omnibus. Asides from the fact I'm right, I found it to be a good read.

Are you seriously implying that Alaric, a Justicar, which is basically a sargeant, has far superior mental defences then the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights? Do you realise how idiotic that sounds?

To be fair, Alaric knew the Daemon Prince's true name, which is pretty much an insta-banishment. Before that, said Daemon Prince tore through the Grey Knights.

In the book, Alaric requested a Sisters of Battle Canoness refrain from joining them in attacking the Daemon Prince, for fear that it would mind**** them into service to Tzeentch, something the Canoness admitted was a possibility. Ftr, Sisters are reputed for being some of the purest and most resistant humans to Chaos and the corruption and mind****ery it brings, with only the Grey Knights generally surpassing them in that regard.

You know what, it sounds good so I will probabily do just that.

Just as idiotic as saying a general or chief of staff of the American military arm can take more bullets than a regular private I imagine 🙂

Ah i see, context. Theres always context with these things.

I am sure the grey knights are great vs the corruption of Chaos and the warp in general, but Kain does not use those tools.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You know what, it sounds good so I will probabily do just that.

Just as idiotic as saying a general or chief of staff of the American military arm can take more bullets than a regular private I imagine 🙂

Ah i see, context. Theres always context with these things.

I am sure the grey knights are great vs the corruption of Chaos and the warp in general, but Kain does not use those tools.

Except, in this regard, the American military lacks magical powers and superhuman capabilities, and more experienced and higher ranking Grey Knights are generally more aged and experienced, as Justicars are superior to the common Grey Knight.

Nah ah bro. The daemon of Tzeentch dove into Alaric's mind in an effort to break his will and bend his mind, body and soul to him. Alaric resisted. Ergo, Alaric, a mere Justicar, possesses non-magical resistance to mind ****ery. It is only common sense that the Supreme Grand Master, the strongest and most experienced of Grey Knights, outshine Justicars in that regard.