Kaldor Draigo vs Kain

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Except, in this regard, the American military lacks magical powers and superhuman capabilities, and more experienced and higher ranking Grey Knights are generally more aged and experienced, as Justicars are superior to the common Grey Knight.

Nah ah bro. The daemon of Tzeentch dove into Alaric's mind in an effort to break his will and bend his mind, body and soul to him. Alaric resisted. Ergo, Alaric, a mere Justicar, possesses non-magical resistance to mind ****ery. It is only common sense that the Supreme Grand Master, the strongest and most experienced of Grey Knights, outshine Justicars in that regard.

You miss the point that rank does not mean power or resistance, even if they are usually more aged and experiance.

"break his will", being something Kain does not even try and do. Also as you pointed out, context. he knew the deamons name also he had warp resistance i assume, Kain does not use the warp or its corruption. So far, all I hear of this grand master is that he got his ass knocked down and his weapon broken and played on the stupidity of his enemy, thats the only cold hard feat, the rest sounds like a vague grey knight version of Beowulf, a tale that sounds good but is vague at best.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You miss the point that rank does not mean power or resistance, even if they are usually more aged and experiance.

"break his will", being something Kain does not even try and do. Also as you pointed out, context. he knew the deamons name also he had warp resistance i assume, Kain does not use the warp or its corruption. So far, all I hear of this grand master is that he got his ass knocked down and his weapon broken and played on the stupidity of his enemy, thats the only cold hard feat, the rest sounds like a vague grey knight version of Beowulf, a tale that sounds good but is vague at best.

Except, in the case of the Grey Knights, it does. That would be like saying that a Chapter Master is no better then a tactical marine.

Not the same daemon, sorry if that confused you. This was not a daemon prince, just a typical daemon of Tzeentch, and at the time, Alaric was wearing a Collar of Khorne, which basically shut off all warp and psychic defences. Alaric resisted the daemon of Tzeentch with sheer willpower alone.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Err how exactly, you dont even know what the bloodthirster did and so far youve no feats for said bloodthirster. It was a broken blade that was used as a killing weapon earlier, nuff said, plus psychic powers as well.

**** yeah so we should assume this Bloodthirster was somehow much weaker than even a Bloodthirster in the Materium, despite being in the Warp. ****ing hell yeah.

No, we shouldn't. The entry for "Bloodthirster" in the Chaos Daemons codex says they can hamstring Carnifexes and cut a Leman Russ in half, these are feats applicable to any Bloodthirster.

Okay. Draigo kills Kain with a broken sword and psychic powers then. 🙂

And how is that impressive? their never portrayed as fast in the fictions I have read/seen them in. Cutting a tank in half vs Kains 3x earth core pressures? goodluck, what a Bloodthirster seems to be is just a large, axe wielding demon with some strength behind it, nothing special.

Ka'Bhanda, after besting Sanguinius, flashed across the battlefield, cutting through and murdering 500 Blood Angel Terminators with his great axe, in an instant they all died. They died so suddenly the psychic backlash knocked Sanguinius out. That's faster than Kain.

Considering mining vehicles in 40k can survive just fine in the core of a planet, and the tanks are more durable, yeah.

A Bloodthirster is much stronger than Kain is, and beyond that wields an axe that is not only monomolecular, but is made of Warp matter, as such it slices through regular matter as though it were not there.

Draigo and other Grey Knights have physically fought such beasts, it is clear Draigo can harm Kain with his physical might (Which can be enhanced via psychic powers beyond normal levels) along with a monomolecular Force Weapon.

It just says Draigo dealt the death blow, its ambigious on any details.

I merely provided proof that he bested him as a rookie, and he did.

How the hell does he equel them if a new Chapter master can just smash through his guard and knock him to the floor to carve his heart out without the source not even stateing anything of note from Mortarian himself, considering your using others to gauge Mortarians feats and the guy apprently still wears armour iirc you said before so he cant be that durable. Your automatically assuming Kaldors strong because he did this, when facts suggest him being still a large bloke in Term armour so Mortarian could just be a poor fighter.

"Large bloke in Terminator armour"? Because Mortarion has certainly never cut through swathes of those with effortless ease before.

Owait he has done that, he did it quite casually at the Dropsite Massacre, cutting through them with his Manreaper scythe.

Your hamfisted attempt to downplay is failing. The evidence clearly dictates Draigo is more than "some large bloke in Terminator armour."

Mortarion is more resilient than the average Primarch. Curze as a baby plummeted through a planet's crust into the core, and crawled out, unharmed. Mortarion is obviously more durable than Curze as a baby.

Hes still a Deamon prince, favoured or no Cherubael has feats at the moment Mortarian does not have and how is that impressive? not necesserily agile or quick marines vs plucking bullets out of the air? not comparable, Cherbubael is faster here....

Angron was so fast Kharn of the World Eaters, uniquely one of the most capable and powerful melee specialists in Space Marine history, could not perceive his movements. One moment, Kharn was walking into a room. The next he realised he had moved back a few meters, was now slammed into a wall, with a broken arm. Angron did this while toying with Kharn of course. And once more, normal Space Marines and Inquisitors can react to bolter fire, blocking it with a power or force weapon. Stop this.

Frankly the argument of speed is ridiculous, to be blunt. The average Space Marine Scout, rookie marines, can easily pilot a Landspeeder, and pull off ttly radical tricks with it, a Landspeeder moving at a speed of 100 m/s. That's a better speed feat than any of Kain's (Though admittedly I may be forgetting one, am I? ).

I would like to see the basis on this, show me feats for Bloodthirsters and then prove the one Kaldor fought actually did what your claiming. Two guys not in this thread also thats small compared to the actual "easily destroiyng a Titan" that Cherubael does.

Cherubael easily destroyed a Warlord Titan. Magnus the Red casually has destroyed two Titans that dwarf Warlord Titans, and beyond that can tear apart the surface of planets with his immense psychic powers. Now, Magnus is indeed the strongest Primarch, due to both being very physically powerful and capable, while also being the second greatest psyker in history (Only beaten by the Emperor). But when he fought Leman Russ, his blasts were unable to one-shot him like he could Titans. Mortarion is once more noted to be especially resilient compared to his brothers, it's the entire Death Guard's theme really. Beyond that, by this point, Mortarion isn't just a Primarch, he's a Daemon Prince, and as such stronger than his non-daemon self.

Again, read the text, it says TEMPT, look up the defintion, theres notihng to do with forcefully mind raping someone or overthrowing their mind or soul.

With Slaanesh it is. It always is. Also, a Slaaneshi Temple can mindrape you upon entering, and a Daemon Sword or Tome will attempt to control the minds of everyone around it. The Grey Knights walk into and destroy Chaos Temples regularly, and handle Daemon Weapons all the time. They handle objects known for mindrape. Yet according to you, they are not resistant. What a joke.

I like how you claim that while listing countless people who can resist it, corruption is not the same as mind raping, not even close.

The difference is arbitrary. Like the difference between withstanding a punch to the face or a kick.

Hardly arbitrary when their completly different. Again your texts speak of corruption again, Kains not corrupting anyone. Your also missing the fact most of this is a protection against a very specific power, sorcery or "warp" magic, not a purely mental assault. If Kain was trying to use warp powers or corruption you would have an argument but you dont,and I am just having fun, Kain does not need to mind control this guy to win, so far he just needs his trusty claws.

Considering mindrape tends to be fueled by psyker powers or sorcery... Yeah. See, now you're trying to downplay his resistance to mind-affecting powers by claiming that since the source of said powers is different, he won't be resistant. That's just a butthurt straw people grab onto when they don't have an argument. Also, if a mere Justicar without his mental wards can resist mind-control, the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights who is essentially completely immune to Chaos can. Lol. Trusty claws? Draigo is stronger than Kain is (Because he could physically fight an amplified Daemon Prince, said Daemon Prince, M'kar, capable of easily overpowering and defeating Marneus Calgar while M'kar was at base, Calgar being a bionic man with power fists for arms), while also possessing a sharper blade and possessing better reaction-time. In melee Kain dies immediately.

No, nothing alike. Breaking some walls vs pressures equel to the center of the earth, not close at all unless your trying to imply tossing these walls into the core of the planet will have no effect on them, you wont be able to prove it though.

Well actually they probably could. Since they were made by a Chaos God. I can't prove that I'll admit, but I doubt something forged by a Chaos God is "brittle."

But beyond that, what you don't realise is that explosions and projectiles in general weaken as they continue to expand/go further or meet resistance. An explosion that blows up a bunker isn't merely possessing the power to destroy what the bunker is made of, if it incinerates the entire thing, it possessed the pressure to do so throughout that entire bunker, even as the blast weakened when it reached the outer levels of the bunker. I forget the term that describes this effect, but I digress.

Tossing baby Curze into the core of the planet did nothing to him, Draigo wounded a being more durable than he.

But they cant, you cant prove any of this at all. Earth core pressure is beyond spreading explosions or destroying tanks, your claiming these vehicles, buildings etc can be placed inside a planets core without consequence.

I'm telling you Draigo is stronger than Kain and has a blade that is not only thinner, but it ignores normal matter as though it were air.

😆 the difference is massive. Me convincing you to actually use facts is an influence assuming I could make you realise your "assumptions" and implications from power scaling are useless. Thats the power your mentioning, Kains counter is me leaping through your screen and beating your ass to the floor and submitting to my will. This is even more relevent example considering you know my English might would have you running in terror.

Is this a joke? It's not a very funny one.

The difference is even more unique with Kain because you would know your being beaten and it would take some time, mind rape is undetectable and happens pretty much instantly.

No. If a Justicar can resist mindrape, Draigo can.

How do you know it was slow? and a skyscraper is gaugable, burning down plagues and rotten plants? not really....

Well considering the allied forces of the other Chaos Gods couldn't manage this feat, it's a pretty good gauge.

And I know it was slow because it was apparently burned down for a "long time." Oh, and it should be noted he has burned down the Garden multiple times.

No, not at all. Your quote there would be true no matter how much Diago burnt as long as he turned it to charcoal, what argument or basis do you possess that would imply nobody else who has any basic fire attacks could not do the same, burning these fungal growths?

Because they'd of died the moment they entered the single greatest concentration of Nurgle's poxes and plagues in the Warp and out of it for one. 😐 That's a durability feat in of itself, Nurgle's Garden is brimming with the plagues and poxes he creates in the air, ones that corrupt and plague not only your body, but your soul. Draigo was immune.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Kains nowhere near as vulnerable as a dumbass deamon swinging around with an axe hoping to smash tanks. Also since when is cutting a lemen russ, the basic battle tank impressive? Also, your also assuming this one actually hit Kaldor. You cant claim that currently since theres no feat for it.

A quote would be nice, and this would be a feat for Ka'Bhanda then. Considering hes a primarch and ive heard Primarchs and less have also bested Greater deamons this isnt much of a showing for "general Bloodthirsters". Also a quick look and hes the "mightiest of Khorne's servants" so its not a general mook.

Erm wut? Just because a mineing vehicle can the tank can also? You forget I have read Warriors of ultramar, the miners and refineries on the gas giants could take far more damage than the actual imperial battleships so unless you have some feats of Tanks inside the planets core you dont have a case. Also, you would have to divide the pressure comparison down to how large the core is, because Kain can create 3x said pressure in the tip of his damn sword.

Thats nice but we have yet to hear of one slicing Kaldor or even hitting him.

Hes not going to get to do this though becuase while hes clunking around in armour Kains teleporting like wildfire and happily turning back and forth from mist to flesh.

define "bested" because if I walked up to a heavyweight champion who had been beaten by baseball bats prior and then delivered a knockout on the barely living bugger by your logic I have bested him, you have no details.

Hes clearly a shit fighter if a guy can run up and leap on him, your again assuming the positive for Kaldor rather than a negative for Mortarian, as I said the source does not even state that Mortarian did anything of note. You would have thought he could at least knock off a guys bodyweight even if he is in term armour but aprently not, seems their not as strong as we thought.

Your implying "blocking" is the same as actually percieving them as slow bodies, only Cherubael can pluck them from the air, this is far more than just blocking anything. Also Angron is a special case again, the Heart of blood in Dead sky black sun is also claimed to be the most powerful servant of Khorne but the struggle between him and the Omphalos w/e its called barely did any damage to their surroundings, he had to do whats essentially Kains bloodshower to defeat anyone.

I like how your comparing the speed feats of a marine in one of their fastest ground vehicles to Kain. Kains not as fast on foot no, but you forget he can teleport. Teleport>distance covered.

So to best Cherubael you have to choose arguably the most powerful Primarch in WH40k. That makes sense because the pressure exertion of a blast that covers a titan would only be doing a percentage of tat damage to a man, surface area. Theres a different between resistance and endurance, Nurgles followers survive vast damage because they "feel no pain" and some can regen. Also by the sounds of it, Deamon princes are not necesserily stronger than their former selves, for example Lemen russ and Magnus=mountain busting power, Mortarian= struggling to get a guy in term armour off him with no struggle to note unless your going to argue kaldor can also increase his weight to mountain+ levels.

Everything example youve brought up so far has nothing to do with mind raping but temptation, and I know slaanesh, temptation means what temptation means, alluring them with pleasure or promises. Also these others claims seem general, I have no doubt context is again relevent.

😆 not at all, the difference is the subtle influence to men trained to be against the Warp from the moment they are in the barracks, if not before vs an invisible and unkown force taking over your mind in seconds.

My argument is solid until you actually find me 1. a feat of a Deamon actually taking over a mind in seconds, not possession but an actual mind control and then 2. Kaldor taking this attack in text form, not you assuming "well he had to because woz there!". Until then, me extrapolating on the fact their resistance to specific corruption and sorcey of the warp is just as relevent. You cant claim Professor Xaviour would have trouble just because their trained to face warp magic and corruption, completly unrelated resistance. M'kar did overpower Kaldor, broke his weapon in the process and the guy had to hope for a mistake on the demons behalf, e.g. leaving himself open.

better reaction time? wut? how? Kain can react at fractions of a second, and this isnt just visual reaction, his brain works and decides actions in times where a human mind is still processing actions, so I hope you have feats of him reacting to someone who can teleport behind him, with a time disrupting aura around him and bore a hole into his head with his finger.

Yes because if something cant survive the core of a planet pressure it has to be brittle.

That also depends on the bunker, a bunker may not be designed to take a high powered bomb or orbital payload but glance off tank or rifle fire/grenades etc. So hitting it with an overkill, full body blast would break its own pressure resistance per area.

A being who did nothing of note in the source and Kaldor uses incredibly powerful weapons, I have no doubt the edge of a force blade or Nemesis weapon>Earth core pressure although this feat of yours for the baby is vague, I doubt he fell hundreds of KM through earth, rock and steel and then dropped onto the semi molten ball of iron that is the earths core so your claim is vague at best.

Whats that to do with anything? I never said Kain will glance off his blow with ease, although his weapon was broken by someone whos pressure did not harm Kaldor, who is still human more or less.

Its part joke and part trying to make you realise temptation or influence is not the same as turning someone into a puppet.

Why? just because hes a higher rank? 😬 Based on your logic he could also just banish the deamon in FinalAnswers example but as he pointed out the context, we know this man knew the deamons name, e.g. banishment time. Canon Context>your assumptions.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer

There are certainly major gear differences, based on the omnibus for the Ultramarines Marneus Calgar is simply described as a huge man. Yes their more experianced and wise, but their actual abilities often come from the more unique weapons like relic blades and artifacts that they can use.

So regular Deamons are pretty weak then, since a guy without any protection at all can resist. Even with a dampner he resisted, whats to say this deamon could have influenced anyone with its power? You seem to be assuming again that this is impressive for the Justicar, when it could jut be a poor feat for the Deamon who is the one apprently with all the advantages.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Well considering the allied forces of the other Chaos Gods couldn't manage this feat, it's a pretty good gauge.

And I know it was slow because it was apparently burned down for a "long time." Oh, and it should be noted he has burned down the Garden multiple times.

Because they'd of died the moment they entered the single greatest concentration of Nurgle's poxes and plagues in the Warp and out of it for one. 😐 That's a durability feat in of itself, Nurgle's Garden is brimming with the plagues and poxes he creates in the air, ones that corrupt and plague not only your body, but your soul. Draigo was immune.

Not sure they could necesserily manage to get there or if they tried, perhaps they died of the poxes you mentioned.

So? Forests have been burned down multiple times and regrown...

So your now claiming an endurance feat, not a destruction feat now. Infact, most of the garden are apprently just ingrediants he puts into a giant Cauldren for plagues.

Originally posted by Burning thought
There are certainly major gear differences, based on the omnibus for the Ultramarines Marneus Calgar is simply described as a huge man. Yes their more experianced and wise, but their actual abilities often come from the more unique weapons like relic blades and artifacts that they can use.

So regular Deamons are pretty weak then, since a guy without any protection at all can resist. Even with a dampner he resisted, whats to say this deamon could have influenced anyone with its power? You seem to be assuming again that this is impressive for the Justicar, when it could jut be a poor feat for the Deamon who is the one apprently with all the advantages.

For normal marines, yes, gear is the most major difference. However, it is pretty evident that the more experienced marines are actually physically superior, just looking at their statline. They have more wounds, meaning they can suffer more injuries, they usually have higher I, meaning they have greater reaction time. Considering that the Grey Knights have psyker capabilities, that means their skill with psychic abilities increases with time as well. Captain and Chapter Masters appear to generally be physically superior to normal marines as well.

Not really, since we're talking about a frigging Grey Knight here, and even then, Alaric was nearly overcome. What's to say- ****, what the hell kind of question is that? You say you know plenty about 40k, yet you have to ask whether the daemon could influence anyone with its power? Mind powers are some of the most basic types of powers for daemons. You have NO reason to assume that it is a poor feat for the daemon, considering Grey Knights are DESIGNED to resist their powers. Stop baselessly assuming that the daemons of the warp are weak.

Also, fyi BT, the Daemon Prince that Alaric banished? Who was stated to be one of the most powerful servants of Tzeentch? Who previously tore through Alaric's squads of Grey Knights, which included Terminators? Yeah, he was banished before. In single combat, with a Grey Knight Grand Master.

This number is pascals:

18278965129358830.1

This one is also pascals, from a door.

46869141357330333708.2

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
For normal marines, yes, gear is the most major difference. However, it is pretty evident that the more experienced marines are actually physically superior, just looking at their statline. They have more wounds, meaning they can suffer more injuries, they usually have higher I, meaning they have greater reaction time. Considering that the Grey Knights have psyker capabilities, that means their skill with psychic abilities increases with time as well. Captain and Chapter Masters appear to generally be physically superior to normal marines as well.

Not really, since we're talking about a frigging Grey Knight here, and even then, Alaric was nearly overcome. What's to say- ****, what the hell kind of question is that? You say you know plenty about 40k, yet you have to ask whether the daemon could influence anyone with its power? Mind powers are some of the most basic types of powers for daemons. You have NO reason to assume that it is a poor feat for the daemon, considering Grey Knights are DESIGNED to resist their powers. Stop baselessly assuming that the daemons of the warp are weak.

Also, fyi BT, the Daemon Prince that Alaric banished? Who was stated to be one of the most powerful servants of Tzeentch? Who previously tore through Alaric's squads of Grey Knights, which included Terminators? Yeah, he was banished before. In single combat, with a Grey Knight Grand Master.

Yes, physically superior as in being larger to a slight degree. Calgar iirc is refered to as a "bear of a man", hes a large bloke basically with access to the best wargear you can name also your talking gameplay mechanics. Arguable, it sounds like they have access to set powers concerning psychic protection technology.

A grey knight with his abilities nulled by the khornate collar. I know in what I have read and played in games that corruption is their "basic" power, e.g. temptation, promises etc to Chaos, not mind control. Well this demon in particular fails on a guy whos protection is nulled by a Deamon artifact...so how is this Deamon even worth mentioning?

So? The one Kaldor defeated left itself open to be impaled by a broken sword, if anything Deamon princes are not all the same and so far I am unimpressed since leaving yourself open is a damn error in combat even a space marine probably wouldnt do.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This number is pascals:

18278965129358830.1

This one is also pascals, from a door.

46869141357330333708.2

Apprently you didnt even do any calculations on this and pulled 400 mil newtons from thin air. Your context if this is the "plasteel door ripping" feat is non existent, do you have a gauge on the difference between steel and plasteel, do you have any calculation overpowering the shutting mehanism for the door? not yet....so go and get them.

Apprently you didnt even do any calculations on this and pulled 400 mil newtons from thin air.

Ultimate tensile strength of regular steel: 400 MPA. IE, 400 000 000 N/m^2

Tadah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength

IE, we don't even need to look into Plasteel (which is far superior to our modern steel, used extensively in Mk IV power armour, and in the joins of Tactical Dreadnaught armour) because normal steel is good enough.

Also, I'm just leaving those there for people who care about this thread. I don't.

Happy debating. /Wave.

Thats actually making a meter of steel crack though, a full meter^2 of steel shattering is 400 million newtons. Smashing a door off its hinges? your breaking the mechanism, a mechanism that may even be a different material to the door or even not be designed to take certain stresses. Also how do you know its "far superior"?

Space marines could not open the heavy doors (meter thick) in Nightbringer protecting the oribtal weapon batteries, they just had to stand around knocking on the door until the Strike cruiser above bombarded it with magma bombs taking out the entire facility.

Based on that above, assuming the mechanism holding the door closed is similiar to regular door locks, the actual lock is only a few inches in size. So it would take far less force to snap it. So using basic dvision, if a full meter is 400 mil newtons, a few inches^2 would be 516128 Newtons worth of force to break.

That would be assuming the steel was completly unharmed beforehand, which half the time doors are broken or damaged or their power connections are burnt out before their smashed down by marines like my above example.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes, physically superior as in being larger to a slight degree. Calgar iirc is refered to as a "bear of a man", hes a large bloke basically with access to the best wargear you can name also your talking gameplay mechanics. Arguable, it sounds like they have access to set powers concerning psychic protection technology.

A grey knight with his abilities nulled by the khornate collar. I know in what I have read and played in games that corruption is their "basic" power, e.g. temptation, promises etc to Chaos, not mind control. Well this demon in particular fails on a guy whos protection is nulled by a Deamon artifact...so how is this Deamon even worth mentioning?

So? The one Kaldor defeated left itself open to be impaled by a broken sword, if anything Deamon princes are not all the same and so far I am unimpressed since leaving yourself open is a damn error in combat even a space marine probably wouldnt do.

Apprently you didnt even do any calculations on this and pulled 400 mil newtons from thin air. Your context if this is the "plasteel door ripping" feat is non existent, do you have a gauge on the difference between steel and plasteel, do you have any calculation overpowering the shutting mehanism for the door? not yet....so go and get them.

Gameplay mechanics have bearing in fluff, yes.

Uh, a Grey Knight's defence isn't limited to psychic wards alone. They go through years of mental discipline in order to be utterly immune to the temptations and powers of Chaos. Stop treating feats as if they don't matter. Said daemon would have broken most other men. On a Grey Knight, it met its match, though, as I said, it did nearly break Alaric. Also, corruption is usually accompanied by mind-altering powers, especially in the case of Slaanesh. And the daemon of Tzeentch made little offers towards Alaric, mostly he was just intent on destroying his will.

M'kar didn't leave himself open, he was preparing to finish Draigo off. Perhaps he didn't expect that a human he had just cast down to be able to suddenly ram a broken sword through his heart, especially considering that he was empowered by the warp at the time. Followers of Chaos tend to be arrogant like that. Or maybe that shit like that shouldn't happen. Either one.

Also, the example went over your head. A Grand Master killed one of the strongest of Tzeentch's servants in combat. Alaric could not replicate this, and would have died if he had not known about the daemon's name. As you see, the higher ranking members tend to be much more powerful then the lesser ones. And Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
M'kar didn't leave himself open, he was preparing to finish Draigo off. Perhaps he didn't expect that a human he had just cast down to be able to suddenly ram a broken sword through his heart, especially considering that he was empowered by the warp at the time. Followers of Chaos tend to be arrogant like that. Or maybe that shit like that shouldn't happen. Either one.

Ignore this shit.

M'kar, who was previously beaten by Draigo, and generally fights with guize like Calgar, was amped by the warp to be strong enough to fight toe to toe with Draigo, and proceeded to break his sword and nearly kill him. Preparing to kill him, Draigo used his unparalleld plot-fu to ram his broken sword through the warp-empowered M'kar and wreck his heart in one fell blow. And the entire context for M'kar leaving himself open is understandable, given how "Perhaps he didn't expect that a human he had just cast down to be able to suddenly ram a broken sword through his heart, especially considering that he was empowered by the warp at the time. Followers of Chaos tend to be arrogant like that. Or maybe that shit like that shouldn't happen. Either one." and has no merit on M'kar combat ability. How is that unimpressive?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kains nowhere near as vulnerable as a dumbass deamon swinging around with an axe hoping to smash tanks. Also since when is cutting a lemen russ, the basic battle tank impressive? Also, your also assuming this one actually hit Kaldor. You cant claim that currently since theres no feat for it.

Ah yes, the patented BT downplaying, how adorable. Yes, let us ignore that Bloodthirsters are in fact not stupid, but are brilliant generals, excelling in all things that lead to bloodletting. Let us ignore that their physical might is many times greater than Kain's. Let us also ignore that their speed is far greater than what Kain has demonstrated as well. Let's ignore that their hides are so durable "only the mightiest of blows" can so much as dent them (This in a verse where monomolecular chainswords is standard-issue). Let us ignore that their martial prowess is virtually unmatched in the setting. Yes, a dumbass daemon. Oh, according to the Deathwatch Bestiary, a Bloodthirster can not only cleave a Leman Russ in half, but a super heavy tank as well.

And I'm not saying Draigo "LOLNOSELLS" Bloodthirster attacks, only that he, and even Grey Knights of lesser rank, can physically contend with them. Whether this is through sheer muscle or after amping their physique with their psychic abilities is irrelevant.

A quote would be nice, and this would be a feat for Ka'Bhanda then. Considering hes a primarch and ive heard Primarchs and less have also bested Greater deamons this isnt much of a showing for "general Bloodthirsters". Also a quick look and hes the "mightiest of Khorne's servants" so its not a general mook.

Uh, Ka'Bhanda isn't a Primarch. And he's also the only Greater Daemon to be bested by a Primarch but that's beside the point. Bloodthirsters in general are not general mooks, if you knew a single thing about the setting you'd know that. Ka'Bhanda being elevated to the "mightiest of Khorne's Bloodthirsters" is actually a fairly recent development, Ka'Bhanda was capable of that feat before fifth edition, where he was retconned into being the strongest Bloodthirster. Before that he was just a Bloodthirster, and two other Bloodthirsters had that title at two separate points, Skarbrand and An'ggrath. My source is the Visions of Heresy books. And nah, not gonna type out what happened, since I can't quote it.

Erm wut? Just because a mineing vehicle can the tank can also? You forget I have read Warriors of ultramar, the miners and refineries on the gas giants could take far more damage than the actual imperial battleships so unless you have some feats of Tanks inside the planets core you dont have a case. Also, you would have to divide the pressure comparison down to how large the core is, because Kain can create 3x said pressure in the tip of his damn sword.

I haven't read Warriors of Ultramar, and frankly I call bullshit on the mining vessels being able to take more damage than an Imperial Starship. The Earth's core is a summer breeze compared to a Volcano Cannon, or Nova Cannon, both being weaponry Super Heavies can survive.

Thats nice but we have yet to hear of one slicing Kaldor or even hitting him.

Didn't claim he could flex his dick and no sell it. Only that he, and inferior Grey Knights (Shown when a Brother Captain bests a Bloodthirster personally, one that is accompanying Angron) have crossed blades with them one on one.

Hes not going to get to do this though becuase while hes clunking around in armour Kains teleporting like wildfire and happily turning back and forth from mist to flesh.

Yeah no, teleportation is not a substitute for far inferior speed, nor is misting. Draigo is much faster than Kain, the moment he reappears (Being a psyker, Draigo needn't actually see Kain), Kain will find a sword in his chest.

define "bested" because if I walked up to a heavyweight champion who had been beaten by baseball bats prior and then delivered a knockout on the barely living bugger by your logic I have bested him, you have no details.

Stop assuming context that doesn't exist.

Hes clearly a shit fighter if a guy can run up and leap on him, your again assuming the positive for Kaldor rather than a negative for Mortarian, as I said the source does not even state that Mortarian did anything of note. You would have thought he could at least knock off a guys bodyweight even if he is in term armour but aprently not, seems their not as strong as we thought.

Yeah dawg I guess that means we should assume Wonderwoman's a weakling because Mongul can overpower her and throw her to the ground. You're assuming a negative feat for Mortarion, when the text clearly presents it as a positive feat for Draigo. Draigo besting him doesn't take away other Primarch feats, nor Mortarion's feat of cutting through armies with a scythe. Or the fact that he is directly stated to be incredibly resilient, even by Primarch standards.

"In contrast to the brute savagery of Angron, Mortarion, the Death Lord, killed with a grim efficiency, harvesting scores of loyalist lives with
every sweep of his terrifying war-scythe. His Death Guard fought with
grim tenacity. Where the traitor primarchs stood, none could live, the
loyalist assault breaking against them like the tide on immovable cliffs."

Yeah but he's obviously a poor fighter. What a laugh.

Your implying "blocking" is the same as actually percieving them as slow bodies, only Cherubael can pluck them from the air, this is far more than just blocking anything. Also Angron is a special case again, the Heart of blood in Dead sky black sun is also claimed to be the most powerful servant of Khorne but the struggle between him and the Omphalos w/e its called barely did any damage to their surroundings, he had to do whats essentially Kains bloodshower to defeat anyone.

Stop taking the wording so literally. Grabbing them out of the air and deflecting them with a blade is a marginal difference. I'm not sure what you're talking about with the second part of your post, though it's not relevant at all, Angron is directly stated to be the most favored, powerful, and terrible of Khorne's servants. Ka'Bhanda is his mightiest Bloodthirster. Also, wiki only says "one of Khorne's favorite Daemons." Oh, and Angron isn't a "special case" in terms of Primarchs. The same thing happened when Lion El'Jonson, Primarch of the Dark Angels, fought Konrad Curze, Primarch of the Night Lords. One moment the two Primarchs were talking. The next Curze was roaring in pain while the Lion's sword was now drawn and jammed into his stomach. This is from the perspective of a Space Marine. Oh, and Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists, was able to move from "some distance away" over to Garro without a Space Marine, Garro, perceiving it, while Dorn punched Garro in the chest, knocking him on his ass. Dorn then states he held back, so as not to kill Garro, because Dorn was angry Garro would accuse his brother of betraying the Imperium, but was willing to hear his case.

Also, collateral damage, or lack of it, is not discrediting in terms of feats.

I like how your comparing the speed feats of a marine in one of their fastest ground vehicles to Kain. Kains not as fast on foot no, but you forget he can teleport. Teleport>distance covered.

Way to completely miss the point. They have to have superhuman reaction-times to pilot a Landspeeder, it is directly stated that is why only Marines do so in combat. Kain can teleport, but he's so slow in comparison he wouldn't get a hit in anyway.

Oh yeah, and chapter 22 of Malleus, a heretical Inquisitor deflects rounds from a lasgun with his sword, while also being too fast in movement for humans to perceive. Eisenhorn dueled this man for an extended period of time.

So to best Cherubael you have to choose arguably the most powerful Primarch in WH40k. That makes sense because the pressure exertion of a blast that covers a titan would only be doing a percentage of tat damage to a man, surface area. Theres a different between resistance and endurance, Nurgles followers survive vast damage because they "feel no pain" and some can regen. Also by the sounds of it, Deamon princes are not necesserily stronger than their former selves, for example Lemen russ and Magnus=mountain busting power, Mortarian= struggling to get a guy in term armour off him with no struggle to note unless your going to argue kaldor can also increase his weight to mountain+ levels.

Magnus could kill Cherubael with a thought. I mean that very literally, he could blast his soul into nothingness by willing it. And no, Magnus didn't just blow one up, he disintegrated it, with a hurricane of Warpfire. The first one anyway. The other one he effortlessly deflected its salvo, with a gesture crushed its arm into nothing, and then speared through its chest. And you missed the point, again... Point being that Magnus couldn't just "LOLOLOLEFFORTLESS" one-shot Leman Russ, even though he was more powerful. And what's your point on Nurgle followers? Mortarion was noted as being more resilient before he ever became a Daemon Prince, Nurgle just gave him incapability to feel pain and regeneration, while also boosting everything else about him. Oh and I guess he also can use Space AIDS in battle. And no, your argument is insane. A Daemon Prince is always stronger than he was as a mortal. Kaldor Draigo is just this powerful, possessing formidable physical and psychic strength. Stop trying to discredit Draigo by claiming it a negative feat for his opponents. It makes you look sad.

Everything example youve brought up so far has nothing to do with mind raping but temptation, and I know slaanesh, temptation means what temptation means, alluring them with pleasure or promises. Also these others claims seem general, I have no doubt context is again relevent.

No you clearly don't. The Laer Sword in Fulgrim was able to mindrape an entire civilization of xenos into worshipping it and becoming douchebags, and forcing them to fight in its defense as well. It proceeds to do something similar to the Emperor's Children Legion.

Also... Dude a ****ing Daemonic rock in Eisenhorn could establish mind control over a planet of miners, forcing them to kill those not under its control. 😬 Mind control isn't working.

😆 not at all, the difference is the subtle influence to men trained to be against the Warp from the moment they are in the barracks, if not before vs an invisible and unkown force taking over your mind in seconds.

No, it is an arbitrary difference you spittled out to support a joke of an argument.

My argument is solid until you actually find me 1. a feat of a Deamon actually taking over a mind in seconds, not possession but an actual mind control and then 2. Kaldor taking this attack in text form, not you assuming "well he had to because woz there!". Until then, me extrapolating on the fact their resistance to specific corruption and sorcey of the warp is just as relevent. You cant claim Professor Xaviour would have trouble just because their trained to face warp magic and corruption, completly unrelated resistance. M'kar did overpower Kaldor, broke his weapon in the process and the guy had to hope for a mistake on the demons behalf, e.g. leaving himself open.

Daemon Rock did so. A rock. A Daemonblade will do so to anyone who picks it up who can't handle it, as well as those around it. In some cases, its reach is planetary, such as with the Laer Sword. Hell, even entering the temple it used to be in immediately mindraped everyone. Did they know they were being controlled by a Greater Daemon? No, because it's so subtle, that's what makes it powerful. If a Justicar can do it, so can Draigo, whose accomplishments and glories in the Grey Knights are canonically second to none, except perhaps Janus, the founder of the order. Shit, this argument is ****ing stupid, mere psykers can wrest control over the minds of others, as shown multiple times in Eisenhorn (Eisenhorn himself having this power), and the Lords of Change are the most powerful sorcerers in the galaxy. Draigo's job is to fight these things. He is the best at this job. And yes, M'kar overpowered him briefly, after they fought on equal terms for an extended period. And you ignore that M'kar was amped.

Oh, and I would be more reluctant to claim the same about Charles Xavier, not because his powers originate not from the Warp, but because he is a vastly more powerful telepath than Kain.

better reaction time? wut? how? Kain can react at fractions of a second, and this isnt just visual reaction, his brain works and decides actions in times where a human mind is still processing actions, so I hope you have feats of him reacting to someone who can teleport behind him, with a time disrupting aura around him and bore a hole into his head with his finger.

Human beings can react at fractions of a second, which is a vague description. Space Marine brains also have much faster reactions than human ones. Draigo is able to best Primarchs and Daemons whom warp time as a afterthought (Many Daemon Princes are Lords of Change can do this), while also being a Marine with much faster reactions than Kain in general. Kain is too weak to bore a hole into Draigo with his finger. A Marine with a chainsword, based on Titus moving the 171 ton artillery shell casually, outputs over ten thousand times more pressure than Raziel's dinky claws. A chainsword wielded by a Marine isn't able to cut through power armour efficiently, as shown in multiple novels, such as A Thousand Sons, and in the gameplay itself. Monomolecular chainswords wielded by Marines, when calced based on a casual showing, are ten thousand times more impressive than Raziel. Think about it. But of course, you will not.

Yes because if something cant survive the core of a planet pressure it has to be brittle.

Considering the things that walk the Realm of Chaos, yes, it's brittle.

That also depends on the bunker, a bunker may not be designed to take a high powered bomb or orbital payload but glance off tank or rifle fire/grenades etc. So hitting it with an overkill, full body blast would break its own pressure resistance per area.

That's kind of dodging the point entirely. Which is, that you need more pressure at the epicentre of the blast to annihilate a structure, than to cut it.

A being who did nothing of note in the source and Kaldor uses incredibly powerful weapons, I have no doubt the edge of a force blade or Nemesis weapon>Earth core pressure although this feat of yours for the baby is vague, I doubt he fell hundreds of KM through earth, rock and steel and then dropped onto the semi molten ball of iron that is the earths core so your claim is vague at best.

You can doubt whatever the hell you want, that's what the text states.

I'm not going to type out what Index Astartes says, since I can't copy and paste, but Lexicanum says the same thing.

"The child that would come to be known as Konrad Curze was first recorded as crashing through the surface and into the core of the night-shrouded world of Nostramo. The crust of Nostramo bore high quantities of the mineral adamantium, which provided the basis of the planet's immense mining and purifying industries"

What Lexicanum doesn't state is that his descent left a huge cratered scar in the Adamantium crust of Nostramo (Which was sealed off from the population of the planet out of fear), one which he then crawled out of after swimming through the molten metals of the core and mantle.

Whats that to do with anything? I never said Kain will glance off his blow with ease, although his weapon was broken by someone whos pressure did not harm Kaldor, who is still human more or less.

"Human more or less"? Their incredible feats of endurance and strength say otherwise, and beyond that, Draigo wears Terminator armour, as well as a Storm Shield. I am saying Kain can't hurt him.

Its part joke and part trying to make you realise temptation or influence is not the same as turning someone into a puppet.

It effectively is.

Why? just because hes a higher rank? 😬 Based on your logic he could also just banish the deamon in FinalAnswers example but as he pointed out the context, we know this man knew the deamons name, e.g. banishment time. Canon Context>your assumptions.

Name a single example of the leader of a military in 40k not being one of or the strongest combatant within it.

Calgar is the greatest warrior of the Ultramarines. Dante is the second greatest of the Blood Angels, edged out only by Chief Librarian Mephiston, who is a very special case. Logan Grimnar is the strongest Space Wolf (Except maybe Bjorn, a very powerful Dreadnought, is hard to say). Ghazghkuull is the strongest Ork in the galaxy. Farsight and Shadowsun, the former and current military leader of the Tau, are their greatest warriors. For examples.

But beyond that, Draigo is directly stated to have achieved more glory and honors than any GK in history save maybe Janus. Draigo could very much banish said Daemon, which was bested in personal combat by a Grand Master. Draigo has defeated Daemons in the Warp, where such "context" doesn't apply, since you are not banishing them, and names have no power over them there.

There are certainly major gear differences, based on the omnibus for the Ultramarines Marneus Calgar is simply described as a huge man. Yes their more experianced and wise, but their actual abilities often come from the more unique weapons like relic blades and artifacts that they can use.

He's like 50% mechanical. 😐 And beyond that was overpowered and beaten up by M'kar. Who Draigo matched blow for blow when M'kar was amplified by a massive Warp Rift.

So regular Deamons are pretty weak then, since a guy without any protection at all can resist. Even with a dampner he resisted, whats to say this deamon could have influenced anyone with its power? You seem to be assuming again that this is impressive for the Justicar, when it could jut be a poor feat for the Deamon who is the one apprently with all the advantages.

Stop assuming the feat is a bad one for the Daemon when it's a good one for Alaric. Not one Grey Knight, ever, has fallen to Chaos, has fallen to their predations of the mind. He's a Daemon Prince. There are no Daemon Princes who are weak, they only attain their position through being powerful and gaining the favor of one or all gods. You assume it's a poor feat for the Daemon, when it's clearly presented as impressive for Alaric. Fool.

Not sure they could necesserily manage to get there or if they tried, perhaps they died of the poxes you mentioned.

The other Daemons of Chaos have forced the Garden to recede, Plaguebearers and other Daemons defending it against their attackers. But to burn it down? That's a feat only Draigo has attained... Multiple times.

So? Forests have been burned down multiple times and regrown...

Point?

So your now claiming an endurance feat, not a destruction feat now. Infact, most of the garden are apprently just ingrediants he puts into a giant Cauldren for plagues.

Or you know, it's both.

Ingredients?

Originally posted by FinalAnswer

Since when exactly?

Well anyone can get mental dicipline, theres a difference between a fat bloke at fat fighters learning how to turn down a cream cake and Kain shoving it down his throat. Your comparison is poor in this case, a guy whos simply mentally faithful to the Emperor vs a Deamon thats not quite up to influencing him, also show me proof of this, these "mind altering".

Well it did happen, he made a very human mistake and a stupid one at that. If they are prone to this and getting owned by people with broken weapons then why are you even comparing them as if their some sort of "all powerful" entity?

It didnt go over my head, I just countered by pointing out their not necesserily as amazing as you believe.

Originally posted by NemeBro

I see a lot of claims mixed with baiting. not much proof at all, typical Shane.

So why are you wasting time listing feats for a Bloodthirster when it may have never hit him or even did anything of note? Or simply avoiding them, using context/plot developed equipment or else, you dont know so why are you trying to make a claim based on something you dont know?

No, what I meant was the other guy was and this deamon is the greatest of Khornes forces. No, but Ka'Bhanda is not a mook among bloodthirsters, you cant use the best ones feats for all of them or even compare, thats like me saying all vampires in LoK have all Kains powers and vice versa, would be wrong.

Pff, imperial vessels were being bored into by swarms of Tyranids while it took them a hellava long time, iirc even had to get a specific type of organism to penetrate it before it destroyed them all. 😆 you mean, like the amped Volcano cannon that cant even completly wipe out concrete or likewise? Your making things up, also when did a Super heavy survive it? Also both Volcano and Nova strike a larger surface area than the tip of asword, hundreds of times larger so that comparison is shitty.

So this is not even special to Kaldor then, a Captain can do it so anyone bringing up "zomg Kaldor is the grand master!" is wasting even more time, this whole feat is not a feat at all, just a vague circumstance that can be performed by far lesser ranks.

Yes it is, teleportation takes out distance so Kain can avoid Kaldor as much as he likes, Kaldor does not have precog, show me this. Your adding more fanciful "feats" or "claims" every time, also thats nice, but Kaldor will likely then lose his weapon when Kain teleports off with it and tosses it away.

Your right, context, and therefore your argument does not really exist, you have no real case.

He slices through mooks and you think this is a counter to him being knocked off his feet and unable to even get up or attack? pff, he didnt have anything noted of his struggle or lack therof....

Not at all, because Cherbuael plucking them is like using fingers to grab small rounds. Blocking them with a blade is using the blade which assuming WH40 consistency is usually freakin huge. Also that does not really identify speed, just one event moving onto another, e.g. from talking to attack, unless it literally stated that the marine was shocked. For example, in Dead sky black sun the Symbiote Deamon (cant recall name) was so fast it could dodge bolter fire, none of the marines including Uriel ventris with his Captain enhanced eyes (or eye) couldnt percieve him.

It is if the surfaces their hitting are being smashed just by the resounding explosions of tanks and nearby artillery. If the beings your refering to as extremely strong and pwoerful cant even smash the area around them then their clearly not that strong. If Kratos and Hercules fought but did nothing to the surroundings when they smashed into them (which they did smash) then it would be pretty poor showing of physical power.

So? So they can pilot especially fast vehicles, this is not a close range combat feat or a real reaction feat on Kains level. Slow? the guy will be hitting before Marines, being human and all percieve him, as it takes over a second for the brain to conceive an object, something you take for granted.

The Kasrin was fireing a las pistol at the blur which deflected it yes but that does not mean Quixos reaceted to the beams, merely the Kasrins aim and Eisenhorn himself in the same piece described it all as a blur so I assume Quixos slowe down in their fight.

I didnt miss the point, I expanded on your statement giving a reason why affects on a Titan are on a larger area, Russ under the same effect and area would be dealt less damage but more importantly a Primarch has his own protection, a Titan doesnt against warp fire. 😆 their negative feats whether you like it or not, if the guy cant fight as well as Magnus then dont argue him as a feat for Kaldor, if you had Kaldor deflecting warp fire from magnus then you would have a good feat but Mortarian did nothing of note to Kaldor.

Originally posted by NemeBro

So thats a feat fro this specific item.

As for the Deamonic rock, it was vast and beneath the ground, while Eisenhorn was with the magos and his subeterranian vehicle. I recall some context here but the thing is, Eisenhorn uses the rock (which they destroy iirc, without ite Mcing then so again, sounds more like corruption) to power his staff to completly wipe out in a single strike two Deamonhosts, including Cherubael (who wanted to die). Its proven incredibly powerful.

No counter again I see.

Kans not using the warp or sorcery here, he can if he wants to but he has a completly mental based MC in his hands and more importantly, you keep listing things psykers have this and lords of change have that but Kaldors never been faced with it, you cant assume they automatically used it. Eisenhorn may have influenced a couple of people to shoot themselves or others but it takes a lot out of him, its not a simple trick he can spam on the fly.

He still controls minds, your missing the point and his method is completly unique to Psykers in WH40k. You cant claim one defence is equel to the protection against another attack, if I wear a bulletproof vest, its no good against a tank shell like tank armour is.

Not consistently, a human mind is constantly processing the images around it, it takes a second or so for this to happen but since its constantly happening you dont notice it, Kain on the other hand phases in and out of excistence with teleport and can react instantly after doing so, while Kaldors brain is figuiring this, Kains already killed him. 😆 a 170 ton? first I dont know where you calculated this, second thats just over half the weight of Raziels obelisk which Raziel moved with ease and arguably more quickly while Titus moves damn slowly and he has a loading mechanism hes moving it on, its not like hes scraping it along hte floor so your numbers sound like BS. Quote please, I want to see a quote of a chiansword doing nothing to a space marine helmet. I think about it deeper than you, if you had equeled my study on this you would realise the very edge, which is monomolecular is tiny but the teeth are not, their an inch thick and further the mechanism holds back the chainsword while Kains finger pressure is all Kain. Kaldors not taken this much pressure in 1mm^2 or less.

Not really lol, none of these things have sat in the core of the planet so I think your making tihngs up again.

No you dont, you need less pressure per less surface area, if your blowing a large structrure up then its taking forces on its whole body equelly.

The core was molten? Not solid? this kinda proves the pressure was light then if he could swim in it....Earths core pressure is high enough to keep even iron solid which turns liquid I assume at less temp than the far more durable Adamantium.

Not really, ive yet to hear of a space marines skin taking incredible punishment, sure they can regen and such but apprently the force was not enough to damage his body or knock him far, he went far enough to still impale the demon in the first place...Your saying that based on nothing but the baseless assumption a man in Terminator armour can sit in the core of a planet and then take that force on a small area, never happened.

I like how you list these heroes then for each marine, you add a secondary choice that "may" be stronger. I think your making most of this up because in the books ive read, Eisenhorn, Uriel ventris etc can pull off incredible feats and survive.

Ime not countering two people on the same argument, ill be repeating myself even more than I have to already.

I'm tired and honestly not feeling that great. Haven't even read your post.

I'm going to do something I rarely do, and extend the offer to agree to disagree.

Do you accept?

I do indeed good sir.