Are Jedi in the EU too powerful?

The issue of continuity has long been a tricky one, and almost whenever some of the more outlandish feats from the EU are brought up people are quick to call them overpowered and inconsistent.

This thread not only deals with the concerns about inconsistency but also with the meta-textual issues to do with having characters that powerful. Sometimes its hard to see the EU characters as connected to the movie guys. In short, for whatever reasons, do you think the EU is overpowered?

Here is a classic case of what we're talking about with the inconsistency:

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Really? This has to be one of our most enduring b*tches. Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees.

Well I don't think so. imking

Giga Drains (Nihilus, Dark Reaper, Thought Bomb), supernovas, dimensional wormholes, both Clone Wars series, TFU's and TOR's Dragonball Z powers... I know there's more, but those are what come to mind most often. I really miss the good 'ol days, where the greatest feats of power were Yoda vs. Palpatine.

But if we didn't have all that stuff, these forums would be soooooo boring! Plus I think its slightly silly that Jedi are supposed to take on the advanced tech that the Republic should logically have with such weak powers. If we go by just the movies a dude with a machine gun could run rampant through the Jedi Temple. Force powers in the movies were realy shit. As in I don't know why anyone would really bother.

Do you remember how the Jedi were in the KotOR games? The in-game version. They could jump far, but not that far. They could move things with their mind, but not that much. They could take a lot of punishment, but not that much.

That's the Jedi that I've always liked. Luke being able to leap in the air like in ESB or RotJ--not 20 football fields like Mace. Yoda able to move an X-Wing with a lot of concentration--not a Star Destroyer. Vader choking someone from the other side of a ship--not blowing up a star. Palpatine dishing out Force Lightning---not wormholes.

The acrobatics of TFU and TOR, the DBZ powers, the impossible damage threshold, the planet-killing, mass-destroying Force powers, the countless number of species and individuals who are Force-senstive... there's just... too much. I guess I'm 'okay' with what we have now--it's cool and fun enough. But I'm always gonna look more fondly on the dumbed down, underdeveloped Jedi and Force powers of the OT and KotOR, because that's the Star Wars that first drew me in.

The movies depicted the Force as being a subtle thing- moving objects with the Force, Mind Tricks, etc. The EU depicts it as magic and super powers.

I believe some EU material has suffered because of this. Writers continue to try one-upping each other with the next new shocking power that nobody has ever seen before.

I think that what is displayed in the movies was only so little because of available technology. I believe it was meant to be a little more... powerful than that, but not as much as some of the ridiculous feats in sweu, like some Lucien mentioned.

Short answer: Some(few) are, most aren't.

I agree with Lucien, when I think of "ideal force standards" I set it as Kotor, Force Storm there was what Bane did in the Archives in POD not what Sidious did in DE. I prefer the former to the latter, by far.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
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Really? This has to be one of our most enduring b*tches. Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees.

I'd say short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Depends on the EU thing in question.

The comics released from SW: Republic on (Republic/Clone War/KotoR/Legacy/Dark Times/etc.) tend to be rather good about force power. Even when someone is 'uber-powerful', they don't do any silly fling around starships stuff.

This thread was supposed to have a poll btw. ¬_¬

Originally posted by Q99
I'd say short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Depends on the EU thing in question.

The comics released from SW: Republic on (Republic/Clone War/KotoR/Legacy/Dark Times/etc.) tend to be rather good about force power. Even when someone is 'uber-powerful', they don't do any silly fling around starships stuff.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I haven't read any comics aside from Dark Empire (which sucks BTW),

Yea, later stuff is much better, it's not even the same league.

Basically anything after the PT came out, which set the power levels at proper levels, and unlike the written novel people they stuck with that.

but from what I know about Legacy ala Wookieepedia, there's still a good deal of Force powers being hucked around. Krayt's Lightning Storm that burned Azlyn Rae comes to mind. KotOR looks okay, though.

There's power, but it's much much more subdued than DE stuff and much closer to movie stuff. The one that burned Azlyn was both Krayt and the ancient Sith Lord Karness Muur in a lightning fight and Azlyn literally stuck her lightsaber into the middle of it (pretty much what you'd expect to kill someone), I don't think it's out of line with what movie Palpatine level people could do.

The big 'super force power' that is a key drive for the plot is... strong force healing. Muur's terrifying power is a plague (as in, a literal virus) that he can make and control. In other words, there's some impressive stuff, but it's not "see how many ships I can blow up!" or "I can rip holes in space!" things at any point.

Or there's the Knights of the Old Republic comic, where the main character isn't even a knight, let alone a master, and simply isn't uber at all. Nor do the other knights in the series show any powers that aren't in the movies- TK, visions, and sabers for them.

Why do comics have more subdued Force powers than other media? Kinda backwards.

Lazy animators? Dunno. I have always unabashedly hated how lightsaber duels are drawn in comics, though.

Anyway, as far as force powers go, I don't really mind extreme force powers so long as they aren't obviously just Dungeons and Dragons-esque magic bullshit with "force" used as a prefix; example being creating fireballs/freezing things, creating "creatures" and shapes out of "force energy", the force having a color (only force lightning gets a pass on that one), force fields and flying. As long as it stays within the realm of telekinesis I don't really mind if someone shows the ability to toss a star destroyer; because frankly Yoda struggling to lift an X-Wing is bullshit. In A New Hope we have Vader making casual off-hand remarks about destroying planets being insignificant next to what one can achieve with the force, almost as if he knew from first hand experience, yet we're supposed to believe that one of the wisest and most powerful Jedi in the mythos has only just barely enough power to lift a single ship ten feet into the air? As Neph said, it's hard to take the force seriously, and view jedi as these ultimate warriors whose mere presense casts all observers into a stupor of disbelief, when the abilities they show aren't impressive enough to keep them alive even in our own world. Return of the Sith Yoda with the abilities he showcased in only the movies wouldn't last a day against any real world law enforcement or militia.

Also "wars not make one great". From the OT, I never really gathered that the Jedi were 'soldiers' and certainly not 'warriors'--hence Luke's naive statement. Not monks either, more like peaceful samurai who had a fixation on tangible Buddhism. They 'fought' in the ambiguous Clone Wars, but only Vader and Luke really seemed to have formal military training--for obvious reasons. I never imagined them as some arm of the law or security force. Just a semi-secluded order of weirdos with some cool abilities. It was the Dark Side that offered up powers and offensive capabilities.

But yeah, given what the mythos has become with the onset of the PT, they needed to boost their powers. It's just I wish they had never had the need to. Star Wars has always felt cooler when the Force was smaller and more removed, and it shared a larger spotlight with the space-age technology. It really hit a low for me when The Clone Wars introduced body morphing and teleportation/conjuration---i.e. Dragonball Z.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Also "wars not make one great". From the OT, I never really gathered that the Jedi were 'soldiers' and certainly not 'warriors'--hence Luke's naive statement. Not monks either, more like peaceful samurai who had a fixation on tangible Buddhism. They 'fought' in the ambiguous Clone Wars, but only Vader and Luke really seemed to have formal military training--for obvious reasons. I never imagined them as some arm of the law or security force. Just a semi-secluded order of weirdos with some cool abilities. It was the Dark Side that offered up powers and offensive capabilities.

But Obi-Wan called them the 'defenders of the Republic.'

Edit: Well actually it was 'For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic.'

Close enough

Plus they had ****ing laser swords. I mean come on.

Considering the EU for a moment--given how easily produced lightsabers were (think all those clones of Starkiller), and how most soldiers had a working knowledge of... swords--lightsabers themselves shouldn't mean shite. Also, cortosis... everywhere. Like how a samurai or a knight had a sword and really knew how to use it, but a couple of guys with bows or crossbows--ha ha! Honestly I just never pictured the Jedi as these super-powered ubermensch who could solo armies. Guys who knew how to handle their shit, but could still be defeated by a skilled enough and prepared opponent. The EU has shown us that "Nah, prep and skill be damned--FORCE OWNS EVERYONE!! Now... Kaaaa... meeee... haaaa.... meee... DIE!"

That is naught but boring to me, and it belong in kids shows and silly... video... games... huh. Nevermind, that is exactly what Star Wars has become.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Considering the EU for a moment--given how easily produced lightsabers were (think all those clones of Starkiller), and how most soldiers had a working knowledge of... swords--lightsabers themselves shouldn't mean shite. Also, cortosis... everywhere. Like how a samurai or a knight had a sword and really knew how to use it, but a couple of guys with bows or crossbows--ha ha! Honestly I just never pictured the Jedi as these super-powered ubermensch who could solo armies. Guys who knew how to handle their shit, but could still be defeated by a skilled enough and prepared opponent. The EU has shown us that "Nah, prep and skill be damned--FORCE OWNS EVERYONE!! Now... Kaaaa... meeee... haaaa.... meee... DIE!"

That is naught but boring to me, and it belong in kids shows and silly... video... games... huh. Nevermind, that is exactly what Star Wars has become.

A lightsaber is a bit different than a sword. If you accidentally touch yourself with it you'd lose your arm. Its a weapon that pretty much requires super powers to handle.

And if you had cortosis everywhere, that would seriously undermine the coolness of a lightsaber. A jedi with a lightsaber? Shit, send a few stromtroopers with some cortosis out and let them **** him up royal.

IDK, basically your complaint seems to be 'This isn't the Star Wars I wanted!' No offense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A lightsaber is a bit different than a sword. If you accidentally touch yourself with it you'd lose your arm. Its a weapon that pretty much requires super powers to handle.

And if you had cortosis everywhere, that would seriously undermine the coolness of a lightsaber. A jedi with a lightsaber? Shit, send a few stromtroopers with some cortosis out and let them **** him up royal.

IDK, basically your complaint seems to be 'This isn't the Star Wars [b]I wanted!' No offense. [/B]

The "EU Jedi are too powerful" for a reason. Not because it doesn't make sense in canon (which it doesn't) but because it makes for a very boring story. RotS and The Clone Wars are great examples--lots of explosions and lasers and powers and this, but very much lacking in character development, story, immersion, and likeability. No substance, no... soul, you could say. And I attribute that primarily to the obsession with providing special effects above all else. And the best way to do that in Star Wars is to over-hype the Force.

This is what Star Wars used to be.

This is what Star Wars has become.

And no, it's not a case of nostalgia (I didn't get in to any of this until Ep. III came out). It's a case of cinematic and storytelling quality, and the EU these days is drawing a pretty big deficit.