Are Jedi in the EU too powerful?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The "cortosis everywhere" wasn't my solution, it's Expanded Universe fact: there's cortosis everywhere.

The "EU Jedi are too powerful" for a reason. Not because it doesn't make sense in canon (which it doesn't) but because it makes for a very boring story. RotS and The Clone Wars are great examples--lots of explosions and lasers and powers and this, but very much lacking in character development, story, immersion, and likeability. No substance, no... soul, you could say. And I attribute that primarily to the obsession with providing special effects above all else. And the best way to do that in Star Wars is to over-hype the Force.

This is what Star Wars used to be.

This is what Star Wars has become.

And no, it's not a case of nostalgia (I didn't get in to any of this until Ep. III came out). It's a case of cinematic and storytelling quality, and the EU these days is drawing a pretty big deficit.

I've never run into an overabundence of cortosis except in the Kotor games. And in there: duh. They needed to explain why lightsabers didn't just cut clean through melee weapons and armor.

(I'm assuming that you're talking about the old Clone Wars considering how conservative the new one is with the Force)

I really disagree. You have to remember that the Clone Wars cartoons are just that- cartoons. Their primary purpose is action and entertainment. And they still have a great sense of character and charm. Sure a lot of its fighting, but thats because the entire story is about a war. Thats why its so action focused. And even then I found that it told the story of Anakin's growing anger very well and believably. In fact, I'd say masterfully considering they manage to do it using basically zero words. Its perfect in its character development of him as a likeable, charismatic, powerful Jedi who embraces his growing anger in the face of the war. In my opinion this scene is one of the best in the mythos:

YouTube video

Also: The Clone Wars episodes were about 6 minutes each. 😬

Can't really fit much character development in there.

Other than that theres only really the Force Unleashed series, which I agree is crap. Its enjoyable crap but I agree that its crap in terms of story and heart. And its a video game. I mean come on, its all about fighting.

I'm gonna bold everything you said that's causing me to care less and less about Star Wars.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've never run into an overabundence of cortosis except in the Kotor games. And in there: duh. They needed to explain why lightsabers didn't just cut clean through melee weapons and armor.

(I'm assuming that you're talking about the old Clone Wars considering how conservative the new one is with the Force)

I really disagree. You have to remember that the Clone Wars cartoons are just that- cartoons. Their primary purpose is action and entertainment. And they still have a great sense of character and charm. Sure a lot of its fighting, but thats because the entire story is about a war. Thats why its so action focused. And even then I found that it told the story of Anakin's growing anger very well and believably. In fact, I'd say masterfully considering they manage to do it using basically zero words. Its perfect in its character development of him as a likeable, charismatic, powerful Jedi who embraces his growing anger in the face of the war. In my opinion this scene is one of the best in the mythos:

YouTube video

Also: The Clone Wars episodes were about 6 minutes each. 😬

Can't really fit much character development in there.

Other than that theres only really the Force Unleashed series, which I agree is crap. Its enjoyable crap but I agree that its crap in terms of story and heart. And its a video game. I mean come on, its all about fighting.

Actually I was talking about The Clone Wars (CGI), not Clone Wars (anime). The CGI is nothing but an explosion-filled, laser-crossed, saber-studded, trite-stuffed, kid-targeted, snore-fest. It really says something about the comparative quality when the 6-minute shorts that were f*cking jacked with over-the-top superpowers and limited dialogue and exposition had better character development. The only decent bit of growth Anakin (or anyone) faced in the CGI was his trials with the Son and Daughter. Which he promptly forgot.

Look, my point is that all the major releases since the PT ended are becoming more and more... ridiculous. And like I said, I'm attributing that to LucasArts' determination to milk the flashy cow as much as possible. The Force Unleashed games are the prime example of that. BioWare's past genius in KotOR is being squandered on a MMORPG that by its very nature, doesn't end. The orbiting stories they release to market it are rushed and half-assed--e.g. the shitty Revan excerpts and the shoddy Timeline videos coupled with the Dragonball trailers. The Bane novels follow the same super-powered, poorly written fanfic formula, the Legacy comics are all about "Look--Sith! And lightsabers! And a KotOR reference! And the Empire again! And dead Jedi again! And cool Force powers again! And Skywalker again!" Nothing good, just flashy, fun, stupid entertainment.

And I'm fine with that! So long as that was all there ever was. But Star Wars has been 100x better--the OT, KotOR, many of the earlier novels... I actually struggled to think of anything else--oh, the Jedi Knight series. Good stories with interesting characters and plots. Most of it done without the use of TFU/TOR/Clone Wars/PT/DE/Legacy/POD etc. style "LOOK AT OUR COOL STUFF, BRO!"

And more's on the way, I guarantee it. As soon as motion-controls are patched up enough, a multi-console lightsaber hack-and-slash will be released. I foresee a Left 4 Dead style game---lots of limbs, and not an ounce of story. Doubtless it will involve Darth Vader and Starkiller's clone teaming up with time-traveling Jedi from the future to combat an extra-dimensional Sith threat! My God... the LucasArts staff will be blinded by the dollar signs in their eyes.

It's why I'm kinda glad Tolkien's dead.

I don't really see how you can blame the CGI Clone Wars being crappy on EU Jedi being overpowered. The CGI is very similar to the movies in terms of abilities and action.

As to the other stuff, video games are by their very nature focused on conflict and fighting and thats where most of this is coming from. I give zero shit about this because it can improve combat. I mean, no-one wants to fight with shit Force powers. It can be done. If you like the more low key stuff you still have Kotor and the Jedi Knight games.

Other than that, you havn't read the Legacy stuff so you can't judge it and nothing else has anything to do with overpowered Jedi.

There are shitty parts of every franchise. It doesn't make it all shit. The Plagueis novel looks ****ing sweet. I think you're just frustrated at some of the shittier aspects of Star Wars. But thats why I made the 'parts of SW you ignore' thread. Just ignore those parts, no-ones making you watch or read them. I mean, you're clearly not the intended demographic for Clone War CGI. Don't get pissed when you hate it, is all I'm saying.

You're glad Tolkeins dead because Star Wars sucks and isn't like it used to be? What, because LotR had so much character development and soul, amiright? ¬_¬

P.S. The TOR trailers are ****ing awesome. Screw the haters.

Oh God! We're breaking this down in to point-by-points.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't really see how you can blame the CGI Clone Wars being crappy on EU Jedi being overpowered. The CGI is very similar to the movies in terms of abilities and action.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As to the other stuff, video games are by their very nature focused on conflict and fighting and thats where most of this is coming from. I give zero shit about this because it can improve combat. I mean, no-one wants to fight with shit Force powers. It can be done. If you like the more low key stuff you still have Kotor and the Jedi Knight games.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Other than that, you havn't read the Legacy stuff so you can't judge it and nothing else has anything to do with overpowered Jedi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There are shitty parts of every franchise. It doesn't make it all shit. The Plagueis novel looks ****ing sweet. I think you're just frustrated at some of the shittier aspects of Star Wars. But thats why I made the 'parts of SW you ignore' thread. Just ignore those parts, no-ones making you watch or read them. I mean, you're clearly not the intended demographic for Clone War CGI. Don't get pissed when you hate it, is all I'm saying.

#1: It's making for some really b*tchin' and cool stuff, like The Old Republic trailers, or The Force Unleashed gameplay, or the mindlessly silly and thought-free television show. I love that those things exist, because I like those kinds of things. But the cost is--

#2: De-valuing and depreciating the quality storytelling that the Star Wars name used to possess. As I've said ad nauseum, the stories and characters suck these days. Lazy/inept writers, marketing schedules, focus on visuals more than emotion, rushed production, lack of original ideas, over-dependence on Force powers.

"Beauty is as beauty does." The Star Wars Trilogy was a cinematic masterpiece not just for its pretty starships and laser swords. That realization seems to have been lost on it's license holders nowadays who are convinced that a good medium is defined by how many colors and superpowers they can shove in to a scene.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're glad Tolkeins dead because Star Wars sucks and isn't like it used to be? What, because LotR had so much character development and soul, amiright? ¬_¬

Originally posted by Nephthys
P.S. The TOR trailers are ****ing awesome. Screw the haters.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh God! We're breaking this down in to point-by-points.

Oh ****! We're doing this bro! We're actually debating!

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The CGI isn't too overpowered, but it is... what's the word... flashy. Very flashy. And not in the fun, entertaining way the games give us. I marathoned the first three seasons and boy howdy did all the action just start to suck. It was just so... flashy. In that crappy, pre-determined, kinda way. The QTE fights in TFU are actually very stylish and creative looking, but the CGI fights... ugh. Every single person with a lightsaber is on par with everyone else. I don't know how they managed to pull that off, but they did it. So no, the CGI isn't any more over-powered than the PT, but the animation, characters, plot-direction, and the lightsaber fights suck ballz. Like, a lot. It's my third biggest peeve with the show.

Oh, I agree. I don't like the CGI anymore than you do. And I agree with TFU being better. At least in that theres was the was weight and it made you feel like a badass. The first time Starkiller rammed Rahm Kota's head into the ceiling I was like 'Woah! Jesuschrist!' The CGI is just...... gaudy. I guess its just not visuably appealling.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I do, because of its throwback to the OT, which I hold as the only 'worthwhile' Star Wars. No fancy powers, no flashy sword fights. Lots of character development (moreso for KotOR than JA, but still both more than most others) and immersive stories. TFU was designed to be short and sweet, and if that's all you care about, those games are masterpieces. I care far more about story and contribution the mythos' canon than I do about performing a super sweet combo on a Shadow Guard with my compressed red lightsaber and Darth Stalker skin.

Again I agree. I care much more about plot than gameplay, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy mndless action every now and then.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I've read enough of the 29 issues I have on my hard drive to recognize crappy, flashy, fan-style comic when I see it. The PT is unadulterated crap no matter the level of Force powers (the lightsaber fights are still soulless and boring). The Clone Wars CGI follows suit brilliantly. The anime is over-powered Force powers incarnate. TFU and TOR are brothers in that same category (though at least the MMO's trailers and QTE's for TFU are actually cool). And the Bane novels are the Bane novels--global Force Storms, global life-drainers, lightsaber-resistant super beetles, and Drew Karpyshyn-written saber fights--that is to say, "meh". I've never actually finished DoE, so I won't judge that book beyond the first four agonizing chapters.

Eh, I havn't so I can't say. But I've heard nice things about it.

Agreed on both points. The PT and CW can push off.

I love the anime, but I guess we had to disagree on something.

I liked TFU and TOR looks good.

Meh on the Bane novels. I didn't even start DoE. I got to the fighting the rain part and lost interest.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You're missing my point. I DO ignore them. That doesn't mean they're immune from criticism or scorn. I don't pay attention to Saudi Arabia's treatment of women but that doesn't mean I'm not gonna criticize the glaring flaws when I see them, or that I should pretend it doesn't exist. The post-2005 Star Wars material is not the Star Wars I like--the stories are on average, crap, the characters suck, the lightsaber fights and Force powers are tiresome and overblown (on average--some gems do exist). And in response to your OP, yes, they are over-powered, and it's having two effects:

#1: It's making for some really b*tchin' and cool stuff, like The Old Republic trailers, or The Force Unleashed gameplay, or the mindless silliness and thought-free television show. I love that those things exist, because I like those kinds of things. But the cost is--

#2: De-valuing and depreciating the quality storytelling that the Star Wars name used to possess. As I've said ad nauseum, the stories and characters suck these days. Lazy/inept writers, marketing schedules, focus on visuals more than emotion, rushed production, lack of original ideas, over-dependence on Force powers.

"Beauty is as beauty does." The Star Wars Trilogy was a cinematic masterpiece not just for its pretty starships and laser swords. That realization seems to have been lost on it's license holders nowadays who are convinced that a good medium is defined by how many colors and superpowers they can shove in to a scene.

Fair enough. Very well said. I seem to be struggling to disagree here.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm glad Tolkien's dead because now we'll never have to curse his name like we do Lucas for re-writing The Hobbit to include Bilbo lassoing Smuag and riding him back to the Shire.

Well the Hobbit movie's coming up so theres still time for us to be cursing someones name. 😉

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
F*ckin A.

I just wish Legend wouldn't hype them so much. I suppose every sunny day has a drought.

Sorry for the short sentences. I'm running on steam. :C

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Why do comics have more subdued Force powers than other media? Kinda backwards.

Possibly because they're visual, and thus it's easier to match to the movies.

Possibly because they're just choosier on writers than the novels, with more feedback too. You only have 3~ writers doing comics at a time, and editors get to watch 'em issue by issue and give input as they go.

They've been very good at getting good writers.

RE: Blax

Lazy animators? Dunno. I have always unabashedly hated how lightsaber duels are drawn in comics, though.

It is harder to do much interesting swordwork in the comic medium, though, since each position has to take up a page. A long duel'd be boooring.

Nephthys

Eh, I havn't so I can't say. But I've heard nice things about it.

There's some love-and-hate. It does *great* world building in the era, and shows some side-stories of some very cool characters, like Admiral Gar Stazi. Because of this, though, it does jump around a bit rather than tell one continuous story. You'll be reading about Cade, then you'll be reading a cool boots-on-the-ground Stormtrooper story, or a flashback to Gar Stazi vs the Imperials at the start of the war, and so on. Also, Cade Skywalker is an interesting character but not really the most likable one, so there's some love-and-hate your milage may vary reactions. His story is someone who doesn't want to be a Jedi or a Skywalker at all.

As a story, the Knights of the Old Republic comic is more focused and smoother. As a general Star Wars thing, though, Legacy is still really kickass.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sorry for the short sentences. I'm running on steam. :C

In conclusion: New graphics and powers=cool!, but story suffers concomitantly.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Also "wars not make one great". From the OT, I never really gathered that the Jedi were 'soldiers' and certainly not 'warriors'--hence Luke's naive statement. Not monks either, more like peaceful samurai who had a fixation on tangible Buddhism. They 'fought' in the ambiguous Clone Wars, but only Vader and Luke really seemed to have formal military training--for obvious reasons. I never imagined them as some arm of the law or security force. Just a semi-secluded order of weirdos with some cool abilities. It was the Dark Side that offered up powers and offensive capabilities.

I se your point but, in the OT, right from the start, Ben Kenobi says "for over a thousand years the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice."

"Guardians of peace and justice" means they HAD to have had some focus on developing martial ability. Plus, they carried lightsabres for a reason, they weren't there for decoration.

Yes, I know Nephthys basically said this already but I still wanted to throw my own two pennies in.

Every penny helps.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh God! We're breaking this down in to point-by-points.

The CGI isn't too overpowered, but it is... what's the word... flashy. Very flashy. And not in the fun, entertaining way the games give us. I marathoned the first three seasons and boy howdy did all the action just start to suck. It was just so... flashy. In that crappy, pre-determined, kinda way.

I wuldnt say Flashy. I would just say it gets repetitive, to the point where the action becomes boring.

Not like the good old days where a Lightsaber fight was really something to look forward to.

No, it's flashy. The 4th season has scaled back a bit, but the previous three... flashy. And because it was that, it became repetitive and boring.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
I se your point but, in the OT, right from the start, Ben Kenobi says "for over a thousand years the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice."

"Guardians of peace and justice" means they HAD to have had some focus on developing martial ability. Plus, they carried lightsabres for a reason, they weren't there for decoration.

Yes, I know Nephthys basically said this already but I still wanted to throw my own two pennies in.

Kenobi's line was vague, but never from the OT did I imagine them to be the definition of warrior. Which they are, in everything outside of the OT. You know how King Arthur's knights were the guardians of Camelot, but if you fired an arrow in to him he'll still die like anyone else? Like that for the Jedi---highly skilled, ordinary people who take it upon themselves to do what they can for peace and justice.