Originally posted by MF DELPH
Needless to say I disagree. Apocalypse's armor has always been Celestial tech based. Now, granted, in more recent stories Apocalypse's role and relationship with the Celestials as their agent/'gardener' has been introduced and more fleshed out (first introduced in a fuller context in the Blood of Apocalypse arc. Before that Apocalypse had been depicted as just co-opting Ship and created the armor himself from Celestial tech over centuries of study), but I disagree that this particular armor was a one off as Apocalypse integrated his body into the armor prior to the Gorr Arc, and that origin (Apocalypse finding ship and creating the armor) has in fact been retconned via the Blood of Apocalypse Arc to being that the Celestial's actually gifted Ship to Apocalypse and took him into their employ, further expanded recently in Age of Ultron/Uncanny Avengers to being that an "Apocalypse" is basically the 'herald' of the Celestials and that his role is essential to them and their plans for Earth, with the armor he received (and which Holocaust/Genocide was going to receive until the Twins intervened and interrupted the ritual) being part of the christening of a new Celestial Gardener. This new info just gives us more background on the armor's origins and scope. It's still the same armor Apocalypse had since receiving Ship, which has now been retconned to being given to Apocalypse on purpose.
I'm pretty much in agreement with ODG.
We mostly need to wait and see, but claiming that this armor is now always part of his arsenal when all the available evidence would suggest otherwise is ridiculous.
In the very same comic it was revealed, it was extremely damaged, most likely beyond repair. If it was as simple as healing himself and the armor, Apocalypse wouldn't have been barely conscious and have to flee for his life and the axe wouldn't be killing Celestials like hand ninjas.
It's very plausible that this armor was granted to him by the Celestials and had to be discarded for less durable duplications. Either way we don't know, but there's no basis for treating this anymore than isolated incident at this point in time.
There isn't any evidence to suggest otherwise, though. All we see is Apocalypse get cleaved with the axe, then he blows up his base, but he survives. There's nothing to base the armor being irreparably damaged upon. As a matter of fact, Apocalypse's appearance in Messiah War where he is able to interface with Ship and restore himself and his armor after being left for dead by Stryfe and Bishop lends more credence to my point of view. Apocalypse didn't enter his armory and place a new suit of armor on, he powered himself up and reformed it simply by interfacing with Celestial Technology as the armor is part of his form.
Originally posted by MF DELPHAnd it hasn't been depicted as, either.
Not necessarily. Apocalypse could have just retreated and recovered (that battle was in the 11th Century). I can't say definitively that the armor he was wearing in the 12th Century when he fought Sersi and created Exodus was the exact same set but it hasn't been depicted otherwise.
Originally posted by MF DELPHEvan received a suit of Apocalypse armor at the end of the original Uncanny X-Force run. He ended up rejecting it under Wolverine and Deadpool's guidance.
As for Evan, who was a clone, he never received the armor
Originally posted by MF DELPHAgain, you are just assuming Apocalypse inseparably merged with the original suit of Celestial-gifted armor rather than another separate suit of armor or that Apocalypse could never lose the original suit of Celestial-gifted armor even when sliced by Jarnbjorn.
or merged with it via the Transmode Virus, and also, unlike the original Apocalypse, as was shown in Blood of Apocalypse when Cable dropped some of the original Apocalypse's blood into a tub of blood and organs and he reformed, the techno-organic virus which the original Apocalypse had integrated into his body allowed him to overwrite genetic material and recreate his body. Evan isn't En Sabah Nur and didn't have the Transmode virus, so Evan would be like Ironman putting on a suit. En Sabah Nur, on the other hand, actually merged with his suit and made it part of his body. In the in comic chronological timeline Apocalypse became techno-organic in Ancient Egypt in a fight with Cable prior to receiving and interfacing with Ship (I think it was in Fantastic Four 19 or Cable #8, can't remember which one off the top of my head).
Originally posted by MF DELPHEvan not being equal to Apocalypse is an opinion -- and one that can be fairly argued -- but is nevertheless wholly irrelevant to my point. That there are different suits of Apocalypse armor which exist is a fact -- like the one Evan wore and then took off -- that is relevant to the discussion as to whether or not Apocalypse has only ever had his one Celestial-gifted, invulnerable armor or has possibly had different ones.
Anyway, Evan and Original Apocalypse aren't the same animal.
I need to clarify the context of that second quote. When I said Evan didn't receive the armor or merge with it I meant to say "and merge with it" as the complete statement. The or was an error that changed the meaning. What I meant was that Evan didn't incorporate it into his body as Apocalypse did. Evan is not techno-organic like the original Apocalypse was via the Transmode virus infection.
The instance I referenced in Messiah War evidences that the original Apocalypse, En Sabah Nur, has the armor incorporated into his body as he was able to reform it after interfacing with Ship.
Originally posted by MF DELPHExcept for all the dead Celestials the Apocalypse twins have left in their wake using Jarnbjorn. There have been plenty of weapons and attacks that have damaged and pierced Celestials on-panel before, like the Odinsword, Phoenix/optic blast assault, Godblast, Mjolnir slam, etc. They almost always just reform in rather nonchalant fashion.
There isn't any evidence to suggest otherwise, though. All we see is Apocalypse get cleaved with the axe, then he blows up his base, but he survives. There's nothing to base the armor being irreparably damaged upon.
Jarnbjorn is different. It doesn't just pierce, it apparently destroys. Irreparably so.
I'm not following that line of reasoning. Apocalypse survived the assault. All of those Celestials received fatal attacks. There's clearly a difference in the properties of the Celestials and Apocalypse because the assault on Apocalypse wasn't fatal despite being a killing blow. Apocalypse survived long into the future. Possibly the fact that the Celestials are energy beings inside of their armors whereas Apocalypse is a techno-organic being.
Originally posted by MF DELPHSounds like you answered your own question. Because Apocalypse is luckily, more than just a Celestial. He's also a mutant and he's got techo-organic traits. If he were just a Celestial, he'd be dead. Like all the other Celestials that have been killed by Jarnbjorn. Jarnbjorn, as we all agree, is specifically Celestial bane. Hell, Thor tanked the axe being embedded into his chest without dying either. But unlike all the other various attacks that the Celestials have suffered to their form without pause -- Thor chucking the Odisword through Arishem's chest, for instance -- Jarnbjorn can destroy their forms irreparably.
I'm not following that line of reasoning. Apocalypse survived the assault. All of those Celestials received fatal attacks. There's clearly a difference in the properties of the Celestials and Apocalypse because the assault on Apocalypse wasn't fatal despite being a killing blow. Apocalypse survived long into the future. Possibly the fact that the Celestials are energy beings inside of their armors whereas Apocalypse is a techno-organic being.
Which is evidence that Apocalypse's armor in that scene -- where we all agree as fact that it was Celestially-gifted to be invulnerable -- was damaged beyond repair. Because Jarnbjorn is specifically enchanted to do just that.
Originally posted by MF DELPHYour observation is still irrelevant to the fact that there are different suits of Apocalypse armors. And again, whether or not Evan could merge with the suit via the t-o virus is still an arguable point. Evan may have inherited the t-o virus just by virtue of being resurrected/cloned by Clan Akkaba/Fantomex. Sure, we haven't seen Evan be explicitly exposed to the t-o virus on-panel anywhere, but that is all a rather moot point, as it's not like Evan lacks morphological powers over his own molecular structure. It's in his powerset.
I need to clarify the context of that second quote. When I said Evan didn't receive the armor or merge with it I meant to say "and merge with it" as the complete statement. The or was an error that changed the meaning. What I meant was that Evan didn't incorporate it into his body as Apocalypse did. Evan is not techno-organic like the original Apocalypse was via the Transmode virus infection.
Originally posted by MF DELPHWhich assumes that Apocalypse repaired and reformed the original Celestial-gifted armor after it was shredded by Jarnbjorn and that it wasn't irreparably damaged. Apocalypse could have reformed a different set of armor. A replacement perhaps, for the originally gifted Celestial suit.
The instance I referenced in Messiah War evidences that the original Apocalypse, En Sabah Nur, has the armor incorporated into his body as he was able to reform it after interfacing with Ship.
I'm still not following your line of reasoning. Apocalypse, unlike the Celestials, survived the assault. There's zero evidence to suggest that he then ditched the armor he was wearing because of the axe wound, and there is also zero evidence to suggest that, even granting the possibility that Apocalypse did don a different set of Celestial armor after the fact, that the 'new' Celestial armor was of a lower grade than the original, given that the Celestials not only provided him with the armor but also one of their sentient ships and their technology, as well as christening him their agent on Earth and gave him the Death Seed, so he would have all of the resources necessary, as their agent, to repair or recreate the armor, if need be, since he used the same Celestial Technology to create more armor (which wouldn't be "knockoff" armor as it would be incorporating first grade Celestial tech and materials provided by Ship and the Celestials).
Originally posted by MF DELPHExcept the evidence that Jarnbjorn has irreparably damaged Celestials proper despite them having been able to reform their armor/bodies after other attacks that have shredded them.
I'm still not following your line of reasoning. Apocalypse, unlike the Celestials, survived the assault. There's zero evidence to suggest that he then ditched the armor he was wearing because of the axe wound,
The proposition that Apocalypse's originally gifted Celestial armor was irreparably damaged beyond repair is supported by the fact that Jarnbjorn's specifically been used to irreparably damage the Celestials' own armor beyond repair. This is evidence. How is it not evidence?
Originally posted by MF DELPHThe armor isn't created with the Death Seed or by the Celestial ship. Per the retcon, it's an entirely separate thing from either as we see Genocide inside Apocalypse's ship, having newly received a Death Seed, but being stopped the moment before receiving proper Apocalypse armor. He had the ship already as his base of operations having inherited it after Archangel's death, he had just been given a Death Seed... the Celestial didn't tell him to bugger off and create his own armor. Genocide had to wait for it and got interrupted by Eimin and Uriel.
and there is also zero evidence to suggest that, even granting the possibility that Apocalypse did don a different set of Celestial armor after the fact, that the 'new' Celestial armor was of a lower grade than the original, given that the Celestials not only provided him with the armor but also one of their sentient ships and their technology, as well as christening him their agent on Earth and gave him the Death Seed, so he would have all of the resources necessary, as their agent, to repair or recreate the armor, if need be,
Originally posted by MF DELPHAgain, you're simply assuming Apocalypse, in fact, recreated the same original armor on his own with his Celestial technology. Rather than being only able to provide Apocalypse the necessary resources to manufacture reasonably close, but not bonafide invulnerable, copies.
since he used the same Celestial Technology to create more armor (which wouldn't be "knockoff" armor as it would be incorporating first grade Celestial tech and materials provided by Ship and the Celestials).
This assumption also overlooking other plot hole absurdities such as a Celestial ship capable of accomplishing what a Celestial itself cannot? Repairing invulnerable armor rent apart by Jarnbjorn? And Evan having received, and refused, an invulnerable Celestial armor... one suit of which was just lying around for Daken and Sabretooth to find?
I'm still not following your line of reasoning. Jarnbjorn killed the Celestials outright. They didn't have the opportunity to regenerate. Eimin killed the Celestial Gardener that was going to give Genocide the Celestial Armor in what, one or two blows? Apocalypse was able to survive with Jarnbjorn cleaved from his shoulder to mid chest. That clearly shows that the effect of the assaults on the Celestials and the assault on Apocalypse by Thor was different, and the blow from the axe doesn't just cause the armor to dissolve to nothingness.
At this point there is no evidence to suggest that Apocalypse's armor was irreparably damaged and discarded. Assuming the armor was irreparably damaged, there is zero evidence that Apocalypse was unable to repair it or create a new armor of equal quality, just as there's zero evidence for or against Apocalypse simply asking the Celestial Gardener for a replacement armor (which, apparently, it was capable of providing since the Gardener was able to provide Genocide with an armor upon deeming him worthy). It's wholely possible, though there is zero evidence, that the armor that was given to Evan could have been a backup armor provided by the Celestial Gardener that Apocalypse simply kept stored as a contingency plan and was discovered by Archangel and Co. during the Dark Angel Arc. Moreover, the notion of Apocalypse creating the armors he wore himself was a product of his original origin which was his make-shifting the armor by interfacing with Ship and incorporating their technology into his body, which he happened upon by accident. That has been retconned to a purposeful event orchestrated by the Celestials themselves, with Apocalypse playing no part in the crafting of the armor at all and having it provided to him as their herald/"Caretaker".
I think we're at "agree to disagree" territory now, though.
None of this discussion changes the fact that, until more on-panel evidence and feats are provided, Thanos is above, and beating, Apocalypse. My Apocalypse fandom, no matter how steadfast, doesn't change that fact.
Originally posted by MF DELPHOne blow. It insta-kills Celestials. On-panel and off-panel. It doesn't dissolve their armor into nothingness. Just damages it beyond all repair. This is evidence that Celestial armor can be damaged beyond all repair. A notion you seem to be offended by, despite the obviousness of it all.
I'm still not following your line of reasoning. Jarnbjorn killed the Celestials outright. They didn't have the opportunity to regenerate. Eimin killed the Celestial Gardener that was going to give Genocide the Celestial Armor in what, one or two blows? Apocalypse was able to survive with Jarnbjorn cleaved from his shoulder to mid chest. That clearly shows that the effect of the assaults on the Celestials and the assault on Apocalypse by Thor was different, and the blow from the axe doesn't just cause the armor to dissolve to nothingness.
Originally posted by MF DELPHI don't get how you keep ignoring that this is what Jarnbjorn was specifically enchanted to do. It won't insta-kill Thor or a techno-virus enhanced mutant donning Celestial armor, but it causes damage to Celestial armor beyond repair. Damage to Abstract beings who have had their physical armor/bodies destroyed, shattered, cleaved, stabbed, and who generally never are bothered by such damage because they almost always can simply reform immediately... just not when cleaved by Jarnbjorn. It's special that way.
At this point there is no evidence to suggest that Apocalypse's armor was irreparably damaged and discarded.
Originally posted by MF DELPHActually, there's zero evidence that shows Apocalypse can recreate bonafide Celestial armors willy-nilly. Your references to his possession of a Death Seed and the Celestial ship proved to be wholly separate matters from the Celestial armor, as shown when Genocide's ascension was interrupted.
Assuming the armor was irreparably damaged, there is zero evidence that Apocalypse was unable to repair it or create a new armor of equal quality,
Originally posted by MF DELPHThe Celestials don't strike me as the type of beings who answer Apocalypse's supply needs like pizza delivery men.
just as there's zero evidence for or against Apocalypse simply asking the Celestial Gardener for a replacement armor (which, apparently, it was capable of providing since the Gardener was able to provide Genocide with an armor upon deeming him worthy). It's wholely possible, though there is zero evidence, that the armor that was given to Evan could have been a backup armor provided by the Celestial Gardener that Apocalypse simply kept stored as a contingency plan and was discovered by Archangel and Co. during the Dark Angel Arc.
Apocalypse: "Yo, 1-800-ARMR-PLZ, sum blonde douche jus wreckd my armorz, I needz new one. Like, rite naoz."
Celestial: "Be right there, sir. Try not to get this new one damaged. Also, we'll throw in another one with this next delivery in case you get your ass kicked by Scott Summers."
Apocalypse: "Who?"
Celestial: "... forget I said that. Don't worry about it. Not for another 1,000 years anyway."
Apocalypse: "When?"
Celestial: "Bye now!"
Originally posted by MF DELPHA notion which could seemlessly fall in line with Rage.Of.Olympus' actual argument. That Apocalypse can generate armor on his own, but at one point in time, Apocalypse had a really special suit of armor that was invulnerable, but damaged beyond repair by a weapon that was specifically enchanted to do just that.
Moreover, the notion of Apocalypse creating the armors he wore himself was a product of his original origin which was his make-shifting the armor by interfacing with Ship and incorporating their technology into his body, which he happened upon by accident.
Originally posted by MF DELPHYou actually don't have to so absolutist as the retcon didn't explicitly do away with Apocalypse's ship, or Apocalypse stumbling upon it accidentally, or Apocalypse discovering eventually that he would be the beneficiary of Celestial technology. And Apocalypse having the ability to create his own bastardized armor that seems to not be as formidable as the bonafide Celestial one he fought Thor with way in the past is actually a notion that Rage.Of.Olympus' arguments revolve around and hinge upon.
That has been retconned to a purposeful event orchestrated by the Celestials themselves, with Apocalypse playing no part in the crafting of the armor at all and having it provided to him as their herald/"Caretaker".I think we're at "agree to disagree" territory now, though.
None of this discussion changes the fact that, until more on-panel evidence and feats are provided, Thanos is above, and beating, Apocalypse. My Apocalypse fandom, no matter how steadfast, doesn't change that fact.
Agreed. It's possible Apocalypse could be perpetually donning repaired/replaced invulnerable Celestial armors, but if I could have disproved it, I would have. But proving the negative here is a rather lopsided burden and the subject just isn't that important to me. I just don't think it's likely and I think a close examination of the facts and circumstances bears that out.
Ok.
Just a couple things, then I'm done-done:
-The Celestial Gardener's role was to tend to the Caretaker (Apocalypse, or his heir), so chances are it actually would have provided Apocalypse with the tools he would need to perform his role as Apocalypse is their employee.
-The axe is enchanted to kill the Celestials instantly (I won't go into the big plot hole with Odin not simply enchanting the Destroyer and Odinsword with the spell at the 4th Host...). It stands to reason that, with the spell meant to kill Celestials, and Apocalypse not being a Celestial, the spell was able to bypass his protection (the armor) but didn't kill him as he's not a Celestial, though in the case of actual Celestials when the blade pierces the armor that's all she wrote so they can't reform their armor as they're dead.
Not posting this to get the last word and you're welcome to retort, just wanted to touch on those points. I'm done with this topic.
Originally posted by MF DELPHWho knows? Maybe the Celestials didn't think Apocalypse could ever lose his invulnerable Celestial armor to a hidden plot device axe that has done what no other weapon has ever done before. Maybe Apocalypse was just too embarrassed to ask for another. Or maybe he thought his own bastardized versions would be better suited anyway since the original armor was just cut down by a weapon that rendered it useless.
Ok.Just a couple things, then I'm done-done:
-The Celestial Gardener's role was to tend to the Caretaker (Apocalypse, or his heir), so chances are it actually would have provided Apocalypse with the tools he would need to perform his role as Apocalypse is their employee.
It's not exactly unreasonable for Apocalypse to stop using an armor that has a brutally glaring flaw, no matter its other strengths.
Originally posted by MF DELPHNot sure how this observation runs counter to anything I've said. Celestials do have their armor bypassed all the time though. Thor bashed and blasted Exitar's domepiece. Arishem was ran through by the Odinsword. There's only one weapon that took em apart beyond their abilities to heal/reform though.
-The axe is enchanted to kill the Celestials instantly (I won't go into the big plot hole with Odin not simply enchanting the Destroyer and Odinsword with the spell at the 4th Host...). It stands to reason that, with the spell meant to kill Celestials, and Apocalypse not being a Celestial, the spell was able to bypass his protection (the armor) but didn't kill him as he's not a Celestial, though in the case of actual Celestials when the blade pierces the armor that's all she wrote so they can't reform their armor as they're dead.
Anyway, that big plot hole might be more topical than you think. Odin and Thor had this random uber axe to kill Celestials. At least, they definitely knew about it even if it wasn't in their immediate possession (which, again, isn't even really clear). But they ended up eschewing its use. A somewhat baffling act of behavior that would mirror Apocalypse not ever replacing his invulnerable Celestial armor, should it have been permanently destroyed in that fight.
Obviously, these absurd turns in behavior are simply casualties of plot. But you can't tell me this new retcon shouldn't make Apocalypse look dumb for never trying to replace his armor when Odin/Thor never bothered to use the enchantment/axe again during the Fourth Celestial Host confrontation. And, again, maybe if you think hard enough, there are perfectly logical explanations. Either way, Remender is more concerned with the now than the past, possible unintentional character assassinations aside.
And since that's obviously the case, I highly doubt that Remender was forever redefining every Apocalypse fight seen on-panel because, hey! indestructible armor that can kick the sh1t out of drunk Thor.
Originally posted by MF DELPHThis discussion turned out to be more interesting than I initially anticipated. So I'm sad now.
Not posting this to get the last word and you're welcome to retort, just wanted to touch on those points. I'm done with this topic.