Kain vs. Samus Aran

Started by Burning thought3 pages

Originally posted by The Scenario
Evidence for that one?

Note the video I posted before, the one where Samus launches a hundred feet upwards and can still shoot. Her fighting style is mostly made up of tossing herself through the air and I doubt Kain really target her moving like that anyway. The thrust that let's Samus fly is her jumps. The Space Jump upgrade lets her do unlimited spin jumps.

See, you're going to need to prove that "doesn't touch obstacles" thing first. You'd need to prove that Kain can still call/influence the blood when there is a substantial obstacle in the way. The force field field blocks demonic possession and telepathy; magic is not much of a stretch given that Samus has fought magic wielding foes before.

Can't receive telepathy, as in telepathic signals cannot directly access her mind.

http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Alimbic_Datashade

She usually just scans them. You know, because of the force field and suit in the way. Kain can't access her mind because of this, you realize. He can't control her mind if he can't reach it, and even then her willpower and resistance to such things would make her more or less immune to Kain's mind control.

Dark Samus. Phazon. Dark Samus is made of phazon, but there is no dark phazon. Now that that's out of the way, it is not "corruption" in the way you're using the term. It's not slow, and it's not using temptation or offerings or anything like that. It's a radioactive poison, one that Dark Samus can control you with once its in your system. Resisting that kind of assault does, in fact require some good mental fortitude. They're both mind control, and need a strong will to resist. Same thing, slightly different mechanism.

The evidence shown contradicts it or support it depending on context. That scan is something from the first Metroid Prime, with Space Pirates experimenting with it. The difference being back then there was no Dark Samus controlling it, so the victims simply went insane. Yes, phazon can cause brain damage, but it can also disintegrate things on contact and bind ghosts and spirits to the mortal plane. Point being phazon is a context based, plot based material that just does "whatever." In the specific instance of Space Pirates injecting phazon into their blood or eating phazon mushrooms, yes, it caused brain damage and increased muscle mass. In the specific instance of Dark Samus implanting a phazon "seed of corruption," there is no evidence of brain damage in any of the 4 Hunters. In fact, take another look at the videos I linked you earlier: Rundas was being directly puppeted by Dark Samus, Ghor went after Samus' ship to prevent her from escaping, and Gandrayda set a trap disguised as a Galactic Federation Trooper. Do any of them appear to have any brain damage at all? Aside from suddenly obeying Dark Samus, none of them have reduced faculties at all. Except Rundas, but again: puppet.

No physical form, victim dies without it, compared to an "essence." Sounds suitably soul sucky.

So far, Samus kills Kain with a single shot of the plasma beam, has resistance to or immunity to everything he can dish out, and can kill him as a ball. Samus probably will end up dying of old age, though Kain would'nt be so lucky. (These points are still be discussed in other paragraphs, please don't assume you've you won them.)

The whole game is set in Nosgoths distant past and Kain spends the majority of it outside, both in the Sarafan stronghold and in the marshes etc.

Yes because her launching upwards under her own power is teh same as Kain throwing her around...no...so she cant fly? she just jumps?

I dont have to prove any of those things, it never comes up in the spells "cant do" list, if you want to prove Samus' suit can counter magic then go and do so, making up reasons why blood shower wont work randomly without evidence is typical of your argument style. Its enough of a stretch here, forcefields and such work on forces striking them, where no force strikes them other than Samus' blood pouring inside her suit (assuming it cant get to Kain) then it wont help her.

You seem to be just making things up here, youve yet to show me any actual resistance, just things she does such as opening transmissions, shes never actually fought sorcery or mind control from what youve actually shown.

Its a physical substence that damages brain cells and makes you work for it once its taken you, theres no comparison there to actual mental control but more as the source says corruption, your reaching. And resisting that assault just means you can resist phazon itself.

I looked at the videos and I am seeing nothing different to what this source states, brain damage and control from Phazon itself, Dark Samus is simply another entity working for the Phazon because if I am correct, she is also part of the phazon. Its like physical possession, alike to head crabs in half life only with phazon instead.

I wouldnt describe the spirit as "an energy source" tbh, in this case theres little evidence to compare them. Parasites that suck energy of an unkown type is not =/= sorcerous devouring of the spirit specifically.

Also thats just gas, I have countered the plasma beam, you see my counter is proven, TK or teleport to dodge while so far your evidence is the fact it can melt tin.... and the rest is nonsense, your claiming immunity when your just making up theories and not backing them up for pretty much everything. Using your baseless comparisons and your opinions on them as proof. Also kill him as a ball? wut? Kain cant die of old age, hence why her being thrown about with TK for 100 years or so is an easy tactic, youve yet to show her escaping TK like this.

So Kain wins with his most simple technique until you can prove otherwise, claims dont add up to much dear.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The whole game is set in Nosgoths distant past and Kain spends the majority of it outside, both in the Sarafan stronghold and in the marshes etc.

Fair enough. Still does nothing to help him against a blast of light much more intense than mere sunlight, which is still capable f setting things on fire.


Yes because her launching upwards under her own power is teh same as Kain throwing her around...no...so she cant fly? she just jumps?

Kain can't throw her as far as she herself can jump, and she's adept at landing on her feet or shooting in mid-air. For instance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkx8DKZ5MFs#t=2m40s
And technically it's not flight, no. On the other hand, Samus never has to touch the ground if she doesn't want to. Nothing really prevents her from going into a spin jump as soon as Kain throws her, so she'd be back in control again immediately, and most likely still shooting at Kain.


I dont have to prove any of those things, it never comes up in the spells "cant do" list, if you want to prove Samus' suit can counter magic then go and do so, making up reasons why blood shower wont work randomly without evidence is typical of your argument style. Its enough of a stretch here, forcefields and such work on forces striking them, where no force strikes them other than Samus' blood pouring inside her suit (assuming it cant get to Kain) then it wont help her.

You're claiming that the spell will do something it has never doe before; namely, affect someone through an airtight, vacuum sealed, force field protected suit. That is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. Samus' suit has blocked possession, attacks from ghosts, transdimensional attacks, and doesn't seem bothered by magic blasts. Further, I'm just asking how Kain will manipulate Samus' blood at all when the suit is shown to block psychic powers such as telepathy.


You seem to be just making things up here, youve yet to show me any actual resistance, just things she does such as opening transmissions, shes never actually fought sorcery or mind control from what youve actually shown.

It's hard to show without dialogue, you know? In any case, there is still the matter of Samus being outright unable to receive a psychic message, plus the suit blocking demonic possession, which indicates her mind is protected. If you want Samus' personal resistance, just look at the her reaction to phazon corruption. Which didn't work, you realize.


Its a physical substence that damages brain cells and makes you work for it once its taken you, theres no comparison there to actual mental control but more as the source says corruption, your reaching. And resisting that assault just means you can resist phazon itself.

It's a psysical substance that exhibits physical, interdimential, and outright supernatural traits depending on various situations. Sometimes it's highly radioactive, sometimes it's a power source, sometimes it brings inanimate objects to life.. That's not to mention a phazon Leviathan splitting a planet between two dimension and driving ghosts insane. Those Chozo Ghosts I showed you earlier are normally peaceful, ascended to a higher plane of existence, but alas phazon still drove them insane. Ghosts don't have brain cells, incidentally. The point is you can't generalize phazon except in specific circumstances like Dark Samus actually trying to mind control people. You're arguing against the evidence of Space Pirates who were trying to kill Dark Samus suddenly worshiping her as a goddess, or the other 3 Hunters becoming Dark Samus' commanders, and Rundas in particular being a puppet. Neither of those is corruption, at least not the way you're implying it. Still, resistance to corruption is still mental resistance, and Kain's mind control has no feats to compete with Dark Samus' control.


I looked at the videos and I am seeing nothing different to what this source states, brain damage and control from Phazon itself, Dark Samus is simply another entity working for the Phazon because if I am correct, she is also part of the phazon. Its like physical possession, alike to head crabs in half life only with phazon instead.

Please explain how they are suffering brain damage, and indication you are using to determine this. The Elite Pirates that are stated to suffer degeneration are essentially mindless berserkers. Neither Ghor nor Gandrayda show that trait, seeing as both attempted to trap Samus, and Rundas is explicitly possessed. Dark Samus is an odd case, since we're not sure of her origins. She was originally the Metroid Prime, source of phazon, before stealing one of Samus' suits to inhabit. Regardless, she shows control of phazon rather than the other way around, given that she became the ruler of Phaaze and commanded the Space Pirates. It's not entirely physical, though, unlike a headrab, given that it has affected hosts, and Dark Samus does this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHS1xGy5upE#t=8m47s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpi_uwOX0g#t=4m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vle5Ytlx1zs#t=8m10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaqKPjx719Y#t=15s

Note how a wraith of Dark Samus (no official name) comes out of each hunter as they die. Last video is just Dark Samus possessing a giant cyborg brain.


I wouldnt describe the spirit as "an energy source" tbh, in this case theres little evidence to compare them. Parasites that suck energy of an unkown type is not =/= sorcerous devouring of the spirit specifically.

I wouldn't describe blood as an energy source, either, but vampires (and other creatures) gain energy from it. It's the Metroid's food source, of course they get energy. Mystical life energy with no physical form, though, is fairly spiritual.


Also thats just gas, I have countered the plasma beam, you see my counter is proven, TK or teleport to dodge while so far your evidence is the fact it can melt tin.... and the rest is nonsense, your claiming immunity when your just making up theories and not backing them up for pretty much everything. Using your baseless comparisons and your opinions on them as proof. Also kill him as a ball? wut? Kain cant die of old age, hence why her being thrown about with TK for 100 years or so is an easy tactic, youve yet to show her escaping TK like this.

...you never countered the plasma beam. You asked what the metal it melted was and I gave a temperature range and the point got dropped. There was no counter at any point, unless you plan on Kain to dodge with his slow teleport. As it stands Kain dies plasma turning him to ash. Yes, Samus can kill Kain while in Morph Ball, that is what I typed. The Power Bomb is more than enough to kill Kain while he plays around with with a ball. Samus can fight out of range of Kain's TK, you've never shown him using it on an agile target, and Samus can still shoot or change direction in mid-air.


So Kain wins with his most simple technique until you can prove otherwise, claims dont add up to much dear. [/B]

Which technique? TK isn't really going to work until you prove its range, force, precision, accuracy and speed.

Show me a spin jump, also what youve shown me there is her just jumping backwards. This is all under her own power, she does not know when or how Kain is going to throw her, he coud just counter TK her gun arm every time its trained on him, and since most of her weapons seem to have computerised lock ons and such I cant see them locking onto everything.

I am claiming the magic does what it has always done, drain the blood of a target. Your cliaming this suit can resist or stop that, prove it. I dont have to prove that it cant. it cant recieve telepathic transmissions, youve yet to actually prove it blocks telepathy, mind powers or Tk....

Because Phazon unlike Kains powers work on a physical basis, radiation, energy are all physical mediums in a sense, not supernatural or spiritual like Kains. Not being able to recieve telepathic messaages does not equel telepathic resistance.

No, I just agreed with the Phazon corrupting the brain physcally and damaging brain cells. To the point, like Dark Samus they become almost like phazon.

Tk counters the plasma beam and tin is a soft, weak metal, a metal far below Kains durability and the teleport is a good idea as well, its almost like you belive the plasma beam is really fast. How? when shes being thrown around like a ball? an the power bomb blew up some rocks, thats it....

Originally posted by Burning thought
Show me a spin jump, also what youve shown me there is her just jumping backwards. This is all under her own power, she does not know when or how Kain is going to throw her, he coud just counter TK her gun arm every time its trained on him, and since most of her weapons seem to have computerised lock ons and such I cant see them locking onto everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRHw4YaiLgA#t=2m50s
Getting hit by TK would be no different from getting hit by any attack with knockback, and she can recover from that easily. Prove he can target her gun arm every time, on an agile moving target.


I am claiming the magic does what it has always done, drain the blood of a target. Your cliaming this suit can resist or stop that, prove it. I dont have to prove that it cant. it cant recieve telepathic transmissions, youve yet to actually prove it blocks telepathy, mind powers or Tk....

You're ignoring a vital part, though. How does the spell manipulate the blood? Can you prove it would go through an obstacle? Samus can't receive telepathic trasmissions because the suit blocks them, what's the problem here?


Because Phazon unlike Kains powers work on a physical basis, radiation, energy are all physical mediums in a sense, not supernatural or spiritual like Kains. Not being able to recieve telepathic messaages does not equel telepathic resistance.

I don't think you quite understand how phazon works yet. Short answer being: it doesn't. It's not always physical, since it can affect ghosts and drive them insane. It's not always deadly, since it can control people. It's not always consistent, since it has split a planet between dimensions before. It's an energy source, it can bring rocks to life, it can screw with time and space, it can enhance psychic powers or make a race of demons. It can do anything. The problem here is that you're trying to generalize something that has a different effect every time it's used. Not being able to receive telepathic messages equals not being able to receive telepathic commands. How does Kain control minds?


No, I just agreed with the Phazon corrupting the brain physcally and damaging brain cells. To the point, like Dark Samus they become almost like phazon.

It doesn't always do that, though. None of the mind controlled creatures in Metroid Prime 3 show evidence of brain damage. Are you really going to trust a wiki over the several cutscenes I have shown you that contradict it?


Tk counters the plasma beam and tin is a soft, weak metal, a metal far below Kains durability and the teleport is a good idea as well, its almost like you belive the plasma beam is really fast. How? when shes being thrown around like a ball? an the power bomb blew up some rocks, thats it....

OK, so how does TK counter the plasma beam? You have yet to say exactly how. Kain can't teleport faster than Samus can spam plasma beam shots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh2lfYJ-xQs#t=4m58s
The Power Bomb vaporized the Metroid Queen. All of it.

As long as he can Tk, he can hit her gun, your again claiming the whole "prove X, even though X is irrelevent" thing again, you reach a wal of argumentl but you cant climb over it so you repeat yourself and hope it goes away. And no, getting grabbed and tossed in random directions, or just picked up, strangled etc, bands of force.

prove WHAT can go through an obstacle?, nothing is going through anything....

Thier not telepathic commands though, that would be more alike to suggestion. Also, again no, telepathy is not the same as mind control.

lol, "several cutscenes that contradict it", your not showing me any actual storyline, your showing me a cutscene that doesnt actually say anything, then you label it on what its showing. Show me Samus' transmission or suit, or w/e actually saying their mind controlled.

It stops the charging, single line shooting weapon from hitting what its aimin at by throwing Samus sideways, backwards and flat on her face, or her gun. I woudnt be surprised if Kain could make Samus shoot herself in the foot.

A slow charge of no use, that required her to be inside it vs a creaute that, has what durability? I find it hard to believe it has star core.

Originally posted by Burning thought
As long as he can Tk, he can hit her gun, your again claiming the whole "prove X, even though X is irrelevent" thing again, you reach a wal of argumentl but you cant climb over it so you repeat yourself and hope it goes away. And no, getting grabbed and tossed in random directions, or just picked up, strangled etc, bands of force.

You haven't shown that Kain can TK a moving target yet. Could you, please?


prove WHAT can go through an obstacle?, nothing is going through anything....

He's exerting a force on the blood, right? Now, do you think that force would just appear inside the suit, or would Kain have you direct that force to the blood first? Picture it like Kain's TK force: it's a projectile, meaning that if he wants to move, say, a block, he fires his TK "bolt" which travels through the air before hitting and moving the block. The force has to start somewhere, and if it starts outside the suit it isn't getting in. You'd need to prove it starts inside the suit. Just show me Kain using it through an obstacle that's as resistant as Samus' suit.


Thier not telepathic commands though, that would be more alike to suggestion. Also, again no, telepathy is not the same as mind control.

No, how does Kain use it? From gameplay he appears to just project his consciousness into the target and then controls them like his own body. His consciousness isn't getting through the suit, because it's basically telepathic control.


lol, "several cutscenes that contradict it", your not showing me any actual storyline, your showing me a cutscene that doesnt actually say anything, then you label it on what its showing. Show me Samus' transmission or suit, or w/e actually saying their mind controlled.

Seriously? I'm asking you, at what point in any of those cutscene does anyone appear to have brain damage? It's your claim that phazon can only damage brain cells, what I am showing is characters operating at their full mental capacity. I gave you before and after shots of all of them, showing that Ghor and Gandrayda are still just as smart after corruption as before. If there was brain damage, it would be shown to affect their mental health. It has not. The Space Pirates, too, are still operating just as competently with Dark Samus as without her, save that they worship her now.

You want the scans I already showed you, then?

Our scanners have detected the remains of Dark Samus, who has revived herself within our Phazon storage.
Surely, we are cursed.

The fiendish shrew consumed all of the Phazon, then wiped out a third of the crew in a matter of minutes. Now she moves at will through the halls of Colossus, using her witchery to beguile the minds of the crew. We are unable to call for aid, and only a few of us remain to stand against her. All is lost.

Our struggles have ended. She has shown us the error of our ways. The way is now clear. All previous vows of fealty have been forsworn: we now pledge sole allegiance to our liberator, the great one, Dark Samus. We bear a singular honor, we lucky few, for we are her first disciples. Our burden is a happy one, for we will pave the way to her glorious victory and cosmic rule. Let the light of Phazon lead us!

Today is a day of celebration and woe. Our forces have taken planet Bryyo, leaving the Federation outpost there in cinders. Though we missed their spy base at Elysia, the planet itself was struck with a Phazon Seed. But Norion...Norion was a failure...all thanks to the accursed Hunter, Samus Aran.

All is not lost, however. Our great leader defeated Aran and her mongrel allies in battle. If they aren't dead, they'll soon wish they were. Each of them bears her mark of corruption. Soon they, like we disciples, will bow to her will.

Command has received disturbing reports from Bryyo. Contact with our outpost there has been terminated. A coded bliptrans showing Commander Rundas falling in battle to Samus has arrived. Worst of all, the Bryyonian Seed has been demolished. The Hunter's might is great, and she is as efficient as ever when it comes to disrupting our operations.

Our spies within the Federation tell us she travels to Elysia soon. We plan on having an appropriate welcoming party in place for her when she arrives. Commander Ghor is a very...accommodating host.

http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Pirate_Data


It stops the charging, single line shooting weapon from hitting what its aimin at by throwing Samus sideways, backwards and flat on her face, or her gun. I woudnt be surprised if Kain could make Samus shoot herself in the foot.

Wouldn't damage her, though, and you still have yet to prove that Kain can TK a moving target, or one as fast as Samus. Nor will that stop the huge explosion of the Diffusion or Wide Beams.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEFyM9NvzuM#t=11m46s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh2lfYJ-xQs#t=2m13s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW1UP_ouCQ0#t=1m36s
Nor would that stop any homing missiles.


A slow charge of no use, that required her to be inside it vs a creaute that, has what durability? I find it hard to believe it has star core.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roLtg7pZZvQ#t=3m51
Doesn't need to be star core.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You haven't shown that Kain can TK a moving target yet. Could you, please?

He's exerting a force on the blood, right? Now, do you think that force would just appear inside the suit, or would Kain have you direct that force to the blood first? Picture it like Kain's TK force: it's a projectile, meaning that if he wants to move, say, a block, he fires his TK "bolt" which travels through the air before hitting and moving the block. The force has to start somewhere, and if it starts outside the suit it isn't getting in. You'd need to prove it starts inside the suit. Just show me Kain using it through an obstacle that's as resistant as Samus' suit.

No, how does Kain use it? From gameplay he appears to just project his consciousness into the target and then controls them like his own body. His consciousness isn't getting through the suit, because it's basically telepathic control.

Seriously? I'm asking you, at what point in any of those cutscene does anyone appear to have brain damage? It's your claim that phazon can only damage brain cells, what I am showing is characters operating at their full mental capacity. I gave you before and after shots of all of them, showing that Ghor and Gandrayda are still just as smart after corruption as before. If there was brain damage, it would be shown to affect their mental health. It has not. The Space Pirates, too, are still operating just as competently with Dark Samus as without her, save that they worship her now.

You want the scans I already showed you, then?

http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Pirate_Data

Wouldn't damage her, though, and you still have yet to prove that Kain can TK a moving target, or one as fast as Samus. Nor will that stop the huge explosion of the Diffusion or Wide Beams.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEFyM9NvzuM#t=11m46s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh2lfYJ-xQs#t=2m13s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW1UP_ouCQ0#t=1m36s
Nor would that stop any homing missiles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roLtg7pZZvQ#t=3m51
Doesn't need to be star core.

You didnt counter my post, also Kain can create telekinetic force around targeted objects, why would objects moving make a difference? you need to think out your arguments before you try and shout "prove this irrelevency A, AND THEN! prove irrelevency B!" prove Samus can target Vampires with her weapons.

Magic I would imagine? 😆 Kains TK is not a projectile, he can use it as one, but other than that no, this is probably why your bringing up daft points like above or trying to use Samus' suit as a barrier. Theres no physical or kinetic force hitting Kains suit here...and with TK, theres a kinetic force created by Kain around said objects.

Whut? no...telepathy is speaking to another through your mind, Kains not speaking, hes wrenching control of the mind with his own power.

Well theyve gone from acting of their own accord to seemingly stopping at nothing to kill Samus, thats pretty brain damaged to me.

She has shown us the error of our ways
- Power of suggestion, not mental submission. As for the "light of phazon lead us", this is again what I said before, Phazon, as per the Wiki causes brain damage and then takes control, this is all physical like the Phazon itself though, apprently you cant cause such control without it touching you first.

Missles<TK, and I like how you show me a couple of videos of Samus slowly charging up her gun, if anything it takes a few seconds before she can fire, assuming she can even fire before Kain beheads her and tears her ass out of that suit shes going ot be hitting nothing but air and thats if she can target it. Shes trying to fight someone who wthin about a second or less can be anywhere on the battlefield, as a pool of mist or physical.

Why doesnt it need to be beyond the level of Kains durability to beat him? Also you show me one lump of energy hitting her? so?

Originally posted by Burning thought
You didnt counter my post, also Kain can create telekinetic force around targeted objects, why would objects moving make a difference? you need to think out your arguments before you try and shout "prove this irrelevency A, AND THEN! prove irrelevency B!" prove Samus can target Vampires with her weapons.

You need to prove your claims, though. I'm countering by asking questions. Can you show me Kain doing what you claim, such as creating telekinetic force around an object, and then prove that a moving target makes no difference? How about range? It won't help if Samus can shoot him from too far away for him to do anything, or if she's too fast for him to target with TK. Both of these are entirely relevant to your argument, so it won't work if you can't prove them. Do vampires have any jamming abilities that might prevent targeting? Otherwise, here's Samus targeting ghosts, close enough: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP6o6oXNFEI#t=5m45s


Magic I would imagine? 😆 Kains TK is not a projectile, he can use it as one, but other than that no, this is probably why your bringing up daft points like above or trying to use Samus' suit as a barrier. Theres no physical or kinetic force hitting Kains suit here...and with TK, theres a kinetic force created by Kain around said objects.

So Kain would create kinetic force around the suit, like he does here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlN1irkrNk0#t=5m38s

There's no evidence he could create forces inside other objects, perhaps he needs line of sight. In any case, you'd need to prove that Kain is capable of creating force inside the suit. The above video indicates not.


Whut? no...telepathy is speaking to another through your mind, Kains not speaking, hes wrenching control of the mind with his own power.

Not necessarily. Telepathy is just mental mental contact. Mind reading, mind control, implanting/changing memories, and sending messages can all stem from that initial contact. Point being, if Samus' suit blocks that initial contact, it's quite difficult to do anything else.


Well theyve gone from acting of their own accord to seemingly stopping at nothing to kill Samus, thats pretty brain damaged to me.

Except they haven't, Rundas excluded. They still act of their own accord, just following orders. Ghor, for instance, took over Skytown and hindered Samus' efforts to destroy the Leviathan by cutting off the computer network. This prevented her from building a bomb large enough to take out the Leviathan's energy shield. Similarly, Gandrayda set a trap for Samus by disguising as a Gallactic Federation Trooper, and lured Samus to an area where she had the advantage. That's not brain damage, unless you are suggesting that thinking you can beat Samus is itself evidence of brain damage. No, for an actual example of phazon induced brain damage, look no further than the Elite Pirates or their successors, the Berserker Knights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMukoSeXPhI#t=6m55s


- Power of suggestion, not mental submission. As for the "light of phazon lead us", this is again what I said before, Phazon, as per the Wiki causes brain damage and then takes control, this is all physical like the Phazon itself though, apprently you cant cause such control without it touching you first.

Just not the part with the brain damage every time. Phazon madness is a continuous berserker rage at everything that exists, to the point that victims (read: Elite Pirates) had to be sealed up just to keep them from killing everything they saw. Dark Samus' control is entirely different from that, as you can see. We've seen Rundas being a puppet, that isn't suggestion, either.


Missles<TK, and I like how you show me a couple of videos of Samus slowly charging up her gun, if anything it takes a few seconds before she can fire, assuming she can even fire before Kain beheads her and tears her ass out of that suit shes going ot be hitting nothing but air and thats if she can target it. Shes trying to fight someone who wthin about a second or less can be anywhere on the battlefield, as a pool of mist or physical.

Show me Kain catching/deflecting 5 missiles at once, or anything that could prevent a Diffusion Missiles from freezing him in it's huge blast radius. Samus can instantly charge her gun if she dodges while charging BTW. Kain can't teleport that fast or that far, and his mist won't help against the power bomb's vacuum or a diffusion missile.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGXy-tZ2wwk#t=9m20s (3 here, but max is 5 homing missiles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE0WZLJ2jIY#t=5m58s (diffusion missile)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_sgNUX5DnQ#t=2m (quick beam charge while dodging)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8CN0b-nQdA#t=56s (power bomb vacuum)

And just in case you missed it the last time, here's some beam spam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW1UP_ouCQ0#t=1m36s


Why doesnt it need to be beyond the level of Kains durability to beat him? Also you show me one lump of energy hitting her? so?

Because Power Bomb spreads a high temperature heat wave over a large area and can vaporize humans (and Metroid Queens) instantly. Kain has no heat resistance to something like that. Incidentally, that "lump of energy" was the plasma beam bouncing off of the Metroid Queen.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You need to prove your claims, though. I'm countering by asking questions. Can you show me Kain doing what you claim, such as creating telekinetic force around an object, and then prove that a moving target makes no difference? How about range? It won't help if Samus can shoot him from too far away for him to do anything, or if she's too fast for him to target with TK. Both of these are entirely relevant to your argument, so it won't work if you can't prove them. Do vampires have any jamming abilities that might prevent targeting? Otherwise, here's Samus targeting ghosts, close enough: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP6o6oXNFEI#t=5m45s

So Kain would create kinetic force around the suit, like he does here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlN1irkrNk0#t=5m38s

There's no evidence he could create forces inside other objects, perhaps he needs line of sight. In any case, you'd need to prove that Kain is capable of creating force inside the suit. The above video indicates not.

Not necessarily. Telepathy is just mental mental contact. Mind reading, mind control, implanting/changing memories, and sending messages can all stem from that initial contact. Point being, if Samus' suit blocks that initial contact, it's quite difficult to do anything else.

Except they haven't, Rundas excluded. They still act of their own accord, just following orders. Ghor, for instance, took over Skytown and hindered Samus' efforts to destroy the Leviathan by cutting off the computer network. This prevented her from building a bomb large enough to take out the Leviathan's energy shield. Similarly, Gandrayda set a trap for Samus by disguising as a Gallactic Federation Trooper, and lured Samus to an area where she had the advantage. That's not brain damage, unless you are suggesting that thinking you can beat Samus is itself evidence of brain damage. No, for an actual example of phazon induced brain damage, look no further than the Elite Pirates or their successors, the Berserker Knights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMukoSeXPhI#t=6m55s

Just not the part with the brain damage every time. Phazon madness is a continuous berserker rage at everything that exists, to the point that victims (read: Elite Pirates) had to be sealed up just to keep them from killing everything they saw. Dark Samus' control is entirely different from that, as you can see. We've seen Rundas being a puppet, that isn't suggestion, either.

Show me Kain catching/deflecting 5 missiles at once, or anything that could prevent a Diffusion Missiles from freezing him in it's huge blast radius. Samus can instantly charge her gun if she dodges while charging BTW. Kain can't teleport that fast or that far, and his mist won't help against the power bomb's vacuum or a diffusion missile.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGXy-tZ2wwk#t=9m20s (3 here, but max is 5 homing missiles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE0WZLJ2jIY#t=5m58s (diffusion missile)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_sgNUX5DnQ#t=2m (quick beam charge while dodging)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8CN0b-nQdA#t=56s (power bomb vacuum)

And just in case you missed it the last time, here's some beam spam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW1UP_ouCQ0#t=1m36s

Because Power Bomb spreads a high temperature heat wave over a large area and can vaporize humans (and Metroid Queens) instantly. Kain has no heat resistance to something like that. Incidentally, that "lump of energy" was the plasma beam bouncing off of the Metroid Queen.

So your saying Kain does not have TK now? again, I dont think ill reply to your posts here until you stop asking irrelevencies, your mocking me again like before. ive shown you TK, you claiming random things are going to stop Kain doing something then pretending I have to disprove your belief their a problem.

What are you even saying here? makes no sense, he creates kinetic force on the Sarafan and throws him, he didnt use a projectile and he didnt have to aim, he just gestures roughply to what he wants, hence why its telekinetic force from his mind.

How does he have line of sight to blood which is inside the body? your not making any sense again, your reaching desperatly that Samus wearing a suit apprently gives her some random magic immunity... 🙄

I never said he catches them at once, he only needs to toss one at the others or at Samus or just toss it back into her as it leaves the weapon, their damn slow.

Beam spam? something retconned in newer games it seems, the plasma gun does not do that anymore unless you can show me in the newer games, although ofc, she can only do it in a single direction.

The power bomb as you have shown can barely smash rocks, which>>the queen apprently. Kain being above both by a vast margin means hes pretty safe.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So your saying Kain does not have TK now? again, I dont think ill reply to your posts here until you stop asking irrelevencies, your mocking me again like before. ive shown you TK, you claiming random things are going to stop Kain doing something then pretending I have to disprove your belief their a problem.

No, I'm asking you politely to prove what you are claiming. Nothing more, nothing less. Samus is fast, can you guarantee that Kain's TK can catch her? That is all.


What are you even saying here? makes no sense, he creates kinetic force on the Sarafan and throws him, he didnt use a projectile and he didnt have to aim, he just gestures roughply to what he wants, hence why its telekinetic force from his mind.

But, the force appears around the Sarafan's armor. Not inside it, which is my point. I'm asking you to prove the claim that Kain can TK inside (or on the other side of) an object without TKing the whole thing. It may be easier to find an example of Kain using it on a target he doesn't have line of sight to.


How does he have line of sight to blood which is inside the body? your not making any sense again, your reaching desperatly that Samus wearing a suit apprently gives her some random magic immunity... 🙄

I'm just asking that you prove the claim. If you can, you win. He'd need line of sight to the body, I suppose, or know where the blood is. Still, the suit blocks possession, telepathy, ghost attacks, interdimensional attacks, and magic blasts. Other magic is not reaching, I just want to see if you can prove your claim.


I never said he catches them at once, he only needs to toss one at the others or at Samus or just toss it back into her as it leaves the weapon, their damn slow.

There will be 5 of them. If you want to claim Kain can manipulate more than one, or even just one, while dodging the others, you'd need some extraordinary proof. Like using TK on a moving object, for instance. Even then, you'll have proved he can take out 2 at most while the other three freeze him solid.


Beam spam? something retconned in newer games it seems, the plasma gun does not do that anymore unless you can show me in the newer games, although ofc, she can only do it in a single direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFL240Bb0l0#t=8m12s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhx9nsZK05c#t=1m5s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFdEOAzW1t4#t=52s


The power bomb as you have shown can barely smash rocks, which>>the queen apprently. Kain being above both by a vast margin means hes pretty safe.

Haha. No. Turning the Metroid Queen to vapor is the feat.

Originally posted by The Scenario
No, I'm asking you politely to prove what you are claiming. Nothing more, nothing less. Samus is fast, can you guarantee that Kain's TK can catch her? That is all.

But, the force appears [b]around the Sarafan's armor. Not inside it, which is my point. I'm asking you to prove the claim that Kain can TK inside (or on the other side of) an object without TKing the whole thing. It may be easier to find an example of Kain using it on a target he doesn't have line of sight to.

I'm just asking that you prove the claim. If you can, you win. He'd need line of sight to the body, I suppose, or know where the blood is. Still, the suit blocks possession, telepathy, ghost attacks, interdimensional attacks, and magic blasts. Other magic is not reaching, I just want to see if you can prove your claim.

There will be 5 of them. If you want to claim Kain can manipulate more than one, or even just one, while dodging the others, you'd need some extraordinary proof. Like using TK on a moving object, for instance. Even then, you'll have proved he can take out 2 at most while the other three freeze him solid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFL240Bb0l0#t=8m12s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhx9nsZK05c#t=1m5s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFdEOAzW1t4#t=52s

Haha. No. Turning the Metroid Queen to vapor is the feat. [/B]

Kains TK is not trying to "catch" or "chase" her around though, as I said before theres no projectile like you belive there is.

I never said Kains going to TK inside Samus' armour although, the very fact he Tks blood, which is inside the body proves this point anyway.

It blocks mostly physical powers by the looks of it, the rest is reaching simply due to limitations of waht the suit can transmit.

Prove they freeze anyone solid and that Kain couldnt just flex and smash the ice coating?

Yay youve actually proven something properly, now how is that going to help her?

All you showed me for the metroid queens "durability" is that she can take a shot to the face, a shot from something thats feat is melting...tin.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kains TK is not trying to "catch" or "chase" her around though, as I said before theres no projectile like you belive there is.

Samus can easily recover from being tossed, and I have shown you her shooting in mid air. Attempting to bind her limbs leads to morph ball and power bombs everywhere. What is TK going to do?


I never said Kains going to TK inside Samus' armour although, the very fact he Tks blood, which is inside the body proves this point anyway.

You haven't proven it through any obstacle, though. Or targeting a fast target, for that matter. Or range beyond a meter or two.


It blocks mostly physical powers by the looks of it, the rest is reaching simply due to limitations of waht the suit can transmit.

It can transmit telepathy just fine; it just doesn't contact Samus' mind, instead being converted to text. The stuff it blocks does indicate resistance to Kain's powers.


Prove they freeze anyone solid and that Kain couldnt just flex and smash the ice coating?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKQa7rDY7L8#t=2m20s (It's not water so much as a high temperature acidic jet fuel.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKQa7rDY7L8#t=5m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeD7IhRcleE#t=3m (This one's an achievement; the guy throws a boomerang, you freeze him, boomerang returns and shatters him.)

Kain probably could break the ice, but as I recall he's been damaged by snow before. Should definitely hurt. And as long as he's still for a split second, Samus can follow up with more attacks. The ice beam is a bit better about freezing than the missiles, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMz9noXASiQ#t=10m16s
Fire breathing dragons that are partially submerged in magma, for instance, still get frozen.


Yay youve actually proven something properly, now how is that going to help her?

One hit with the plasma beam would set Kain on fire, The fire does the rest, I imagine. A charged shot is more likely to incinerate him instantly.


All you showed me for the metroid queens "durability" is that she can take a shot to the face, a shot from something thats feat is melting...tin.

Not quite. Plasma beam, if you don't remember, is also know for setting things on fire and turning living things to ash in under a second. The power bomb incinerates the giant Metroid Queen immediately, and Kain has an explicit weakness to heat. This is rather open and shut, I think.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Samus can easily recover from being tossed, and I have shown you her shooting in mid air. Attempting to bind her limbs leads to morph ball and power bombs everywhere. What is TK going to do?

You haven't proven it through any obstacle, though. Or targeting a fast target, for that matter. Or range beyond a meter or two.

It can transmit telepathy just fine; it just doesn't contact Samus' mind, instead being converted to text. The stuff it blocks does indicate resistance to Kain's powers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKQa7rDY7L8#t=2m20s (It's not water so much as a high temperature acidic jet fuel.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKQa7rDY7L8#t=5m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeD7IhRcleE#t=3m (This one's an achievement; the guy throws a boomerang, you freeze him, boomerang returns and shatters him.)

Kain probably could break the ice, but as I recall he's been damaged by snow before. Should definitely hurt. And as long as he's still for a split second, Samus can follow up with more attacks. The ice beam is a bit better about freezing than the missiles, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMz9noXASiQ#t=10m16s
Fire breathing dragons that are partially submerged in magma, for instance, still get frozen.

One hit with the plasma beam would set Kain on fire, The fire does the rest, I imagine. A charged shot is more likely to incinerate him instantly.

Not quite. Plasma beam, if you don't remember, is also know for setting things on fire and turning living things to ash in under a second. The power bomb incinerates the giant Metroid Queen immediately, and Kain has an explicit weakness to heat. This is rather open and shut, I think.

The thing is she wont have time to recover, she will be tossed around like ball without much she can do about it, TK is going to make it nigh impossible for not only ofr her to get close to Kain but to defend herself.

Flesh, muscle and bone is an obstacle, kain never has problems with it and again, your making up illogical counters then pretending I have to prove those things. Its like me saying Kains immune to her abilities because hes a vampire, go and prove shes fought a vampire.

It seems to me this telepathic message goes straight through the suit, the suit did not just absorb it or anything, Samus just seems incapable of hearing a telepathic, has she never been spoken to telepathically?

W/e it is, it still breaks the ice/gets free in about 5 seconds, considering Kain is so strong, ive yet to be convinced its going to be of any use at all.

Kain is immune to snow since early Blood omen 🙄

You base this purely on the fact it can melt Tin? one of the weakest and less dense metals known.

Its not an explicit weakness, more than one of the few things that can actually finish a vampire, Kain himself however has skin that can take frictions from Raziels claws, friction from soneone that has that much strength and pressure>smashing rock power bomb. Also the open and shut part is where Kain TKs Samus forever, therefore winning the battle or kills her with a teleport slash.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The thing is she wont have time to recover, she will be tossed around like ball without much she can do about it, TK is going to make it nigh impossible for not only ofr her to get close to Kain but to defend herself.

Kain has shown he can, at best, toss one person a small distance once. He's never done it quick succession the way you're suggesting, it's more like he throws Samus, then she shoots him. Further, why would Samus ever want to get close to Kain? She's primarily a ranged fighter, despite the fact that she's good in melee, too. In incidentall, what is TK's effective range? It won't help him if Samus is too far away.


Flesh, muscle and bone is an obstacle, kain never has problems with it and again, your making up illogical counters then pretending I have to prove those things. Its like me saying Kains immune to her abilities because hes a vampire, go and prove shes fought a vampire.

Flesh, bone, and muscle do not have the supernatural resistance of Samus' suit, nor have you established that Kain's spells can simply bypass a wall of metal. You're making claims that need to be backed up, because if flesh and bone is all Kain's ever done it through he's in trouble. See, your analogy is failing because I'm not asking you for something so specific. I'm simply asking you to prove the assertion that Kain's spells ignore significant obstacles such as metal, or if it has affected any creature with known resistance to magic or supernatural effects. Flesh and bone are not similar enough to a metal suit with known resistance to supernatural effects for the same ability to ignore both. Samus has fought beings that are mostly soul, as well as animated corpses and zombies, and creatures that have a weakness to light. Metroids are energy vampires in a sense. In that way, Samus has fought beings very similar to vampires, which indicates Kain won't surprise her much.


It seems to me this telepathic message goes straight through the suit, the suit did not just absorb it or anything, Samus just seems incapable of hearing a telepathic, has she never been spoken to telepathically?

What do you mean? In that instance, Samus' suit told her it received a telepathic communication and relayed it to her; that is, in fact, being spoken to telepathically. Unless you're asking if Samus been telepathically contacted without the suit, in which case I can't think of any instances. I feel it bears mentioning that Mother Brain was able to control the Metroids, and most other wildlife on Zebes, through telepathy. Can't say if she ever tried it on Samus, though.


W/e it is, it still breaks the ice/gets free in about 5 seconds, considering Kain is so strong, ive yet to be convinced its going to be of any use at all.

Kain is immune to snow since early Blood omen 🙄

Kain could originally be hurt by snow, and ice is a bit of a step up. I imagine it would be like being dunked in water, in addition to the explosion of the missile/beam. Kain'd be in for a bad day if Samus went for her signature "freeze it solid, then shatter it into a million pieces" strategy. Even if that doesn't work, the secondary effect it to slow the target down and she could follow with more attacks as I said.


You base this purely on the fact it can melt Tin? one of the weakest and less dense metals known.

That's just one feat, I don't why you choose to focus on it when there are others available, many of which are in my second post of this thread. Such as setting Space Pirates on fire and burning them to ash, or melting the other metal that was shown. So no, I am not basing it "purely" off of the Tinbots. I also based it the Nosgothic Vampire's known weakness to fire. Though I don't see what tin's density has to do with heat resistance, because that's what we're talking about. Kain has no such resistance, and in fact should have a weakness to the plasma beam, and as such the "burning to ash" ability of the plasma beam will be of great use.


Its not an explicit weakness, more than one of the few things that can actually finish a vampire, Kain himself however has skin that can take frictions from Raziels claws, friction from soneone that has that much strength and pressure>smashing rock power bomb. Also the open and shut part is where Kain TKs Samus forever, therefore winning the battle or kills her with a teleport slash.

Did you ever say how much friction there was, or what the temperature was? Or ever show any evidence of Raziel producing heat? I recall the first time you mentioned friction, but no actual evidence to support it. Again, smashing rocks is not the Power Bomb's only feat, why are ignoring the others I showed you? It vaporized the Metroid Queen in one shot, for instance, and is stated by Adam to do the same to humans over a large area. Kain's TK can't prevent Samus from laying a Power Bomb, and one of them would immediately force Kain to get away from Samus or face death, therefore giving her a chance to shoot him from out of his effective range. Samus is too fast for a teleport slash, and that would kill her in any case.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Kain has shown he can, at best, toss one person a small distance once. He's never done it quick succession the way you're suggesting, it's more like he throws Samus, then she shoots him. Further, why would Samus ever want to get close to Kain? She's primarily a ranged fighter, despite the fact that she's good in melee, too. In incidentall, what is TK's effective range? It won't help him if Samus is too far away.

Flesh, bone, and muscle do not have the supernatural resistance of Samus' suit, nor have you established that Kain's spells can simply bypass a wall of metal. You're making claims that need to be backed up, because if flesh and bone is all Kain's ever done it through he's in trouble. See, your analogy is failing because I'm not asking you for something so specific. I'm simply asking you to prove the assertion that Kain's spells ignore significant obstacles such as metal, or if it has affected any creature with known resistance to magic or supernatural effects. Flesh and bone are not similar enough to a metal suit with known resistance to supernatural effects for the same ability to ignore both. Samus has fought beings that are mostly soul, as well as animated corpses and zombies, and creatures that have a weakness to light. Metroids are energy vampires in a sense. In that way, Samus has fought beings very similar to vampires, which indicates Kain won't surprise her much.

What do you mean? In that instance, Samus' suit told her it received a telepathic communication and relayed it to her; that is, in fact, being spoken to telepathically. Unless you're asking if Samus been telepathically contacted without the suit, in which case I can't think of any instances. I feel it bears mentioning that Mother Brain was able to control the Metroids, and most other wildlife on Zebes, through telepathy. Can't say if she ever tried it on Samus, though.

Kain could originally be hurt by snow, and ice is a bit of a step up. I imagine it would be like being dunked in water, in addition to the explosion of the missile/beam. Kain'd be in for a bad day if Samus went for her signature "freeze it solid, then shatter it into a million pieces" strategy. Even if that doesn't work, the secondary effect it to slow the target down and she could follow with more attacks as I said.

That's just one feat, I don't why you choose to focus on it when there are others available, many of which are in my second post of this thread. Such as setting Space Pirates on fire and burning them to ash, or melting the other metal that was shown. So no, I am not basing it "purely" off of the Tinbots. I also based it the Nosgothic Vampire's known weakness to fire. Though I don't see what tin's density has to do with heat resistance, because that's what we're talking about. Kain has no such resistance, and in fact should have a weakness to the plasma beam, and as such the "burning to ash" ability of the plasma beam will be of great use.

Did you ever say how much friction there was, or what the temperature was? Or ever show any evidence of Raziel producing heat? I recall the first time you mentioned friction, but no actual evidence to support it. Again, smashing rocks is not the Power Bomb's only feat, why are ignoring the others I showed you? It vaporized the Metroid Queen in one shot, for instance, and is stated by Adam to do the same to humans over a large area. Kain's TK can't prevent Samus from laying a Power Bomb, and one of them would immediately force Kain to get away from Samus or face death, therefore giving her a chance to shoot him from out of his effective range. Samus is too fast for a teleport slash, and that would kill her in any case.

And theres only one person here. His TK requires flicks of his wrist, I dont know how fast you can flick your wrist but I am pretty sure you can do it more than once. As for range, Tk does not cover distance, its not a projectile as I said before. I would say logically? as far as Kain can see.

😆 no but its got the same magic or tk resistance, zero. Yes you are, your making up random reasons why something shouldnt work and then pretending I have to prove it apprently without any logical basis.

Exactly, it "recieved" a communication, it seems Samus may be incapable of even hearing a message with or without the suit, and whats more, it seems the suit automatically recieved it as if the person sending knew the suit would. Yes well, if mother brain or w/e its called actually tried and failed, you would have a feat of mental resistance.

ONly your evidence is it freezing weak ass creatures for a few seconds, how would it slow someone down so fast? Kain could be running or w/e and just smash through the ice instantly as she attempts to form it.

What? burning men is even worse, are space pirates humans because I assume they can take more than a single shot? Also fire is no more a weakness as you put it than it is to a human, the difference is Kains particles have equel durability to pressures that would rip these things into tiny piecies, heat only works by burning/melting if it can dissasemble the particles that make up said body. Kains far more durable than any of these instances.

I need evidence to support a physical fundemental of movement/force now? 🙄 And yes it can unless she lays it a good few meters away where Kains got her Tked, if anything kain could probably just TK toss the bomb as wel lif need be. "too fast"? youve not shown her any speed feats, nor precog to know where kain is going to teleport....

Originally posted by Burning thought
And theres only one person here. His TK requires flicks of his wrist, I dont know how fast you can flick your wrist but I am pretty sure you can do it more than once. As for range, Tk does not cover distance, its not a projectile as I said before. I would say logically? as far as Kain can see.

See, now you're assuming that using a psychic power and flicking your wrist take the same amount of effort. And then logically, Kain would need a feat for as far as he can see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlN1irkrNk0#t=5m39s
Hmmm. Kain grabs the guy, holds him there for 2 seconds, then makes a gesture and the guy goes flying. Samus has shot him dead by this point, unless there's something faster or continuous.


😆 no but its got the same magic or tk resistance, zero. Yes you are, your making up random reasons why something shouldnt work and then pretending I have to prove it apprently without any logical basis.

It has magic resistance, though no one in Metroid has TK except maybe Dark Samus and possibly Mellissa Bergman. I'm not making up reasons, I'm asking if Kain's ever bypassed something with supernatural resistance, because Samus' suit has resisted supernatural effects. If he hasn't, it's highly unlikely that blood shower will bypass the suit, especially because you have proven it bypasses obstacles between Kain and the target.


Exactly, it "recieved" a communication, it seems Samus may be incapable of even hearing a message with or without the suit, and whats more, it seems the suit automatically recieved it as if the person sending knew the suit would. Yes well, if mother brain or w/e its called actually tried and failed, you would have a feat of mental resistance.

I wonder, though...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ANSwqRiqsU
Forgot about this. It certainly looks like Samus received a "thank you" vision from the the Alimbics after defeating Gorea. Combined with the earlier transcribing of a telepathic message and scanning of telepathic pockets, it seems Samus can choose whether or not a psychic effect gets through.


ONly your evidence is it freezing weak ass creatures for a few seconds, how would it slow someone down so fast? Kain could be running or w/e and just smash through the ice instantly as she attempts to form it.

Your only evidence for blood shower is "weak ass creatures," so don't be doing that. Kain isn't that fast in the first place, and Samus has frozen creatures literally made of fire with the ice beam, and other creatures that were submerged in magma while frozen; that is some effective ice. Dunno why the ice missiles do that weird effect, though, because the beams don't.


What? burning men is even worse, are space pirates humans because I assume they can take more than a single shot? Also fire is no more a weakness as you put it than it is to a human, the difference is Kains particles have equel durability to pressures that would rip these things into tiny piecies, heat only works by burning/melting if it can dissasemble the particles that make up said body. Kains far more durable than any of these instances.

Burning men? What? And no, Space Pirates are in fact more insectoid and tend to wear armor, not that it helps from being turned to ash, which is not, in fact, a worse feat. The amount of energy is takes to completely vaporize a living being full of water is huge. When creatures are hit by the plasma beam, they disintegrate, or did you not watch the videos I linked? Nosgothic vampires are shown to have a weakness to fire; it kills them much more easily than normal damage, especially because they catch fire so easily. Please give a reason that pressure resistance would equal heat resistance, though, because so far Kain has no resistance.


I need evidence to support a physical fundemental of movement/force now? 🙄 And yes it can unless she lays it a good few meters away where Kains got her Tked, if anything kain could probably just TK toss the bomb as wel lif need be. "too fast"? youve not shown her any speed feats, nor precog to know where kain is going to teleport....

Yes, if you're going to claim that its temperature is higher than plasma, which you have not. Nor have you shown Raziel produce any heat with his claws. Give a specific temperature or at least prove it's hotter than plasma. Otherwise, you're basing that off of nothing. Kain still can't prevent Samus from laying the Power Bomb, and if he has to divert attention to it Samus has the advantage unless you show him TKing two objects at once.

Ah, yes, speed. Precog...maybe?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FoA05QEnEo#t=1m13s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Xp_gRLB8M#t=1m10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHS1xGy5upE#t=34s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK7h0xvTb3U#t=10s (possible Precog?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Yh1AzVhkw&#t=4m51s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glFPKDb9OyY#t=10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_sgNUX5DnQ#t=1m59s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exPn1E9uiy4

http://metroid.retropixel.net/metroid4/manual/m4_16.jpg
http://metroid.retropixel.net/metroidzm/manual/mzm_14.jpg (These being to establish reaction time)

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_013.png (Establishing distance)
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_016.png (Establishing situation)
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_017.png (Establishing speed)
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_018.png (Further establishment -Note that she wasn't seen )

Originally posted by The Scenario
See, now you're assuming that using a psychic power and flicking your wrist take the same amount of effort. And then logically, Kain would need a feat for as far as he can see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlN1irkrNk0#t=5m39s
Hmmm. Kain grabs the guy, holds him there for 2 seconds, then makes a gesture and the guy goes flying. Samus has shot him dead by this point, unless there's something faster or continuous.

It has magic resistance, though no one in Metroid has TK except maybe Dark Samus and possibly Mellissa Bergman. I'm not making up reasons, I'm asking if Kain's ever bypassed something with supernatural resistance, because Samus' suit has resisted supernatural effects. If he hasn't, it's highly unlikely that blood shower will bypass the suit, especially because you have proven it bypasses obstacles between Kain and the target.

I wonder, though...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ANSwqRiqsU
Forgot about this. It certainly looks like Samus received a "thank you" vision from the the Alimbics after defeating Gorea. Combined with the earlier transcribing of a telepathic message and scanning of telepathic pockets, it seems Samus can choose whether or not a psychic effect gets through.

Your only evidence for blood shower is "weak ass creatures," so don't be doing that. Kain isn't that fast in the first place, and Samus has frozen creatures literally made of fire with the ice beam, and other creatures that were submerged in magma while frozen; that is some effective ice. Dunno why the ice missiles do that weird effect, though, because the beams don't.

Burning men? What? And no, Space Pirates are in fact more insectoid and tend to wear armor, not that it helps from being turned to ash, which is not, in fact, a worse feat. The amount of energy is takes to completely vaporize a living being full of water is huge. When creatures are hit by the plasma beam, they disintegrate, or did you not watch the videos I linked? Nosgothic vampires are shown to have a weakness to fire; it kills them much more easily than normal damage, especially because they catch fire so easily. Please give a reason that pressure resistance would equal heat resistance, though, because so far Kain has no resistance.

Yes, if you're going to claim that its temperature is higher than plasma, which you have not. Nor have you shown Raziel produce any heat with his claws. Give a specific temperature or at least prove it's hotter than plasma. Otherwise, you're basing that off of nothing. Kain still can't prevent Samus from laying the Power Bomb, and if he has to divert attention to it Samus has the advantage unless you show him TKing two objects at once.

Ah, yes, speed. Precog...maybe?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FoA05QEnEo#t=1m13s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Xp_gRLB8M#t=1m10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHS1xGy5upE#t=34s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK7h0xvTb3U#t=10s (possible Precog?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Yh1AzVhkw&#t=4m51s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glFPKDb9OyY#t=10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_sgNUX5DnQ#t=1m59s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exPn1E9uiy4

http://metroid.retropixel.net/metroid4/manual/m4_16.jpg
http://metroid.retropixel.net/metroidzm/manual/mzm_14.jpg (These being to establish reaction time)

http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_013.png (Establishing distance)
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_016.png (Establishing situation)
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_017.png (Establishing speed)
http://metroid-database.com/manga/official_vol_1_en/ch_0003/scaled/sc_metroid_v01_ch003_018.png (Further establishment -Note that she wasn't seen )

Thats all Kain does, and he shows no more visual effort than that. You do realise holding Mobius and force rushing his neck was Kains choice? he does not have to hold someone specifcally. Ive yet to see Samus fireing a weapon while being physically thrown consistently by someone.

This is not a "supernaturual" effect, or more specifcally, this is not possession. Your making things up. Blood shower targets blood, blood pours to Kain, in this case at best, the blood will shower the inside of Samus' suit.

It seems to me that said people sent the message to Samus' suit for her to transcript and there is no real protection or automation. This proves that Samus can be affected by powers of the mind and what youve told me before is irrelevent, see your sneaky and dishonest like this, pretending no mental force has ever gotten past Samus suit as if its because the suit is protecting her from it.

I like how you make a completly irrelevent comparison, blood shower only needs to affect "weak ass" creatures until Samus has more resistance than them to blood control, since shes never faced anything alike to it, this is the same. On the other hand, ice can be broken and its true shes been successful on weak creatures, a stronger Kain cant be frozen if hes too strong for it.

Because pressure breaks up the molecules as well, the difference is, it takes a huge amount to do this to Kain, an unkown amount and tin is far weaker than what Kain has faced. The Earths cores pressure is so high it holds metals molecules together and stops it from melting in temps far higher than that required to melt tin. Also, you keep bringing up "heat resistance", heat is simply expended energy, left over from certain forces, its not an special power, Kains not a leaf type pokemon who gets dealt double damage by fire type you know...

Kinetic shackles says hi, he can have her floating in the air faceing away from him while he plays with the bomb for lulz.

Vid 1- She just runs sideways from a spread of rounds, many of which seem poorly aimed, not sure the first one she even reacted to, it seemed to miss entirely.

Infact looking at most of these, their things anyone could do, diving to one side? Kain could do it quicker using just his mist dodge.

Also that "precog" one is lulzy, I like how shes rolling at about the speed of a slowly tapped football.

The only impressive feat that Kain could not also repeat is being able to dash in a specific direction or a limited time at supersonic, ths is not going to help her tbh though. Theres also the fact that, Kain can have her in free fall with TK, he will know where she is since she cant fly while he can teleport anywhere around her and she could never know where hes going to strike.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats all Kain does, and he shows no more visual effort than that. You do realise holding Mobius and force rushing his neck was Kains choice? he does not have to hold someone specifcally. Ive yet to see Samus fireing a weapon while being physically thrown consistently by someone.

You haven't shown Kain throwing anyone consistently or repeatedly, either. Any time he does there are significant pauses between any TK action, even between the "pick up" and "throw" movements. Also range limits, need to do that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV_x7LfZXDk#t=5m45s


This is not a "supernaturual" effect, or more specifcally, this is not possession. Your making things up. Blood shower targets blood, blood pours to Kain, in this case at best, the blood will shower the inside of Samus' suit.

It can't target the blood if it doesn't have access to the blood. In this case, a metal suit with a forcefield and resistance to supernatural or magical effects is between the spell and the blood. It's a spell, that is the definition of supernatural effect.


It seems to me that said people sent the message to Samus' suit for her to transcript and there is no real protection or automation. This proves that Samus can be affected by powers of the mind and what youve told me before is irrelevent, see your sneaky and dishonest like this, pretending no mental force has ever gotten past Samus suit as if its because the suit is protecting her from it.

The only mental force that got in was one Samus was willing to receive, and even some of those didn't get in. It doesn't seem like anyone sent the message to Samus, it was just a telepathic sinal, as well as the other telepathic data pockets. All it proves is that Samus can receive telepathy on her own, and the suit is able to block it and instead transcribe it should she choose. I'm not being sneaky; I legit forgot about that part of the ending since I haven't played Hunters in a while, and only remembered it going through the game again.


I like how you make a completly irrelevent comparison, blood shower only needs to affect "weak ass" creatures until Samus has more resistance than them to blood control, since shes never faced anything alike to it, this is the same. On the other hand, ice can be broken and its true shes been successful on weak creatures, a stronger Kain cant be frozen if hes too strong for it.

The comparison is completely relevant; Kain has never used it anything even slightly powerful, nor has it ever bypassed an obstacle, let alone a supernaturally resistant one. You should prove it can before making such claims. On the other hand, Samus has frozen powerful creatures (like the SA-X) in addition to one in magma (Dragons, Goyagma) and flaming ones (Nova, Goyagma) that should be resistant to ice. Kain's physical strength has nothing to do with getting frozen, really. He might break some after getting frozen, but he can't stop himself from getting frozen in the first place.


Because pressure breaks up the molecules as well, the difference is, it takes a huge amount to do this to Kain, an unkown amount and tin is far weaker than what Kain has faced. The Earths cores pressure is so high it holds metals molecules together and stops it from melting in temps far higher than that required to melt tin. Also, you keep bringing up "heat resistance", heat is simply expended energy, left over from certain forces, its not an special power, Kains not a leaf type pokemon who gets dealt double damage by fire type you know...

Kain has never faced fire that can incinerate a living creature in an instant, and tin's physical durability has nothing to do with its heat resistance until you prove a relationship between the two. Resistance to claws is not resistance to fire, and the earth's core has nothing to do with this. Metal being kept solid under pressure is entirely irrelevant to Kain unless you're arguing that Kain is constant under this pressure, and even then it still doesn't counter the fact that the metal is still hot. Nosgothic vampires have a weakness to fire, this is a fact. There are no less than two cutscenes that show fire's lethal effect on vampires, vampires that are immune to Raziel's claws, remember? It's gotta be a quadruple weakness.


Kinetic shackles says hi, he can have her floating in the air faceing away from him while he plays with the bomb for lulz.

1. Show Kinetic shackles.
2. Show Kain using other TK while kinetic shackles is still in effect.
3. Samus in morph ball has no limbs to shackle.


Vid 1- She just runs sideways from a spread of rounds, many of which seem poorly aimed, not sure the first one she even reacted to, it seemed to miss entirely.

Dodging gunfire, what's the problem?


Infact looking at most of these, their things anyone could do, diving to one side? Kain could do it quicker using just his mist dodge.

Show the mist dodge. Note that most of these are in slow motion to allow them to be seen.


Also that "precog" one is lulzy, I like how shes rolling at about the speed of a slowly tapped football.

Hey, you asked for precog, and Samus dodged before the shot was fired.


The only impressive feat that Kain could not also repeat is being able to dash in a specific direction or a limited time at supersonic, ths is not going to help her tbh though. Theres also the fact that, Kain can have her in free fall with TK, he will know where she is since she cant fly while he can teleport anywhere around her and she could never know where hes going to strike.

I don't know, I think Kain would have a lot of trouble replicating the one where Samus covers a hundred feet the instant five guns are fired in order to block the shots, moving so quickly her partner did not see her move. The supersonic speed is to establish that Samus' reaction is also greatly above Kain's. Now, where do you get the idea that Samus can't fly? I'm pretty sure we went over this with the Space Jump. As soon as he's behind her he eats a Screw Attack, which is a lot worse than it sounds for Kain.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You haven't shown Kain throwing anyone consistently or repeatedly, either. Any time he does there are significant pauses between any TK action, even between the "pick up" and "throw" movements. Also range limits, need to do that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV_x7LfZXDk#t=5m45s

It can't target the blood if it doesn't have access to the blood. In this case, a metal suit with a forcefield and resistance to supernatural or magical effects is between the spell and the blood. It's a spell, that is the definition of supernatural effect.

The only mental force that got in was one Samus was willing to receive, and even some of those didn't get in. It doesn't seem like anyone sent the message to Samus, it was just a telepathic sinal, as well as the other telepathic data pockets. All it proves is that Samus can receive telepathy on her own, and the suit is able to block it and instead transcribe it should she choose. I'm not being sneaky; I legit forgot about that part of the ending since I haven't played Hunters in a while, and only remembered it going through the game again.

The comparison is completely relevant; Kain has never used it anything even slightly powerful, nor has it ever bypassed an obstacle, let alone a supernaturally resistant one. You should prove it can before making such claims. On the other hand, Samus has frozen powerful creatures (like the SA-X) in addition to one in magma (Dragons, Goyagma) and flaming ones (Nova, Goyagma) that should be resistant to ice. Kain's physical strength has nothing to do with getting frozen, really. He might break some after getting frozen, but he can't stop himself from getting frozen in the first place.

Kain has never faced fire that can incinerate a living creature in an instant, and tin's physical durability has nothing to do with its heat resistance until you prove a relationship between the two. Resistance to claws is not resistance to fire, and the earth's core has nothing to do with this. Metal being kept solid under pressure is entirely irrelevant to Kain unless you're arguing that Kain is constant under this pressure, and even then it still doesn't counter the fact that the metal is still hot. Nosgothic vampires have a weakness to fire, this is a fact. There are no less than two cutscenes that show fire's lethal effect on vampires, vampires that are immune to Raziel's claws, remember? It's gotta be a quadruple weakness.

1. Show Kinetic shackles.
2. Show Kain using other TK while kinetic shackles is still in effect.
3. Samus in morph ball has no limbs to shackle.

Dodging gunfire, what's the problem?

Show the mist dodge. Note that most of these are in slow motion to allow them to be seen.

Hey, you asked for precog, and Samus dodged before the shot was fired.

I don't know, I think Kain would have a lot of trouble replicating the one where Samus covers a hundred feet the instant five guns are fired in order to block the shots, moving so quickly her partner did not see her move. The supersonic speed is to establish that Samus' reaction is also greatly above Kain's. Now, where do you get the idea that Samus can't fly? I'm pretty sure we went over this with the Space Jump. As soon as he's behind her he eats a Screw Attack, which is a lot worse than it sounds for Kain.

Ive shown him toss people around with TK, thats all he needs unless you can make a good case for him having to stop doing it to Samus. Also I lold, that video shows a really slow beam that does not distot Samus' view at all, its like being slowly picked up and dropped again.

Proof? thats a claim, prove it, again, making up stories. Thats the defintion of a magic effect tbh. Next time I face a vampire, ill make sure I dress up tightly in my coat, his magic will never affect me then!

The suit has the ability to recieve telepathy and Samus has no resistance at all, she has shown no ability to stop it. Thanks for that.

Kain just has ot move based on your evidence to stop getting frozen, not that she could hit him with that weapon.

Theres two cutscenes that show vampires burn just like people, thats it really. Tbh, youve yet to show me anything from her weapons melting things instantly, youve shown me gameplay of her damage taking down certain enemies and it did nothing to the Queen.

Again silly buggering, youve seen kinetic shackles although, I cant find the video again atm however, Kain can TK several things at once as shown when he drinks multiple peoples blood at the same time.

Anyone can do that is the problem, its not really a feat.

Try any one of the vids in the LoK respect thread, and again, youve seen it. Throughout this vid, theres also a nice moment of him Tking blood from two people at once;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgaFEwjebfE&feature=related#t=2m15s

Its almost like she guessed he was going to do it OR she heard the same noises I did, a deep humming, I wonder if that was the gun or the background sounds though.

Being able to move yourself at supersonic speed does not mean you can react at supersonic speed. If anything, Samus' reations based on your vides are peak human tops. 😆 yes because she automatically knows where Kain is and a jump is equel to flight, silly me....Samus will know where Kain is no more than you would in the same situation, he could appear anywhere around her and she would be helpless to move and considering she cant hurt Kain, certainly at such range it will be useless.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ive shown him toss people around with TK, thats all he needs unless you can make a good case for him having to stop doing it to Samus. Also I lold, that video shows a really slow beam that does not distot Samus' view at all, its like being slowly picked up and dropped again.

No you haven't, I'm the only one posting videos in this thread. Heck, I even posted a video showing Kain taking his sweet time between lifting and throwing a guy. Why would Samus' vision be distorted by either Kain or Gorea? She got picked up, swung around, and slammed on the ground and did not stop shooting, and hitting, the entire time. That's enough to prove that not only can Samus shoot while being lifted, she's accurate enough to hit him.


Proof? thats a claim, prove it, again, making up stories. Thats the defintion of a magic effect tbh. Next time I face a vampire, ill make sure I dress up tightly in my coat, his magic will never affect me then!

There are two pages of proof in this thread. I posted the failed possessions, the ghost attacks, the inter-dimensional attacks, hell, the magic golem hand, too. Until your coat can match that, you're probably in trouble, but I'd suggest getting a more solid obstacle like metal between you and the vampire, since their powers aren't proven to work through things like that.


The suit has the ability to recieve telepathy and Samus has no resistance at all, she has shown no ability to stop it. Thanks for that.

You're welcome. Now the suit just transcribes Kain's polite request for dominance and Samus hits the "no" button. Or she uses the resistance that Dark Samus proved her to have to fight Kain off. Or he just fails altogether like when the Ing tried to possess her.


Kain just has ot move based on your evidence to stop getting frozen, not that she could hit him with that weapon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMz9noXASiQ#t=10m16s
What could have possibly given you the idea that moving stops the freezing process? I don't actually see any way Samus could miss.


Theres two cutscenes that show vampires burn just like people, thats it really. Tbh, youve yet to show me anything from her weapons melting things instantly, youve shown me gameplay of her damage taking down certain enemies and it did nothing to the Queen.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Plasma Beam, for reference. Prime version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5H0RA0rGug#t=45s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5H0RA0rGug#t=6m31s

The above quote is my second post in this thread. I took the liberty of removing the links with "certain enemies" to instead focus on Samus melting piles of metal larger than she is. I suppose that means Samus will just burn Kain like a person.


Again silly buggering, youve seen kinetic shackles although, I cant find the video again atm however, Kain can TK several things at once as shown when he drinks multiple peoples blood at the same time.

Blood powers =/= TK, and you there's been no kinetic shackles in this thread. Gonna need more proof.


Anyone can do that is the problem, its not really a feat.

Gonna need evidence for "anyone can [dodge bullets]" because that's what the feat is.


Try any one of the vids in the LoK respect thread, and again, youve seen it. Throughout this vid, theres also a nice moment of him Tking blood from two people at once;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgaFEwjebfE&feature=related#t=2m15s

Nothing better than Samus, who again is deliberately slowed down in those scenes. Kain draining helpless opponents, still nothing for TK, though.


Its almost like she guessed he was going to do it OR she heard the same noises I did, a deep humming, I wonder if that was the gun or the background sounds though.

More likely the elevator or the music since GF guns haven't been shown to need to warm up. Look, I'm not actually saying Samus has precognition, that was just the first thing I thought of when you said it. It's still a nice reaction to events Samus can't personally see.


Being able to move yourself at supersonic speed does not mean you can react at supersonic speed. If anything, Samus' reations based on your vides are peak human tops. 😆 yes because she automatically knows where Kain is and a jump is equel to flight, silly me....Samus will know where Kain is no more than you would in the same situation, he could appear anywhere around her and she would be helpless to move and considering she cant hurt Kain, certainly at such range it will be useless.

Samus can stop on a dime, charge, hit an incline with a shoulder charge and immediately resume running during this. Multiple times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP2FvmBvTNE
That takes not only good reactions, but skill.

Samus has this nifty radar thing that detects enemies near her, really useful for finding them, in addition to the fact that she's fought teleporters before and is smart enough to get out of the way when the enemy disappears. Who said she can't hurt Kain? Really, most of her beams and the Screw Attack could seriously mess him up.