Battle of the Equals.

Originally posted by Enzeru
1. Superman considers Captain Marvel and himself as equals. Give Captain Marvel the magic and he has an slight advantage.

That's a strange way of thinking. Superman has considered Wonder woman his equal too, called J'onn and hal has more power than entire justice league and said that Guy gardner warrior hits harder than doomsday. His "toughest" foe are at least half dozen. It's in his
nature to encourage his peers but he has surpassed all of them. This is the only fight that has produced any result and superman beat marvel to a pulp in it
.

2. You didn't do crap, because I only wanted to show that Superman can be drained, and if someone like the Sentry comes along, Superman would be in trouble, yet that's hard to prove, because the only instance where Sentry could have bad absorbed the enemies energy / radiation to defeat him was in the full of PIS arc: WW Hulk.

Yes I did. You come with a hyperbolic statement and some ambiguous sentry holding a cosmic cube and said sentry can drain superman. When I proved you wrong you threw a hissy fit

Well of course Superman has now the awesome telepathy resistance, and the draining resistance and the molecule manipulation resistance and every other resistance you could actually think off to stay the TOP DOG BOY in the DC Universe, yet he can still be drained by his enemies and affected on other ways and Sentry has the variety and the powerlevel to do so.

I never said superman can't be drained, I said sentry doesn't have feats to prove he can drain superman. Superman has used electricity to recharge himself, used geo thermal energy to recharge himself, absorbed an entire sun capable of destroying half a galaxy, used his stored light in his cells to fuel a machine that rewrote multiverse, forcibly absorbed solar energy from Rampage. The dying body of superman had enough energy to astonish the classic eradicator who has turned entire sun red under his own power

Sentry doesn't have feats to compare how much you like to blame PIS.

3. You're basically taking away the abilities of people to grant Superman the victory. What kind of a fanboy are you? That's not how we judge fights. We take a look at the characters - at the entire spectrum of their powers and what they could be able to do in a battle do defeat the enemies and not brawl it out in a stupid slugfest.

You are taking away superman's power to resist energy drain or resist magic.

- Captain Marvel, Black Adam, Thor and Beta Ray Bill using their magic to take out Superman, who is a very powerful opponent, yet would struggle withi that much magic... That is what could happen.

This is not superman vs everyone else. Yes they COULD but how much they are going to co-operate is the question.

- Thor, Beta Ray Bill, Sinestro and Kyle using drain to weaken Superman and take him out? That is what could happen too, because Thor and Beta Ray Bill would have taken an enemy out, without actually harming him, while Kyle would be concerned about Superman and for Sinestro it would be the fastest way to end the fight.

Now you are using out of character Thor and Beta ray bill. When was the last time Thor or bill used energy absorption against a brick. They both have too much proud to use it. It's as likely as superman using vibration and remove their heart and mind you he has done something like that against cyborg superman. Means not likely. Lanterns haven't done virtually NO energy manipulation since Johns started writing them. It's not going to happen anytime soon.

- Superman using his superspeed to vibrate his hands into the enemies bodies and kill him in the process...? Yeah, that is totally in character for Superman and that is totally what would happen. [Watch it, sarcasm!] Besides that, if Superman considers Captain Marvel and himself as equals, he will not have such a high speed advantage.

Heh, and thor or bill using energy absorption on a brick is totally in character for them, right. Black adam was tiring at mach 500 in a race with Jay garrick

And wow what a logic, if superman considers marvel his peer in strength he must be equal in his speed too.

If they all fight at the maximum capacity of their powers, yet stay in character (which is how we actually see and judge fights), then Superman and Ultraman would have some real problems in this one, especially Superman because of the amount of magic. No one is going to one-shot him in this battle without using some fancy moves, but even Superman can be harmed and if someone with the strenght of Thor hits you and releases additional lightnings or Mjolnir magic, then that hurts, even Superman and now matter how much of a fanboy you are, you're not going to change this.

So anyone who disagrees with you is a fanboy right. It's not like superman one of the fastest character in comics can dodge a hammer strike or dodge a lightning when he sees lightning in slow motion long ago in Byrne days

Superman / Ultraman are the losers of this battle, face it.

I have no qualms in agreeing in admitting superman/ultraman can lose this match but not like you are describing it.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Originally posted by abhilegend
I never said superman can't be drained, I said sentry doesn't have feats to prove he can drain superman.

You don't understand what you're doing right? Let me make it clear for you.

You're basically giving Superman the victory, because Thor, Beta Ray Bill and the Lanterns are not pulling of stuns in comics anymore which they're able to do, because it lies in their powerset and you consider it as ... what, PIS if they would be using it in this fight?

Comic book characters brawl it out nowdays. That's not a way to judge fan-fictive fights. Would you only brawl, if you had the powerset of Silver Surfer, who could do so much more then just to brawl? No, I guess you would not, yet that's what Silver Surfer was doing in his most recent match against Thor. It does not mean that the characters don't have these powers and judging by their powerlevel, they can often do it on a large scale.

But you're basically taking away Thor and the Lanterns their draining abilities, just because they don't do it twice per month, but you still dig out 10-20-30 years old scans of Superman, where he manages to do something what could give him much trouble nowdays.

Yeah nice. That is fanboy'ism at it's finest mate.
And why don't you post the scan which came after Jay Garrick outrunned Black Adam? In the very next scan, when Garrick was still at his highest velocity, Black Adam was standing basically behind him.

Yeah, Black Adam is not one of the faster speedster out there, but it will be enough for this match.

Superman / Ultraman are the weakest team in this entire battle and it does not matter if you like Superman as much as I like Sentry, it's still a fact.

Originally posted by Enzeru
You don't understand what you're doing right? Let me make it clear for you.

You're basically giving Superman the victory, because Thor, Beta Ray Bill and the Lanterns are not pulling of stuns in comics anymore which they're able to do, because it lies in their powerset and you consider it as ... what, PIS if they would be using it in this fight?

Comic book characters brawl it out nowdays. That's not a way to judge fan-fictive fights. Would you only brawl, if you had the powerset of Silver Surfer, who could do so much more then just to brawl? No, I guess you would not, yet that's what Silver Surfer was doing in his most recent match against Thor. It does not mean that the characters don't have these powers and judging by their powerlevel, they can often do it on a large scale.

But you're basically taking away Thor and the Lanterns their draining abilities, just because they don't do it twice per month, but you still dig out 10-20-30 years old scans of Superman, where he manages to do something what could give him much trouble nowdays.

Yeah nice. That is fanboy'ism at it's finest mate.
And why don't you post the scan which came after Jay Garrick outrunned Black Adam? In the very next scan, when Garrick was still at his highest velocity, Black Adam was standing basically behind him.

Yeah, Black Adam is not one of the faster speedster out there, but it will be enough for this match.

Superman / Ultraman are the weakest team in this entire battle and it does not matter if you like Superman as much as I like Sentry, it's still a fact.

Originally posted by abhilegend
We are not talking of powersets here. On one hand you are taking away superman's vibrational attack because it's not in his character and then you flip it upside down when it comes to thor and lanterns.

Listen mate, this is the very first time for me to do something like that, but I didn't bother to read your post any further, since the quoted part is enough to realize that it's pointless to debate with you.

Read this carefully, if you want the reason:

It is not in Superman's character to use his superspeed to vibrate through the chest of his enemies and destroy their heart or something like that.

But it IS in character of Thor, Beta Ray Bill, Kyle and even Sinestro (if he wants to do it the fast way) if they use their drain, to depower Superman and take him out of the battle, without harming him any further.

They HAVE the ability to do so, because it's a part of their powerset. They didn't use it often, but that's the way how comic book fights are written. Just because they writers are taking the easy way out, it does not instanly mean, that we have to look at every fight from a brawling point of view, because that would be stupid and boring.
So yeah, they have these abilities and they can use it to take him out. On the contrary you're posting scans of Superman where he resisted drains and so on, yet he was also drained on other instances / or didn't have to deal with such powerful enemies, who could pull it off, if they wanted, since they're nearly his equals.
It would be in character for them to do so.

Everything else you're writing is clear fanboy'ism, and it's just weird. Sorry for that, but it's how I see it.

Originally posted by Enzeru
Listen mate, this is the very first time for me to do something like that, but I didn't bother to read your post any further, since the quoted part is enough to realize that it's pointless to debate with you.

[b]Read this carefully, if you want the reason:

It is not in Superman's character to use his superspeed to vibrate through the chest of his enemies and destroy their heart or something like that.

But it IS in character of Thor, Beta Ray Bill, Kyle and even Sinestro (if he wants to do it the fast way) if they use their drain, to depower Superman and take him out of the battle, without harming him any further.

They HAVE the ability to do so, because it's a part of their powerset. They didn't use it often, but that's the way how comic book fights are written. Just because they writers are taking the easy way out, it does not instanly mean, that we have to look at every fight from a brawling point of view, because that would be stupid and boring.
So yeah, they have these abilities and they can use it to take him out. On the contrary you're posting scans of Superman where he resisted drains and so on, yet he was also drained on other instances / or didn't have to deal with such powerful enemies, who could pull it off, if they wanted, since they're nearly his equals.
It would be in character for them to do so.

Everything else you're writing is clear fanboy'ism, and it's just weird. Sorry for that, but it's how I see it. [/B]

Originally posted by abhilegend
We are not talking of powersets here. On one hand you are taking away superman's vibrational attack because it's not in his character and then you flip it upside down when it comes to thor and lanterns. What are you talking about, those scans are from byrne days one of the weakest versions of superman.
Jay has admitted on panel that superman is faster than him, they were running neck by neck when they raced after wally at just shy of lightspeed and kal had outrun jay if he didn't stole his speed. Adam was tiring at mach 500, superman started his race with wally at OVER 2000 mps or mach 9350 and both were accelarating all the time without slowing down. So when you can't win an argument just state your opinion and be done with it, nice debating. Prove your opinions with facts not with could/would/should happen. Another fun fact, no standard GL has a single victory over superman in entire post crisis history.

Jay and Superman never raced each other at light speed. It never happened and you have to remember, during that era, Jay was depowered. He was struggling to even surpass 2000 MPs.

Originally posted by carver9
Jay and Superman never raced each other at light speed. It never happened and you have to remember, during that era, Jay was depowered. He was struggling to even surpass 2000 MPs.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ah legendary carver and his legendary quest to prove superman's top speed is 2000 mps, how novel. Where did you got that fact that Jay was struggling to reach 2000 mps? During virtue and vice Jay, diana, Kal and wally all blitzed surtur at near lightspeed. In that race Jay stole kal's speed at near lightspeed to prevent him from time traveling alongside wally to 64th century. Do you think flashes time travel at 2000 mps? This is what exactly happened in JSA but adam exhausted himself before lightspeed and Jay stole his speed in order to travel in time to beat king of tears. Your quest of undermining superman and his feats are well known, aren't you the same guy who said KC superman could only go at 1200 mps based on a wizard interview or you know more about superman than anyone else on this board?

This has nothing to so with Superman vs light speed. I want you to prove to me that Jay and Superman were going light speed.

Jay was stealing Adams speed...that was the reason his legs were giving out. It had nothing to do with 500 mach being his max speed. That race had circumstances and even then, Jay couldn't reach light speed. He used Adams speed coupled with his in order to achieve the speed he achieved. Jay isn't a light speedster buddy.

Originally posted by carver9
This has nothing to so with Superman vs light speed. I want you to prove to me that Jay and Superman were going light speed.

Jay was stealing Adams speed...that was the reason his legs were giving out. It had nothing to do with 500 mach being his max speed. That race had circumstances and even then, Jay couldn't reach light speed. He used Adams speed coupled with his in order to achieve the speed he achieved. Jay isn't a light speedster buddy.

Originally posted by abhilegend
When did I say that superman and jay were going lightspeed? They were just shy of it and Jay stole kal's speed and crossed lightspeed barrier to time travel to 64th century. I have already proved you wrong about jay and adam, speed steal is instanteneous like Jay said "he stumbled AND I STOLE HIS SPEED" and INSTANTENOUSLY jay crossed lightspeed. The same happened in Jay/kal race, the moment jay stole his speed they both started time travelling. I knew you would ignore virtue and vice example where wally explained how speed steal works. We all know Jay is not a lightspeed speedster, but superman IS, much to your chagrin, isn't it carver?

So are you going to show me the scan of them being shy of light speed or what? I want to see that being stated. That race happened about 10 plus years ago. Around the time Superman admitted he can't go light speed. That's the reason I am asking you for proof.

Originally posted by carver9
So are you going to show me the scan of them being shy of light speed or what? I want to see that being stated. That race happened about 10 plus years ago. Around the time Superman admitted he can't go light speed. That's the reason I am asking you for proof.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What are you talking about? That race happened in DC first by Geoff johns in 2002, superman was already a lightspeed speedster as far as President Lex when he cleaved saturn's moon in half or before in Last god of krypton in 1999 when he took cythonna to the sun from earth in a matter of moments. The incident you are talking about zeta beam is 10+ year old which can't be used now. Even in old days he was faster than a lightning bolt, superman was never slow as much you wish for it. I ask you again at what speeds flashes starts to time travel? It's up to you to prove that they were going at 2000 mps as you claim and started time travel around that speed.

I never said that Supes couldn't fly through space at light speed. If Ironman, Despero, Vulcan, and Classic Rogue can fly at light speeds via space, why can't Superman. Are you going to post the scans or what?

What are we even arguing about?

Thor/Bill or Billy/Teth win.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
What are we even arguing about?

Thor/Bill or Billy/Teth win.

Both. I'm wondering why he thinks Supes is so far above Captain Marvel and Adam speed wise. During Batman/Superman...didn't Captain Marvel blitz him?

Originally posted by carver9
Both. I'm wondering why he thinks Supes is so far above Captain Marvel and Adam speed wise. During Batman/Superman...didn't Captain Marvel blitz him?

Not really a blitz, at least the kind of blitz people usually describe on KMC. Further more, Superman was effected by K-nite from that asteroid, the fight was somewhat staged, etc.

Still, Superman's speed has never been shown or implied directly to be too much for Captain Marvel. He can counter vibrate (even though he rarely does that), but sheer movement speed and reflexes are a wash unless you bring in endgame mode Superman.

Originally posted by carver9
I never said that Supes couldn't fly through space at light speed. If Ironman, Despero, Vulcan, and Classic Rogue can fly at light speeds via space, why can't Superman. Are you going to post the scans or what?

Originally posted by carver9
Both. I'm wondering why he thinks Supes is so far above Captain Marvel and Adam speed wise. During Batman/Superman...didn't Captain Marvel blitz him?

Originally posted by carver9
So are you going to show me the scan of them being shy of light speed or what? I want to see that being stated. That race happened about 10 plus years ago. Around the time Superman admitted he can't go light speed. That's the reason I am asking you for proof.

What instance of him saying he can't go lightspeed are you referring to?

Not that it matters, as he has the feats, but I'm curious.

^ He's talking about the zeta beam incident where superman said to flash he was not as fast as light.