Gamora vs. Sabretooth

Originally posted by jinzin
Oh christ... Okay so another "comic feats only matter when I say argument" huh? Right then...

No one has argued that Gamora isn't highly skilled and no one said she wasn't fast... the argument is that she isn't skilled enough or fast enough to outstrike Creed in a fight to any degree that would actually allow her to win h2h. If you disagree then you need to start bringing evidence to the table to support yourself here.

Bottem line? Wolverine is not fast or skilled enough to outstrike Creed without taking SIGNIFICANT damage in their fights, IF he outstrikes him at all.... AND.... he usually loses... y'know, WITH a superfast healing factor that would allow him to heal from damage lightyears faster than Gamora's capabilities allow for.

First, you need to prove that Gamora's more skilled than Wolverie- And you can't. Trust me, been down this road already.
Then you would need to prove that she's faster in combat than Wolverine- And you SERIOUSLY can't.... again, done this dance already.
Then you could BEGIN to make the argument that she's faster than Creed for instance, though not very well...
THEN you would need to prove that those attributes were on such a superior level that they allow for the rest of the argument that you're attempting to make. This.... this will be next to impossible to do given her feats and appearances; ignoring the hype.

As for hogwash..... Wolverine and Creed are characters who have attributes at a SUPERHUMAN level that ALLOW them to take those shots full force.. you can pretend that isn't what's being presented on panel, but when you have a character like Savage Hulk threatening to "smash little man" is kind of hard to ignore the implication that Hulk's hitting Wolverine for real. Either of these characters not dying has nothing to do with "jobbing" it has to do with the powers they actually have... If you want to ignore that too, then you're not arguing against the characters that exist... of course given that you think Gamora's too fast and too skilled to be hit flush by Creed in a h2h fight it's already quite apparent that you're not using exsisting characters for the purposes of this thread.

Finally... several things: The Ronan fight is one of the best displays Gamora's ever put up against anyone of note that wasn't circumstantial with the exception of Ronan fighting like an idiot.

Pressure points have shown numerous times to be inneffective against Wolverine when his healing factor's working at peak conditions and Sabretooth's is better, AND someone of Gamora's strength class FAILED to use pressure points on Classic Creed back in the day.... They'll work better now? Nuh uh.

And Last, unlike Gamora, Sabretooth actually has feats against a Wolverine calibur opponent where he was moving so well, and so fast that we wasn't taking flush shots in a fight... WHILE playing around.... So the door swings both ways there if that's your arugment.

You are insane to believe that Gamora won't outstrike Creed. What has Creed shown to suggest such nonsense?

Also, stop using comic fights as sole evidence. Logan and many other character's job and are caught not fighting to the best of their abilities.
Logan showing great skill in one comic doesn't mean he is showing the same in another.

This is a forum fight with characters performing at their best. That means Gamora is faster, stronger, and more skilled. His HF is better than hers but she hits more times and with more damage (including pressure point strikes). With the Godslayer she might can take a healthy majority.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are insane to believe that Gamora won't outstrike Creed. What has Creed shown to suggest such nonsense?

Tooled Iron Fist without trying? A better question is what has Gamora done to suggest she can out-strike Creed? Hint: The answer is nothing. Shhh

Originally posted by h1a8
Also, stop using comic fights as sole evidence. Logan and many other character's job and are caught not fighting to the best of their abilities.
Logan showing great skill in one comic doesn't mean he is showing the same in another.

lol

What else are you using for evidence? Handbook bios? Cartoons? Movies? Memories of the action figure fights you played out with earlier this morning before your mom made you breakfast? Comicbook fights and feats are the only thing that matters. Creed's feats put him above the abilities of someone like Gamora to beat. She is a less skilled Wolverine with a healing factor about a million times slower, and class 70 strength hardly begins to balance the equation. She can't beat Wolverine. She can't beat Creed.

And what does Ronan jobbing to Gamora have to do with Wolverine or Creed?

Originally posted by h1a8
This is a forum fight with characters performing at their best. That means Gamora is faster, stronger, and more skilled. His HF is better than hers but she hits more times and with more damage (including pressure point strikes). With the Godslayer she might can take a healthy majority.

Except Creed is preforming at his best too... which means Creed is faster and comparably skilled. Gamora will will tag Creed less than he tags her, her attacks will do significantly less damage than his, and any damage she inflicts on him will heal in seconds, where as any damage he does to her will remain for the duration of the fight. Gamora can't use pressure points in combat, she never has and she has explicitly stated that she can't. There is no wiggle room or middle ground there, Gamora lacks the martial proficiency to execute pressure point attacks during the natural flow of combat.

Again one panel there is nothing to suggest that Godslayer will afford her any advantage what so ever. An impressive name doesn't change the fact that the only thing it has done is break.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are insane to believe that Gamora won't outstrike Creed. What has Creed shown to suggest such nonsense?

In ORDER TO BEAT CREED, Gamora has to be able to get inside Sabretooth's greater range land strikes, and evade counterstrikes long enough and consistent enough to put someone down who casually walks through hails of gunfire, class 100 punches, optic blasts, psionic blasts, explosions, etc etc etc... She has to do CATASTROPHIC damage to a character who has a faster healing factor than Logan AND an adamantium skeleton in this thread.... She has to fight flawlessly or something near it.

Again, if Logan, a character who can match or surpass EVERY. SINGLE. FEAT. of skill or speed she has, can't do it to Creed in fights that Creed doesn't even take seriously even WITH a healing factor that allows him to sustain the damage that Sabretooth dishes out far longer better than Gamora could.... Then what chance does Gamora have? It's not hard to figure out.

Don't want to use Logan as a pillar of evidence? That's fine, because characters with extra sensory or enhanced sensory perception like Daredevil and Spiderman couldn't evade Sabretooth either. Both regarded his speed. So did Iron Fist... And this was all before he was significantly upgraded several times. Character's noted for enhanced speed and agility like Beast, Dark Beast, Enhanced Black Cat, Wildchild, Sinister's Supermen, Deadpool and Rogue have also been at a loss compared to Sabretooth's speed and reaction time.

Even on the low end of the totem poll AOA Sabretooth a weaker incarnation of the 616 version absolutely punked a user of the Starbrand, a legit speedster.

Do you understand this? She's not fast or skilled ENOUGH to outstrike Sabretooth ENOUGH.... WITHOUT GETTING HIT ENOUGH.... to win.

Originally posted by h1a8
Also, stop using comic fights as sole evidence.

Originally posted by h1a8
Logan and many other character's job and are caught not fighting to the best of their abilities.

Originally posted by h1a8
Logan showing great skill in one comic doesn't mean he is showing the same in another.

There's no logical reason to ignore his skillset.. you just don't like it. Alternatively what has Gamora done in comics to show her skill level is better than Wolverine? Besides admitting she couldn't T off on Thing, getting whacked by Ronin, or getting stabbed by Wolverine?

Originally posted by h1a8
This is a forum fight with characters performing at their best.

Originally posted by h1a8
That means Gamora is faster,

Originally posted by h1a8
stronger,

Originally posted by h1a8
and more skilled.

Originally posted by h1a8
His HF is better than hers

Originally posted by h1a8
but she hits more times and with more damage (including pressure point strikes).

Sabretooth is likely faster than her, has a reach advantage, has a durability vs. offensive capability advantage (Being that his claws are doing MUCH more damage to her if he connects than her blows will do to him) and again we've already seen pressure points DON'T WORK ON SABRETOOTH by someone in the 60+ Ton strength range. And we know they don't work on Wolverine AT ALL when he's performing to the best of his abilities with a healing factor that's slower than Sabretooth's. Enhanced sensory and the durability of his bones are also to Sabretooth's advantage. She has strength, and possibily a skill advantage, but strength's kinda lost on Sabretooth ESPECIALLY an adamantiumized one, and her skill advantage isn't much according to feats or she flat out doesn't have one according to stats, take your pick.

The bottem line is that Sabretooth can take more than she can in this fight... much more. SOOOOO MUCH MORE. Even if we just gave her a skill and speed advantage she needs to fight near flawlessly to keep from losing a fight here. We're talking about a guy that walks around IMMEDIATELY after having every bone in his body broken to dust on impact from space, or healed immediately from being burned to a near skeleton well enough to blitz and one shot another superhuman. We're talking about a guy who has a faster healing factor than "I eat Hulk fists for breakfast" Wolverine, and has a natural durability multiple times that of his own 20 ton strength range, who now has an adamantium skeleton to boot.

She doesn't win this fight, and so far the only reason I see for some parties ahem, giving it to her is because she's Gamora "The most dangerous great green hype in the universe". Color me impressed.😐

Originally posted by h1a8
With the Godslayer she might can take a healthy majority.

Creed and Logan "casually" walking through class 100 hits is PIS.

Jinzen, you're as bad as Srank.

Originally posted by cdtm
Creed and Logan "casually" walking through class 100 hits is PIS.

Jinzen, you're as bad as Srank.

Originally posted by jinzin
Explain to me what is Plot Induced about a character's POWERSET? It's not as if Logan hasn't been doing it since the day he was introduced in Marvel. You're saying that something that consistently happens... to a character that has a powerset specifically designed to take this type of punishment..... in a company that USES this notable advantage to sell mini-series' and animated features SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE of this advantage... is PIS?.... Hmmmm Okay, well when you can effectively argue why I should ignore something like this, when Marvel is literally banking on it, and to such a degree..... maybe I'll care about what you have to say here.

PIS isn't a powerset.

I'll make it simple for you: If Logan and Wolverine can tank (tank being the operable word here, as you said "casually walk through class 100 hits"😉, any examples of less hurting them are PIS.

And there are many, many, many, many examples of far less hurting them. Deadpool, Mr. X, Spider Man, Iron Fist, Shang Chai, Captain America, and Thing are all below class 100, and all have had given Logan a good fight.

Take off the fanboy goggles. Your boy Sabertooth normally hangs with streets (Daredevil gave him a good fight, for one), metas, and mid range characters. He's not a class 100 killer, any more than Deathstroke is a team beater because of Identity Crisis, or a Flash killer despite his history in Titans.

Originally posted by cdtm
PIS isn't a powerset.

Originally posted by cdtm
I'll make it simple for you: If Logan and Wolverine can tank (tank being the operable word here, as you said "casually walk through class 100 hits"😉, any examples of less hurting them are PIS.

So no, less hurting them isn't PIS, it's consistent with their levels of durability. They can be cut, or shot, or stabbed. They will be hurt... Guess what, they can ALSO tank those things because of their power.

Their ability to tank damage isn't based on what can and can't hurt them, it's based on what they can bounce back from INSPITE of what hurt them.

Originally posted by cdtm
And there are many, many, many, many examples of far less hurting them. Deadpool, Mr. X, Spider Man, Iron Fist, Shang Chai, Captain America, and Thing are all below class 100, and all have had given Logan a good fight.

In any case those are terrible examples as most/all of them are related to the CONTEXT of the story they occur in. For instance, Shang Chi never even damaged Logan... 😕
There is where another issue lies. Most examples of Wolverine being unable to TANK less(... which is what we should really be talking about here, not what gives him trouble in a fight because that's another matter entirely....) is the specific result of what's happened in the storyline. Other instances that are the result of the story I.E. Wolverine being knocked out by a single bullet to the head, ARE typical representations of PIS... Dunno why you have a problem with that but...

Originally posted by cdtm
Take off the fanboy goggles. Your boy Sabertooth normally hangs with streets (Daredevil gave him a good fight, for one),

Again, just because DD could give him a good fight, does that mean that Creed can't tank class 100 shots? No... That's utterly ridiculous logic. A beat up/tortured Captain America gave Wrecker a "good fight", guess Wrecker can't take class 100 shots.... 😕 The two issues are completely unrelated. 😐

Originally posted by cdtm
metas, and mid range characters. He's not a class 100 killer,

Originally posted by cdtm
any more than Deathstroke is a team beater because of Identity Crisis, or a Flash killer despite his history in Titans.

Scuffle with Nova Prime

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/Nova%20CQB%20protocols/1323844372299.jpg
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/Nova%20CQB%20protocols/1323844383218.jpg
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/Nova%20CQB%20protocols/1323844393849.jpg
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/Nova%20CQB%20protocols/1323844413831.jpg

Scuffle with Terrax

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/Nova%20CQB%20protocols/1323844516199.jpg
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/dmills31/Nova%20CQB%20protocols/1323844615672.jpg

Apologies gents if the scans aren't of great quality. Including the Ronan fight you've got 3 fairly recent scraps with three herald level beings. All of which involved, well "context". Nova at a fraction of his normal power, Terrax possessed by bugs like Moondragon was. So take it for what its worth.

Originally posted by cdtm
Creed and Logan "casually" walking through class 100 hits is PIS.

Jinzen, you're as bad as Srank.

Originally posted by cdtm
PIS isn't a powerset.

I'll make it simple for you: If Logan and Wolverine can tank (tank being the operable word here, as you said "casually walk through class 100 hits"😉, any examples of less hurting them are PIS.

And there are many, many, many, many examples of far less hurting them. Deadpool, Mr. X, Spider Man, Iron Fist, Shang Chai, Captain America, and Thing are all below class 100, and all have had given Logan a good fight.

Take off the fanboy goggles. Your boy Sabertooth normally hangs with streets (Daredevil gave him a good fight, for one), metas, and mid range characters. He's not a class 100 killer, any more than Deathstroke is a team beater because of Identity Crisis, or a Flash killer despite his history in Titans.

Christ you're stupid. Like seriously, really ****ing stupid. We are talking bottom %1 percentile stupid.

Since apparently it needs to be explained to you again her we go: Wolverine tanks damage from class 100 bricks because of his healing factor. A healing factor != durability. Wolverine has more or less baseline human level durability. Anything that can hurt a normal person can hurt Wolverine... he just heals from it. Hurting Wolverine isn't a feat. I can hurt Wolverine. You seem to believe that hurting Wolverine is somehow evidence that he can't tank a class 100. It's not. His durability and healing are too completely different things. He isn't formidable because he is invulnerable to damage, he heals from it.... that's his power. For every example of Wolverine being koed by less than a class 100 blow there are dozens of examples of him shrugging them off.

Sabretooth didn't even have a healing factor yet when he fought DD and he toyed with Matt the entire fight and could have finished it when ever he wanted to.

FYI most of the characters have never beaten Wolverine, the ones that have did so with the aid of plot devices and Thing has class 100 strength. Why do you bother posting here? You clearly don't read comics.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Tooled Iron Fist without trying? A better question is what has Gamora done to suggest she can out-strike Creed? Hint: The answer is nothing. Shhh

lol

What else are you using for evidence? Handbook bios? Cartoons? Movies? Memories of the action figure fights you played out with earlier this morning before your mom made you breakfast? Comicbook fights and feats are the [b]only thing that matters. Creed's feats put him above the abilities of someone like Gamora to beat. She is a less skilled Wolverine with a healing factor about a million times slower, and class 70 strength hardly begins to balance the equation. She can't beat Wolverine. She can't beat Creed.

And what does Ronan jobbing to Gamora have to do with Wolverine or Creed?

Except Creed is preforming at his best too... which means Creed is faster and comparably skilled. Gamora will will tag Creed less than he tags her, her attacks will do significantly less damage than his, and any damage she inflicts on him will heal in seconds, where as any damage he does to her will remain for the duration of the fight. Gamora can't use pressure points in combat, she never has and she has explicitly stated that she can't. There is no wiggle room or middle ground there, Gamora lacks the martial proficiency to execute pressure point attacks during the natural flow of combat.

Again one panel there is nothing to suggest that Godslayer will afford her any advantage what so ever. An impressive name doesn't change the fact that the only thing it has done is break. [/B]

Gamora has shown a much higher skill level than Creed. She simply fights better and knows more stuff. Ask anyone here. You and Jinzin are the only ones that disagree.

She is faster by feats. What has Creed shown to say that she isn't faster than him?

And I'm referring to instances where characters were performing at their best ability (not movies or handbooks). Gamora at her best is simply a better fighter than Creed at his best. Godslayer adds to the damage output, it would tax Creeds HF in such a way that he would be easier to ko.

Creed can win some but so can Gamora. Lopsided in any way is asinine.

Originally posted by h1a8
Gamora has shown a much higher skill level than Creed. She simply fights better and knows more stuff. Ask anyone here. You and Jinzin are the only ones that disagree.

She is faster by feats. What has Creed shown to say that she isn't faster than him?

And I'm referring to instances where characters were performing at their best ability (not movies or handbooks). Gamora at her best is simply a better fighter than Creed at his best. Godslayer adds to the damage output, it would tax Creeds HF in such a way that he would be easier to ko.

Creed can win some but so can Gamora. Lopsided in any way is asinine.

Gamora simply hasn't "shown a much higher level skill level than Creed." The only character of any measurable skill Gamora has ever fought is Wolverine... and Wolverine beat her. Creed has fought much more skilled characters than Gamora has and he has fared much better than she could hope to. Jinzin and I base our opinions on feats, not empty rhetoric and hearsay.

What has Creed shown that Gamora isn't faster than him? How about speed feats? Creed has some, Gamora quite literally doesn't have a single speed feat. She jumped at Ronan once... and... there was a woosh sound... oooooooooooooo 🙄

Godslayer does not add any damage output. It is a most a slightly more durable dagger. The only thing Godslayer has ever done is break.

Why do you bother responding to my posts if you aren't going to address any of the points I raise? Gamora has no impressive speed feats. Cite a single one if you feel other wise. The only skilled fighter Gamora has ever fought is Wolverine. She didn't win. Gamora can't use pressure points in an actual fight. She's said so her self. Godslayer doesn't give her any sort of benefit. The only thing it has done on panel is break. Her healing factor isn't fast enough to compensate for the type of damage Creed dishes out. She was koed by a single gut check by Wolverine. What has she done that even remotely alludes to the possibility that she can beat Sabretooth?

Originally posted by jinzin
No but an unbreakable skeleton and liquid metal healing factor is.

Srank already explained this, to you I think even.... No one said a class 100 punch doesn't hurt Wolverine or Creed (Well Creed's crazy so he might be a different story), what's being said is that they can tank the hits... as in take them and keep on coming. Which they can, and they do.

So no, less hurting them isn't PIS, it's consistent with their levels of durability. They can be cut, or shot, or stabbed. They will be hurt... Guess what, they can ALSO tank those things because of their power.

Their ability to tank damage isn't based on what can and can't hurt them, it's based on what they can bounce back from INSPITE of what hurt them.

No one said they can't... But most of those are terrible examples...
I'm beginning to get the impression that you're having a crisis seperating "pain" from what one can "endure".
Wolverine and Sabretooth can endure class 100 punches and keep coming, that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
If Wolverine gets punched by someone like Cap it's still going to hurt upon impact, the simple fact is that the effect doesn't last much longer than that one instant.

In any case those are terrible examples as most/all of them are related to the CONTEXT of the story they occur in. For instance, Shang Chi never even damaged Logan... 😕
There is where another issue lies. Most examples of Wolverine being unable to TANK less(... which is what we should really be talking about here, not what gives him trouble in a fight because that's another matter entirely....) is the specific result of what's happened in the storyline. Other instances that are the result of the story I.E. Wolverine being knocked out by a single bullet to the head, ARE typical representations of PIS... Dunno why you have a problem with that but...

So...... I guess you like showing off your ignorance then? Mmmmk
Daredevil gave Sabretooth a "good fight" when Sabretooth was a as of yet underdeveloped character with not much in the way of super powers. Even then, all DD essentially did was hold Creed back until he got too beat up to fight. That specific example actually holds more water for my case as DD comments that his hits are doing nothing but upsetting Creed, being thrown through brick walls did nothing to slow him down either... this was all before Creed was written as a strict superhuman with a healing factor, and well before his upgrades.

Again, just because DD could give him a good fight, does that mean that Creed can't tank class 100 shots? No... That's utterly ridiculous logic. A beat up/tortured Captain America gave Wrecker a "good fight", guess Wrecker can't take class 100 shots.... 😕 The two issues are completely unrelated. 😐
You should tell that to Wendigo and Holocaust.

Again bringing up unrelated issues. Deathstroke has't been pulling IC shit out of his ass since his incarnation. He doesn't have a history of whomping on teams with examples that approach the hundreds. The analogy to Flash is utterly absurd. In order for DS to do what he does to Flash, Flash's powers have to be ignored. In order for Creed or Wolverine to tank a Class 100 hit, NO powers need to be ignored. They're two completely different things.

I don't think you understand the definition of "tank".

You can't have it both ways. If Captain America, Spider Man, or Shang Chi's blows can hurt Wolverine, a punch from Hulk should knock him out. The fact it occasionally doesn't is PIS, pure and simple. (Given that examples of < class 100 hurting him outweigh tanking class 100, by a large margin.)

A class 100 punch is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> street or meta level punch, to the point where anyone who can survive the former shouldn't be phased by the latter, at all.

Originally posted by h1a8
Gamora at her best is simply a better fighter than Creed at his best.

Godslayer adds to the damage output, it would tax Creeds HF in such a way that he would be easier to ko.

Originally posted by cdtm
I don't think you understand the definition of "tank".

You can't have it both ways. If Captain America, Spider Man, or Shang Chi's blows can hurt Wolverine, a punch from Hulk should knock him out. The fact it occasionally doesn't is PIS, pure and simple. (Given that examples of < class 100 hurting him outweigh tanking class 100, by a large margin.)

A class 100 punch is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> street or meta level punch, to the point where anyone who can survive the former shouldn't be phased by the latter, at all.

You clearly don't comprehend the difference between a healing factor and durability, no matter how many times it's been explained to you.

Originally posted by cdtm
I don't think you understand the definition of "tank".

You can't have it both ways. If Captain America, Spider Man, or Shang Chi's blows can hurt Wolverine, a punch from Hulk should knock him out. The fact it occasionally doesn't is PIS, pure and simple. (Given that examples of < class 100 hurting him outweigh tanking class 100, by a large margin.)

A class 100 punch is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> street or meta level punch, to the point where anyone who can survive the former shouldn't be phased by the latter, at all.

The ability to tank something is analogous with the ability to endure it.

Wolverine can endure punches from Spidey and Cap, and heal from them immediately.
Wolverine can endure punches from Hulk and heal from them immediately. Both can hurt him. This isn't complicated. Stop being dense.
Wolverine is "OCCASSIONALLY" knocked out by class 100 shots, it isn't the other way around, he's stood up to FAR more class 100 shots than he has gone down to, and most of the time he's fallen to a class 100 shot has some context for why it happened in the first place. Wolverine has beng hit with heavy hitting punches hundreds and hundreds of times in his career. He's fought the Hulk more than he's fought Cap, Shang Chi, and Spiderman COMBINED, and I KNOW Srank already told you this sooooo...... Srank is correct, you're being an idiot.

Wolverine isn't surviving class 100 punches because they don't hurt, he's surviving them because he feals from the damage they do..... Being able to heal damage doesn't mean he doesn't feel pain.