Orion vs Shaman X-Man

so..... went through the last bunch of martian manhunter v2 books. pretty good reads for the most part. not awesome, but i enjoyed them. i had been unaware that it was the martians who actually turned darkseid onto the anti-life equation. interesting little fact right there.....

for all the talk about how that series showed the new gods are 'immune' to telepathic attack though.....? ❌

or, rather, not decisively. the denizens of apokalips had thoughts that were 'opaque' to the martians. what that meant in the context of the series was that the martians could not casually read their minds, something they never really pressed because it is against their ethics. of course, that 'opaqueness' was a plot device to allow the new gods to trick the martians. ironically, later, when the new gods were forced to leave, the martians forced them by merging their thoughts and using a telepathic command to chase darkseid's army away from the planet! so the new gods were certainly NOT immune, though their thoughts could not be read passively.

all that means, imho, is that (1) a focused tp assault could very well be used against a new god (2) a POWERFUL enough attack (like the merged assault used to drive the army away) CERTAINLY can work.

low level tp's probably couldn't do anything to a new god. an uber tp (like, say.... maxima, or nate 🙂 )? yeah, i'd say that the new gods are not beyond being f'd up by someone with sufficient power. thanks to prepman for convincing me to finally take an active part in solving this little issue. new god immunity has been a question on the forum for a very long time. all the proof falls inbetween issues 32-36 in martian manhunter v2. i'm just too lazy to upload scans and frankly did the checking for my own peace of mind anyway. 😂

Those were the lowlies New Gods. Someone like Orion has high resistance through the MB.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Those were the lowlies New Gods. Someone like Orion has high resistance through the MB.

the forces were comprised of darkseid's 'elite forces'......

and, again, i'd love to see proof of mb's ability to protect orion from tp. mb gets a LOT of credit. not saying it's impossible. in his earlier career, mb was used more than it has been in the last bunch of years. but has it ever protected him--actively--from a tp assault? not that i know of.....

There was another incident I saw a while back, which shows the lowest of NG's. Probably Busiek's run. Can't remember. And MM has had a hard time reading Darkseid, so...

By Darkseid's elite, do you mean Granny Goodness, Fatal Furies, etc...? Because regular troops, with high status can be "Darkseid's elite".

Originally posted by Prep-Man
There was another incident I saw a while back, which shows the lowest of NG's. Probably Busiek's run. Can't remember. And MM has had a hard time reading Darkseid, so...

By Darkseid's elite, do you mean Granny Goodness, Fatal Furies, etc...? Because regular troops, with high status can be "Darkseid's elite".

well, i would expect darkseid to be immune, given that he has his own tp.....

the elite were comprised of a bunch of beings. however, you raised a fair point. so i went back and took a look again at the issue, and......

turns out my earlier post was premature. i read some of the issues too quickly is seems. there was one page that showed the 'commanders' of darkseid's forces stayed to try and keep the lowlier forces from fleeing! that would indicate that perhaps the higher ups DO have the resistance you mentioned!! 😂

do, i retract my previous post and instead say that the weight of evidence from that series DOES support the resistance to tp that has been supposed!

cripes. of course, max DID ko orion. i think i'll settle for something in the middle. very high resistance, but not immunity. the martians never really pressed an attack against a commander but instead tried to have them all swept up by the wave of lowlies and driven back to the boom tube. what would have happened had they focused their tp on a commander? shrug

so, there you have it. pologies for the confusion. reading and watching football=/=focused reading! 😂

Originally posted by leonidas
[B]the forces were comprised of darkseid's 'elite forces'......

No.

It took the entire planet, or what was left of it, pooling their telepathic abilities to effect the PARADEMONS, who were otherwise immune to their mind abilities.

The few members of Darkseid's elite - the Furies - who were there were STILL unaffected by the mind attacks, they were just swept up in the onrush of the parademons fleeing.

Edit: Damn, and now I see that you saw that.

As for this fight, Nate Grey's total inability to subdue the far less powerful Marvel Ares thanks to his esoteric 'god powers' tells me that Nate would be absolutely outmatched by Orion.

Shaman Nate >>>> Maxima.

Maxima mind-raped Orion with a psi bolt.

Shaman Nate Grey stomps.

Originally posted by Desaad As for this fight, Nate Grey's total inability to subdue the far less powerful Marvel Ares thanks to his esoteric 'god powers' tells me that Nate would be absolutely outmatched by Orion.

good point. orion for the majority.

I'm pretty sure telepathy has worked on Orion more than once. As a matter of fact, I remember John telepathically affecting him in the JLA. One arc that comes to mind is when they were kidnapped and made slaves by a powerful race. I need to double check before I can comment on the extent.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm pretty sure telepathy has worked on Orion more than once. As a matter of fact, I remember John telepathically affecting him in the JLA. One arc that comes to mind is when they were kidnapped and made slaves by a powerful race. I need to double check before I can comment on the extent.

i'd thought that too but had no luck finding anything. i don't think he went against a telepath at all in his own series run. if you find the arc, definitely let me know.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'd thought that too but had no luck finding anything. i don't think he went against a telepath at all in his own series run. if you find the arc, definitely let me know.

Try JLA v3 #20. The arc starts a little earlier (Maybe #18) so go through all of it just to get all the context, it's been a while since I've read it.

Originally posted by leonidas
so..... went through the last bunch of martian manhunter v2 books. pretty good reads for the most part. not awesome, but i enjoyed them. i had been unaware that it was the martians who actually turned darkseid onto the anti-life equation. interesting little fact right there.....

for all the talk about how that series showed the new gods are 'immune' to telepathic attack though.....? ❌

or, rather, not decisively. the denizens of apokalips had thoughts that were 'opaque' to the martians. what that meant in the context of the series was that the martians could not casually read their minds, something they never really pressed because it is against their ethics. of course, that 'opaqueness' was a plot device to allow the new gods to trick the martians. ironically, later, when the new gods were forced to leave, the martians forced them by merging their thoughts and using a telepathic command to chase darkseid's army away from the planet! so the new gods were certainly NOT immune, though their thoughts could not be read passively.

all that means, imho, is that (1) a focused tp assault could very well be used against a new god (2) a POWERFUL enough attack (like the merged assault used to drive the army away) CERTAINLY can work.

low level tp's probably couldn't do anything to a new god. an uber tp (like, say.... maxima, or nate 🙂 )? yeah, i'd say that the new gods are not beyond being f'd up by someone with sufficient power. thanks to prepman for convincing me to finally take an active part in solving this little issue. new god immunity has been a question on the forum for a very long time. all the proof falls inbetween issues 32-36 in martian manhunter v2. i'm just too lazy to upload scans and frankly did the checking for my own peace of mind anyway. 😂

Very refreshing to have someone actually read the material to get the full context as opposed to scan sharking it. The actual comics give you tone, mood and feel that scans of particular sequences can't provide.

the only time i remember mm scanning orions mind was when guy gardner was talking back to orion and mm read his mind to tell guy that he better be careful, because orion had thought of a number of ways to kill him. pretty bad ass scene if i remember it correctly. lol.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Try JLA v3 #20. The arc starts a little earlier (Maybe #18) so go through all of it just to get all the context, it's been a while since I've read it.

Does this have something to do with the JLA being captured on Rann, and Steel discovering that Orion's mother box had been trying to shield the new god from the En'Tarans, but couldn't because all its energy was expended trying to calm him down?

Originally posted by dmills
Very refreshing to have someone actually read the material to get the full context as opposed to scan sharking it. The actual comics give you tone, mood and feel that scans of particular sequences can't provide.

Except he was wrong, and admitted as much.

The New Gods, as of Ostrander's Martian Manhunter, were totally and completely immune to martian telepathy. The lowlies were largely immune as well, though a large group of them combining their abilities was enough to overcome that.

Couple this with Grey's demonstrated weakness against god-types, specifically god of war types, specifically god of war types that are obviously less powerful than Orion/Thor, and it becomes fairly clear cut, the end result here.

He has no weakness against, God Type characters. Barring telepathy it becomes a physical fight, to which Nate has much to bring to the field.

well, thanks for reiterating that i was wrong. 😂

as for them being 'totally and completely immune' to martian tp--maybe. like i said, their thoughts were opaque and the martians never really TRIED to pierce them because that is against their ethics. the collective cry was only performed by a few, and it was directed across the entire planet, so, it's overall strength is in doubt.

in that jla arc (my thanks rage 🙂 ), orion NEEDED motherbox to protect him from telepathy, so clearly he wasn't immune to it as has been said. further proof comes from maxima's easy ko of him.

could motherbox shield him from nate's tp? maybe. probably. but from his tk? not sure. could nate remove mb? steel did so easily enough, and mb's can be destroyed.

as far as the ares fight--pretty inconclusive, imo. at one point ares even ASKS nate if he is going to fight back. nate simply spent his time trying to avoid ares. he never blasted him, or used any real offense at all against him, so i don't think that fight showed anything at all, frankly--except that ares can perceive time in a way that he'd never shown before.

i guess the fight comes down to whether you think mb can protect orion or survive a direct attack from a po'd nate. personally, i don't think so, but you're welcome to your opinion.

What's nate's best physical feat?

Originally posted by abhilegend
What's nate's best physical feat?

In his sleep. TK crushed a city.
In an unconscious state. Can create a psi blast big enough to wipe out all of Asia.
Can release enough energy to destroy the Earth.