Originally posted by leonidas
well, thanks for reiterating that i was wrong. 😂
Haha, sorry, but props for admitting it rather than just letting people go on believing it. It takes some character to do that, in all seriousness. I certainly didn't mean anything malicious by pointing it out, it just seemed like the guy had ignored your self correction.
as for them being 'totally and completely immune' to martian tp--maybe. like i said, their thoughts were opaque and the martians never really TRIED to pierce them because that is against their ethics. the collective cry was only performed by a few, and it was directed across the entire planet, so, it's overall strength is in doubt.
Martian Manhunter mentions that he just can't read New God thoughts, that it's like grabbing at nothing.
In fact, their one minor telepath - Glorious Godfrey - was able to work HIS influential magic on THEM, winning them all over to his side. It's never overtly stated, but MM's internal monologue makes it pretty clear that there was something unnatural about the way hew as able to convince them all.
in that jla arc (my thanks rage 🙂 ), orion NEEDED motherbox to protect him from telepathy, so clearly he wasn't immune to it as has been said. further proof comes from maxima's easy ko of him.
I'm certainly not going to say that there is 100% consistency there, but even if you take that into account -- he's still got mother box to protect him from telepathy (I'm taking your word on the JLA arc -- it's been years since I've read it, but I don't recall anything about telepathy specifically).
could motherbox shield him from nate's tp? maybe. probably. but from his tk? not sure. could nate remove mb? steel did so easily enough, and mb's can be destroyed.
MB's generally cannot be destroyed unless they will it to happen, self destructing or killing themselves. Orion was able to call his back to him without issue even after it went 'dead' from his corruption.
as far as the ares fight--pretty inconclusive, imo. at one point ares even ASKS nate if he is going to fight back. nate simply spent his time trying to avoid ares. he never blasted him, or used any real offense at all against him, so i don't think that fight showed anything at all, frankly--except that ares can perceive time in a way that he'd never shown before.
I think it showed that despite Nate's best efforts he couldn't stall or get away from a God, that his esoteric abilities weren't effective against them. Is your argument really that Nate could have put Ares down at any time and gotten away but...what, chose not to? The clear implication of that encounter was that Ares was, to Nate, unstoppable. That he wasn't fighting back because he didn't think it would help, and that running away was his only option.
i guess the fight comes down to whether you think mb can protect orion or survive a direct attack from a po'd nate. personally, i don't think so, but you're welcome to your opinion.
Well, only if you ignore the Martian Manhunter showing, which you seem oddly quick to do.
It comes down to this; New Gods have shown massive telepathic immunity to 'normal' telepaths. In the instances that they haven't, Mother box has been shown to help. And then you have one instance of Orion being knocked out by a sneak attack telepathic attack.
Just in terms of telepathic resistance, it seems it is more likely that Orion is to be immune to telepathy - as he has two different methods - than not. Especially when you consider that Nate was having trouble with Norman's psyche, just that of a normal man.
And then when you take into account Nate's demonstrated inability to put down a god, a much less powerful god, I again can't help but feel this is a no brainer.
Originally posted by "Id"
In his sleep. TK crushed a city.
In an unconscious state. Can create a psi blast big enough to wipe out all of Asia.
Can release enough energy to destroy the Earth.
Orion threatens to tear apart earth by firing on moon
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-28.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-29.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-30.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-31.jpg
Originally posted by abhilegend
Not good enough, nate has to deal with this along with a superman class brick with hundreds of years of experience of combat.Orion threatens to tear apart earth by [b]firing on moon
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-28.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-29.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-30.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/JLATitans1of3-31.jpg [/B]
I was expecting something more impressive...instead I am treated by a small claim, and a lesser feat to gawk at. srsly
I am superman class brick, with moon blasting power. Yeah well Nate is a Psychic Force, and Planet Shattering blasts.
Originally posted by "Id"
This is very twilight zonish.I was expecting something more impressive...instead I am treated by a small claim, and a lesser feat to gawk at. srsly
I am superman class brick, with moon blasting power. Yeah well Nate is a Psychic Force, and Planet Shattering blasts.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Point me to the scan where someone causes earthquakes on richter scale by firing energy on moon? Batman, superman and steel confirmed that he would tear apart earth if he didn't stop.
Even so, my point still stands. Nate easily walks with enough power, to bully Orion given that his Planet Wrecking blast is superior to Orions.
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2769/xman03905.jpg
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3153/xman03906.jpg
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/9936/xman0390708.jpg
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6392/xman047page09image0001.jpg
Originally posted by abhilegend
. Superman, you know the guy who is a measuring stick for strength, well orion has never lost to him in a fist fight. Didn't nate got his tk field torn apart by professor hulk, IIRC?
Look your pointing out a moment when his tk was bested in his younger years. And no one is claiming Nate's TK field is indestructible. As time progressed he became more adept with his powers, until he evolved into infamous Shaman.
Take for example several issues later, when he is physically exchanging shots with Modt who is 1,000 times more powerful than Jahf before his defenses crumbled.
Just pointing that out, so you can be more careful measuring up Nate.
And really, you have to question how good is Orion physical stats will be, against a character who can go intangible at will. Pre-Depowerment, his body was nothing more than a psi-construct molded by his own power.
Originally posted by "Id"
It actually makes even [b]less sense. You can fire at the moon, and shows that if he continues the Earth will be town apart. Yet the Moon shows no signs damage?Even so, my point still stands. Nate easily walks with enough power, to bully Orion given that his Planet Wrecking blast is superior to Orions.
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2769/xman03905.jpg
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3153/xman03906.jpg
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/9936/xman0390708.jpg
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/6392/xman047page09image0001.jpgPre-Shaman era.
Look your pointing out a moment when his tk was bested in his younger years. And no one is claiming Nate's TK field is indestructible. As time progressed he became more adept with his powers, until he evolved into infamous Shaman.
Take for example several issues later, when he is physically exchanging shots with Modt who is 1,000 times more powerful than Jahf before his defenses crumbled.
Just pointing that out, so you can be more careful measuring up Nate.
And really, you have to question how good is Orion physical stats will be, against a character who can go intangible at will. Pre-Depowerment, his body was nothing more than a psi-construct molded by his own power. [/B]
Originally posted by Desaad
Haha, sorry, but props for admitting it rather than just letting people go on believing it. It takes some character to do that, in all seriousness. I certainly didn't mean anything malicious by pointing it out, it just seemed like the guy had ignored your self correction.Martian Manhunter mentions that he just can't read New God thoughts, that it's like grabbing at nothing.
In fact, their one minor telepath - Glorious Godfrey - was able to work HIS influential magic on THEM, winning them all over to his side. It's never overtly stated, but MM's internal monologue makes it pretty clear that there was something unnatural about the way hew as able to convince them all.
I'm certainly not going to say that there is 100% consistency there, but even if you take that into account -- he's still got mother box to protect him from telepathy (I'm taking your word on the JLA arc -- it's been years since I've read it, but I don't recall anything about telepathy specifically).
MB's generally cannot be destroyed unless they will it to happen, self destructing or killing themselves. Orion was able to call his back to him without issue even after it went 'dead' from his corruption.
I think it showed that despite Nate's best efforts he couldn't stall or get away from a God, that his esoteric abilities weren't effective against them. Is your argument really that Nate could have put Ares down at any time and gotten away but...what, chose not to? The clear implication of that encounter was that Ares was, to Nate, unstoppable. That he wasn't fighting back because he didn't think it would help, and that running away was his only option.
Well, only if you ignore the Martian Manhunter showing, which you seem oddly quick to do.
It comes down to this; New Gods have shown massive telepathic immunity to 'normal' telepaths. In the instances that they haven't, Mother box has been shown to help. And then you have one instance of Orion being knocked out by a sneak attack telepathic attack.
Just in terms of telepathic resistance, it seems it is more likely that Orion is to be immune to telepathy - as he has two different methods - than not. Especially when you consider that Nate was having trouble with Norman's psyche, just that of a normal man.
And then when you take into account Nate's demonstrated inability to put down a god, a much less powerful god, I again can't help but feel this is a no brainer.
godrefy did convince them, but not all of them. jonnz mom didn't believe him. i think the others wanted to and it took quite a while. and again, it's true the martians weren't able to read their minds, but they made a point of not TRYING either. until the end, when most of them were dead or taken. what would have happened had there been a concerted effort against one of the new gods? not sure....
here's the jla scans. it wanted to shield orion, but couldn't because of his anger. it didn't shield him until steel actually takes the mb and reprograms it. throughout the arc, even when he wasn't raging, adam strange made a point of not telling any of the jla (except jonn) about his on-going plan because the entarans would have pulled it from their minds. the need of mb's protection and strange's unwillingness to share his info seem to pretty clearly to indicate to me that orion is not immune to tp.
http://imageshack.us/f/824/jla02104.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/6/jla02105.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/585/jla02106.jpg/
as far as mb: it may protect orion. but he had it and the entarans still seemed able to read his mind and affect him with their telepathic whips. would it be strong enough to save orion? beats me, but nate's tp is REALLY uber. but still, maybe.
i'm not saying nate could have taken ares out at any time. ares is a beast. i AM saying that he didn't actually TRY and hurt him--or any of them, btw--and that it was implied in the issue that nate didn't really WANT to escape because in the end he took over norman. after catching ares' axe with his hands, he didn't even bother using a shield! no blasts, no tk, no anything. i just think he didn't really TRY to fight back. as a result, i don't think that anything can be gained from looking at that fight.
i'm not 'quickly' dismissing the manhunter issue, but i don't see it as relevant as you do because (a) this is about orion and he wasn't even IN the issue, and (b) max has taken him out and the jla issue indicates to me he needs to be SHIELDED from tp by mb. that's enough to tell me he has no natural immunity.
can orion win this fight? of course. but i think nate can certainly take some as well. mb's have been destroyed in the past. not sure nate could do it. this is a hard fight to call imo, and i certainly don't see it as a no-brainer.
Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, i'm not sure..... orion is not immune to tp or its effects so theoretically nate should be able to affect him that way. i'd give orion the overall power edge for sure, but nate is not that far behind and has better overall mastery of his skillset. no sweeps either way for sure, but not sure who would take a majority. too many different ways this battle could go. i could even see the occasional stomp in either direction. shrug
