Those feats on their own are way up there for what I've seen across Zelda.Those feats come from weakened versions of the same characters. Link and Ganon here lack the primary sources of their power in later titles. 😐
In SS, the deities that can casually do such bullshit are fodder next to Demise, a weaker 'Dorf, who did in fact crush Midna, defeating her off screen in seconds.
Oh, and Zant, with a fraction of Dorf's power dismisses the regional deities in TP effortlessly as well.
My point is I don't buy that any of them having any particular triforce pieces gives them an automatic pass to being better than feats we've seen in SS, when the feats in SS are so good.
I just don't 'buy' that they are all of a sudden more destructive than they've shown before. Surely the effects can be more subtle than simply being more BOOM, and stuffs.
Powerscaling within SS, I totally buy that, but across games, I'm just less sure here, because the narrative in LoZ is so damn vague as to particular meanings. Nintendo doesn't help here either.
Originally posted by CosmicCometExcept that the feats in SS aren't even all that great. We've seen Ganondorf bust an island and turn off the sun with his power sealed away in WW, and the Master Sword seal (at least) an entire country (possibly the world, but won't claim that.) frozen in time while depowered. Ect.
My point is I don't buy that any of them having any particular triforce pieces gives them an automatic pass to being better than feats we've seen in SS, when the feats in SS are so good.I just don't 'buy' that they are all of a sudden more destructive than they've shown before. Surely the effects can be more subtle than simply being more BOOM, and stuffs.
Powerscaling within SS, I totally buy that, but across games, I'm just less sure here, because the narrative in LoZ is so damn vague as to particular meanings. Nintendo doesn't help here either.
We've seen Zant, with a fraction his Ganon's power overlap all of Hytule with another dimension, we've seen Aganihm cause natural distasters, ect.
Edit: The short version is Demise is plainly weaker than Ganon, and Link without the ToC is weaker than Link with it.
Gonna have to disagree Scream.
Demise without the ToP CONQUERED TIME, which is why his hatred can even manifest itself as Ganondorf later on.
He was also so powerful that he came close to defeating what was at the time the 4th most powerful being ever.
When you fight Demise you fight him in a pocket dimension that he created in a second and he promises that as soon as he kills you he'll annihilate the entire world.
Additionally SS Link is in tune with the entire triforce and PIS aside he could have wished Demise away a second time...
SS Link doesn't have cutscene feats of strength but what he does have is going sword to sword against a character that easily busts Impa's shield.
Fi is more powerful than Hylia was, she wasn't the fourth most powerful being ever, and would indeed have lost to Demise had they fought again.
Conquering time is indeed why he returns.
When Link fought Demise he left the entire Triforce behind in the future for PIS reasons.
Demise actively sought the same thing Ganondorf did, the triforce, for it's power. Ganondorf actually got a piece, and even with the bulk of his power sealed in WW has feats comparable to or superior to Demise's except for that conquering time thing. We don't actually know how he did that or what it entails, but it's pretty badass.
TP Link goes Sword to Sword with Demise's reincarnated, bigger, badder self. :/
SS is undoubtedly the better game, but SS Link doesn't have the feats or ToC TP Link does.
SS Link is a badass, but he's low tier on the Link-scale. Hylia's power is obviously less than that of the Old Gods because she wanted to use the Triforce as well. Fi is on par with said triforce, making her more powerful than Hylia. Fi is really the key reason Link won, heh.
Did the ToC actually do anything offensively or defensively for Link? All it did was protect him in the Twilight Realm. Or give him Courage I guess which wouldn't help here...
And SS Link was in perfect balance with the Triforce as he was able to use the whole thing without adverse effects. And he had the full marks on his hand... not that it means much mind you, but he has shown more control over the Triforce than TP Link, which could help him against it if it was used as a weapon.
Plus, when Demise was defeated the first time, it took Hylia in her full form, and the five tribes, and she could only seal him away with a temporary seal. The second time, he had Hylia's soul inside him, and was beginning to fully consume it.
And if Fi is on par with the Triforce, then what does that make Hylia? Since Hylia created Fi. Or Ghirahim for that matter who was the opposite of Fi.
Either way Link overcame Demise consuming Hylia's soul, an opposite Master Sword, and this was right after two huge fights. And Demise on his own was vastly more powerful than Ghirahim.
I don't see how it can be made so cut and dry that TP Link is above SS Link.
Originally posted by Sr J-BiebGiving you courage isn't what the ToC does at all, though. Link receives it because he is courageous to begin with. All of the pieces of the triforce are explicitly powerful artifacts, lol.
Did the ToC actually do anything offensively or defensively for Link? All it did was protect him in the Twilight Realm. Or give him Courage I guess which wouldn't help here...
And SS Link was in perfect balance with the Triforce as he was able to use the whole thing without adverse effects. And he had the full marks on his hand... not that it means much mind you, but he has shown more control over the Triforce than TP Link, which could help him against it if it was used as a weapon.Plus, when Demise was defeated the first time, it took Hylia in her full form, and the five tribes, and she could only seal him away with a temporary seal. The second time, he had Hylia's soul inside him, and was beginning to fully consume it.
And if Fi is on par with the Triforce, then what does that make Hylia? Since Hylia created Fi. Or Ghirahim for that matter who was the opposite of Fi.
Either way Link overcame Demise consuming Hylia's soul, an opposite Master Sword, and this was right after two huge fights. And Demise on his own was vastly more powerful than Ghirahim.I don't see how it can be made so cut and dry that TP Link is above SS Link.
Link in SS is brought in balance with the Triforce an also has the unique opportunity to actually collect the entire thing. Something few other Links actually get to do. This opportunity would not protect him from TP Link's enhanced strength and the like.
Not sure what your point is. The first time Hylia defeated him, the second time Link did, yes. Link with the Master Sword, which is > Hylia.
Hylia only made the goddess Sword. It was then empowered by three more goddesses, the three who created everything, including the Triforce, which Hylia seeks to use against Demise because her own power is insufficient. In aLttP the Master Sword, Fi, is directly stated to be a failsafe for the misuse of the triforce.
Ghirahim being her opposite does not make him her equal.
Demise < Ganondorf, no Triforce of Power. Ganondorf is his reincarnation, and he actually gets the ToP.
All in all, SS Link is not as powerful as TP Link. He doesn't have as good of feats, or the ToC.
I gotta agree with Cyner, Cosmic Current, and Sr J-Bieb that just because TP Link has the ToC that doesn't make him superior to any Link who doesn't.
I'm giving it to SS Link.
Demise < Ganondorf, no Triforce of Power. Ganondorf is his reincarnation, and he actually gets the ToP.
Where does this come from?
The game claims that Ganondorf is merely an incarnation of his hatred. That doesn't mean Ganodrof is Demise reincarnated, but rather that Ganondorf was corrupted by this hatred. Demise himself is, according to Fi, eradicated and his consciousness was sealed in the master sword.
I gotta agree with Cyner, Cosmic Current, and Sr J-Bieb that just because TP Link has the ToC that doesn't make him superior to any Link who doesn't.Then post some feats.I'm giving it to SS Link.
TP Link's are all better.
The Link with the amp is better than the Link without the amp, this is pretty plain.
Where does this come from?The game claims that Ganondorf is merely an incarnation of his hatred. That doesn't mean Ganodrof is Demise reincarnated, but rather that Ganondorf was corrupted by this hatred. Demise himself is, according to Fi, eradicated and his consciousness was sealed in the master sword.
Strange how exactly what Demise says will happen happens. An incarnation, which looks almost exactly like him down to the blatantly ridiculous height, comes back over and over, making life hard for Hyrule, eh? The sword absorbs his consciousness, what's left over isn't said.
Incarnation is even in bold red. This is important
Ganondorf without the ToP is also pretty explicitly powerful. With it, he's better than Demise, by feats and plain logic. A weakened Dorf has better feats than Demise does, lol.
SS is the better game, it's protagonist and antagonist are weaker, however.
Originally posted by ScreamPasteWhat does it do for Link then? What has it done for Link that would be relevant here? Why is Link more powerful with it? Because it sure as hell didn't seem to do anything except help him in the Twilight Realm.
Giving you courage isn't what the ToC does at all, though. Link receives it because he is courageous to begin with. All of the pieces of the triforce are explicitly powerful artifacts, lol.Link in SS is brought in balance with the Triforce an also has the unique opportunity to actually collect the entire thing. Something few other Links actually get to do. This opportunity would not protect him from TP Link's enhanced strength and the like.
Not sure what your point is. The first time Hylia defeated him, the second time Link did, yes. Link with the Master Sword, which is > Hylia.
Hylia only made the goddess Sword. It was then empowered by three more goddesses, the three who created [b]everything
, including the Triforce, which Hylia seeks to use against Demise because her own power is insufficient. In aLttP the Master Sword, Fi, is directly stated to be a failsafe for the misuse of the triforce.Ghirahim being her opposite does not make him her equal.
Demise < Ganondorf, no Triforce of Power. Ganondorf is his reincarnation, and he actually gets the ToP.
All in all, SS Link is not as powerful as TP Link. He doesn't have as good of feats, or the ToC. [/B]
It would protect him theoretically from any theoretical attacks from TP Link's shard that hasn't shown to power him up.
That Demise was immensily powerful. He's able to match the yes, 4th strongest being, and he can't simply be put under Ganon just because he has the Triforce of Power. I don't see the solid fact there is all. Especially when Demise basically has a Master NegaSword.
Hylia made Fi though. And after it was empowered by the three flames, Hylia empowered it even farther.
She's the one who sealed it away, and allowed it so that mortals can use the Triforce. If she wanted to, I see no reason why she couldn't have used the Triforce.
Plus, the misuse of the Triforce would be by evil beings, which the Master Sword is the bane of, so I don't see why that line would mean that it is equal to Triforce. Especially when it has nothing on the Triforce in terms of feats.
Maybe so, but he sure as hell didn't show he was far below Fi if at all. Empowering beings, creating hundreds of beings, creating a spell to bring back Demise, etc.
A reincarnation doesn't mean the exact same level of power. He was a reincarnation of hatred, not necessarily power. I don't think you can paint one above the other with such little info into their limits.
Let's be honest, the ToC is irrelevant. And what are Link's feats that are above SS' Link? Sumo wrestling a Goron?
SS had better sword skills though, so he may win. 😛
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Then post some feats.TP Link's are all better.
Defeating Demise.
The Link with the amp is better than the Link without the amp, this is pretty plain.
Unless all Links aren’t equal…
Strange how exactly what Demise says will happen happens. An incarnation, which looks almost exactly like him down to the blatantly ridiculous height, comes back over and over, making life hard for Hyrule, eh? The sword absorbs his consciousness, what's left over isn't said.
Demise looks far more like Akuma than Ganondorf. Regardless, appearance alone does not mean they are the same.
And if Ganon was purely a reincarnation of Demise and his consciousness was not freed from the Master Sword then he would have no consciousness ...
Incarnation is even in bold red. This is important
You know what's more important? The whole damn sentence. Ganondorf is an incarnation of Demise's hatred... That doesn't mean he is Demise reincarnated. However, if you have direct evidence to the contrary I will gladly accept it. Still Fi says he was eradicated suggesting that he will never come back.
Ganondorf without the ToP is also pretty explicitly powerful. With it, he's better than Demise, by feats and plain logic. A weakened Dorf has better feats than Demise does, lol.
What did WW Dorf do that was so damn impressive? Make it storm for awhile? Demise casually creates pocket dimensions, created all known monsters, conquered time (whatever that means), badly wounded Hylia a being who is capable of holding up an entire island indefinitely, has a sword which is capable of defeating what you call “a casual city buster” and can create or summon entire armies at will, etc…
What does it do for Link then? What has it done for Link that would be relevant here? Why is Link more powerful with it? Because it sure as hell didn't seem to do anything except help him in the Twilight Realm.It would protect him theoretically from any theoretical attacks from TP Link's shard that hasn't shown to power him up.
Ganondorf tells the player directly in OoT that Link's power comes from the ToC, which he receives right before he starts doing things that are blatantly super-human.
The triforce pieces amp their wielders, this is pretty plain to see, lol.
Except it wouldn't, because SS Link doesn't actually possess any of the triforce. He can't exert control over TP Link's ToC because TP Link has it. 😐
That Demise was immensily powerful. He's able to match the yes, 4th strongest being,
Hylia could not use the triforce as a goddess, and she needed the power of the triforce to beat Demise. Fi is a failsafe for the entire triforce. Fi > Hylia. Her taking human form for this exact reason is a major plot point.
and he can't simply be put under Ganon just because he has the Triforce of Power.Ganon's feats are better anyway, and yes he can. Lol. Ganon with his power sealed away effectively turns off the sun, breaks out of a seal created by the remaining deities in Hyrule who flooded the world, resists a time stop along the way, and busts an island.
Even with his power sealed away, he's got better feats then Demise.
Especially when Demise basically has a Master NegaSworExcept nothing puts Ghirahim on Fi's level. He's never empowered by the other goddesses and wass created by Demise who lost to Hylia who is small potatoes to the other goddesses. 😐
In WW, Fi is depowered. She still maintains a country-wide (at least, probably world wide) time stop. 😐 Yeah.
Plus, the misuse of the Triforce would be by evil beings, which the Master Sword is the bane of, so I don't see why that line would mean that it is equal to Triforce. Especially when it has nothing on the Triforce in terms of feats.
Maybe so, but he sure as hell didn't show he was far below Fi if at all. Empowering beings, creating hundreds of beings, creating a spell to bring back Demise, etc.Being less powerful than Demise who is roflstomped by the Triforce.
A reincarnation doesn't mean the exact same level of power. He was a reincarnation of hatred, not necessarily power. I don't think you can paint one above the other with such little info into their limits.
Let's be honest, the ToC is irrelevant. And what are Link's feats that are above SS' Link? Sumo wrestling a Goron?
SS had better sword skills though, so he may win.
SS Link's sword skills are better? Based on what? Lol. Nothing says that. It's impossible to say any Link has the better sword skill than any other. Especially since one of Link's apparent super powers is instant mastery of whatever he touches.
Defeating Demise.Demise < Ganondorf.
Unless all Links aren’t equal…They aren't. Some have more of the Triforce than others. 😎
Nah, but this isn't a point since TP Link has better feats AND an amp.
Demise looks far more like Akuma than Ganondorf. Regardless, appearance alone does not mean they are the same.Dat red hair, massive height and build, off-colour-skin, massive nose, facial shape, yeah, nothing like Ganondorf.
And if Ganon was purely a reincarnation of Demise and his consciousness was not freed from the Master Sword then he would have no consciousness ...Not really, now we're arguing semantics. Lol. Whatever it is that Demise was made of, and it's entirely possible it was pure hate anyway, reincarnated itself with a seperate consciousness. Ganondorf doesn't remember or even know about the events of SS, different consciousness. He still looks and acts very similar, with the exact same goal, the triforce, did I mention he wanted the triforce, which Ganon actuallygets a piece of? He does.
Ganon > Demise.
You know what's more important? The whole damn sentence. Ganondorf is an incarnation of Demise's hatred... That doesn't mean he is Demise reincarnated. However, if you have direct evidence to the contrary I will gladly accept it. Still Fi says he was eradicated suggesting that he will never come back.
What did WW Dorf do that was so damn impressive?Listed above.
Demise casually creates pocket dimensions,
created all known monsters,All known at the time of SS.
badly wounded Hylia a being who is cape able of holding up an entire island indefinitely, has a sword which is capable of defeating what you call “a casual city buster” and can create or summon entire armies at will, etc…Your point?
Yeah, Hylia holds up Skyloft. That's not that great of a feat, lol.
Ghirahim can fight Faron and win, yes. The same Faron who requires a hero to stop Demise.
Fi is on par with the triforce, which is explicitly > Demise, Ghirahim, Hylia, ect, lol.
TP Link wins.
Originally posted by ares834Considering Zant had no power before he acquired Ganondorf's power, yes.
Did he do that through Ganon's power?IIRC, he did it by defeating the Light Spirits who were then unable to hold back the twilight.
Also, did he actually merge the relams or did he cover Hyrule with twilight? I always assumed it was the latter.
Zant has shown the ability to consciously infect areas with the Twilight Realm, not just pwning Light Spirits to make them overlap, if memory serves. Also, even assuming you are correct in your assumption, Zant defeating several spirits who prevent a country from being overlapped by another dimension is a better feat than beating up some ***** who makes a small island float.
I can't remember off the top of my head, but I'm not really seeing the relevance.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Demise < Ganondorf.
Cool. Even if true, TP Link doesn’t beat Ganondorf on his own, Midna and Zelda help him.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Nah, but this isn't a point since TP Link has better feats
Name them.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Dat red hair, massive height and build, off-colour-skin, massive nose, facial shape, yeah, nothing like Ganondorf.
Where did I say they didn’t look similar? lol
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Not really, now we're arguing semantics. Lol. Whatever it is that Demise was made of, and it's entirely possible it was pure hate anyway, reincarnated itself with a seperate consciousness. Ganondorf doesn't remember or even know about the events of SS, different consciousness. He still looks and acts very similar, with the exact same goal, the triforce, did I mention he wanted the triforce, which Ganon actuallygets a piece of? He does.
So no direct evidence that Ganondorf was a reincarnation of Demise. Gotcha.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Ganon > Demise.
You said that once already.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
1. It's entirely possible Demise is nothing but hatred.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
2. She says his consciousness is eradicated.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
3. I've already outlined the similarities.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
4. Ganon is better by feats, so moot point.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
5. He does come back, shit, before the game came out the devs told us this was Ganondorf's origin story.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Zant with a fraction of Ganon's power casually overlaps dimensions. 🙂
Direct quote stating this. All I recall him doing was shrouding the world with Twilight, that doesn’t mean the two dimensions were merging; afterall Link and Midna still need the Twilight Mirror to traverse between the two dimensions which should be unnecessary if the two are merged. Still creating dimensions is more impressive.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Yeah, Hylia holds up Skyloft. That's not that great of a feat, lol.
Really? And busting a hole in an island is somehow far more impressive?
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Ghirahim can fight Faron and win, yes. The same Faron who requires a hero to stop Demise.
Yeah? What’s your point?
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Fi is on par with the triforce, which is explicitly > Demise, Ghirahim, Hylia, ect, lol.
Again… What is you point? Fi > Ganondorf as well.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Zant has shown the ability to consciously infect areas with the Twilight Realm, not just pwning Light Spirits to make them overlap, if memory serves. Also, even assuming you are correct in your assumption, Zant defeating several spirits who prevent a country from being overlapped by another dimension is a better feat than beating up some ***** who makes a small island float.
Fair enough. Still creating dimensions > merging them.
Originally posted by NemeBro
I can't remember off the top of my head, but I'm not really seeing the relevance.
It’s highly relevant. There is a massive difference between merging dimensions and creating twilight to shroud the world.