Nephthys
Anakin in the zone was able to telekinetically manhandle the Son and Daughter, who according to ares were "more powerful with the force that any Jedi have seen before."
I'll correct you politely before the Moose exploits the opportunity to do so rudely. Ares, while undoubtedly dashing and suave, is not a valid source. In this case, the quote provided by him is attributed to the opening narrator of The Clone Wars series.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You say that like it matters.
I am talking about Post-DE incarnation of Malgus who has no notable weakness or worries. He has a clear mind and complete control over his emotions.
Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.
He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I doubt it. Obi-Wan does the same thing in RotS. I think its implied that he always fights like that.
Oneness with the Force means that a Force-user manages to become an extension of the Force itself.
The description you provided in your next post reveals that Obi-Wan was calm and this was happening:
The Force responded to his emotional state, caught him up in its power until he was awash in it.
There are two sides of the coin. If you focus on the other side, you will understand that Obi-Wan was calling upon the Force to block all secondary thoughts and build his strength. This is not a state of oneness. It is merely a tricky description of how Force works and Force-users call upon it.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, it matters.I am talking about Post-DE incarnation of Malgus who has no notable weakness or worries. He has a clear mind and complete control over his emotions.
Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.
He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.
Yes, I am well aware of what you were talking about. I just don't see how you think that matters in the face of Zonakins power.
Besides which the quote you provided isn't entirely persuasive. It says that Malgus 'felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it', not that he actually had. If at any point Anakin 'felt as if he were unstoppable', would you argue that he actually was unstoppable. Malgus just had some psuedo-epiphany, nothing more.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
When did Obi-Wan felt that he was not using the Force but actually had merged with it during his duels in ROTS?Oneness with the Force means that a Force-user manages to become an extension of the Force itself.
The description you provided in your next post reveals that Obi-Wan was calm and this was happening:
The Force responded to his emotional state, caught him up in its power until he was awash in it.
There are two sides of the coin. If you focus on the other side, you will understand that Obi-Wan was calling upon the Force to block all secondary thoughts and build his strength. This is not a state of oneness. It is merely a tricky description of how Force works and Force-users call upon it.
"This is Obi-Wan Kenobi in the light:
As he is prodded onto the bridge along with Anakin and Chancellor Palpatine, he has no need to look around to see the banks of control consoles tended by terrified Neimoidians. He doesn't have to turn his head to count the droidekas and super battle droids, or to gauge the positions of the brutal droid bodyguards. He doesn't bother to raise his eyes to meet the cold yellow stare fixed on him through a skull-mask of armorplast. He doesn't even need to reach into the Force. He has already let the Force reach into him. The Force flows over him and around him as though he has stepped into a crystal-pure waterfall lost in the green coils of a forgotten rain forest; when he opens himself to that sparkling stream it flows into him and through him and out again without the slightest interference from his conscious will. The part of him that calls itself Obi-Wan Kenobi is no more than a ripple, an eddy in the pool into which he endlessly pours.
.....
"That will not happen. I am in control here." The reply came through Obi-Wan's lips, but it was not truly Obi-Wan who spoke. Obi-Wan was not in control; he had no need for control. He had the Force.
It was the Force that spoke through him. Grievous stalked forward. Obi-Wan saw death in the cold yellow stare through the skull-mask's eyeholes, and it meant nothing to him at all.
....
The Force replied through Obi-Wan's lips, "I don't think so."
Here we can see Kenobi 'merging' with the Force to such a degree that it speaks through him. The text makes it clear that Obi-Wan is experiencing an unusual state of one-ness with the Force at the time. So yeah, quit acting as if Malgus did something incredible. Obi-Wan experienced an actual state of one-ness, he didn't just get a power-high and trip balls on how 'awesome' he is for killing his wife like a goddamn psycho.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is so unfair. Darth Malgus as of Deceived would utterly rape Anakin. Hell, I bet he'd be a tough match for Mace or Dooku.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus can go into similar mental state too. Using clarity and rage as a weapon.
If you think Malgus can defeat the Chosen 1 that curbstomped Dooku, than you are sorely Decieved.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, I am well aware of what you were talking about. I just don't see how you think that matters in the face of Zonakins power.
Now what is Zonakin? It is just a fan invented terminology to describe the refined state of mind of Anakin when he confronted Count Dooku and utilized Sith philosophy to deal with him.
Count Dooku had his prime moments but this was not his time. His dueling skills did not work against Anakin.
For Malgus, should I use the term Zonalgus?
Problem with Zonakin philosophy is that people assume that Anakin with a refined mental state can handle everybody. I accept that he would be a formidable opponent for many under this state but not unstoppable. He had the potential to become exceptional but lost it.
Yoda was confident that Obi-Wan could handle Anakin. And his assessment was proven. And nothing in the ROTS novelization suggests that Anakin was mentally disturbed during his duel with Obi-Wan. So?
Don't presume too much. Malgus is stronger and more dangerous then Count Dooku.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides which the quote you provided isn't entirely persuasive. It says that Malgus 'felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it', not that he actually had. If at any point Anakin 'felt as if he were unstoppable', would you argue that he actually was unstoppable. Malgus just had some psuedo-epiphany, nothing more.
Originally posted by Nephthys
"This is Obi-Wan Kenobi in the light:As he is prodded onto the bridge along with Anakin and Chancellor Palpatine, he has no need to look around to see the banks of control consoles tended by terrified Neimoidians. He doesn't have to turn his head to count the droidekas and super battle droids, or to gauge the positions of the brutal droid bodyguards. He doesn't bother to raise his eyes to meet the cold yellow stare fixed on him through a skull-mask of armorplast. He doesn't even need to reach into the Force. He has already let the Force reach into him. The Force flows over him and around him as though he has stepped into a crystal-pure waterfall lost in the green coils of a forgotten rain forest; when he opens himself to that sparkling stream it flows into him and through him and out again without the slightest interference from his conscious will. The part of him that calls itself Obi-Wan Kenobi is no more than a ripple, an eddy in the pool into which he endlessly pours.
.....
"That will not happen. I am in control here." The reply came through Obi-Wan's lips, but it was not truly Obi-Wan who spoke. Obi-Wan was not in control; he had no need for control. He had the Force.
It was the Force that spoke through him. Grievous stalked forward. Obi-Wan saw death in the cold yellow stare through the skull-mask's eyeholes, and it meant nothing to him at all.
....
The Force replied through Obi-Wan's lips, "I don't think so."
Here we can see Kenobi 'merging' with the Force to such a degree that it speaks through him. The text makes it clear that Obi-Wan is experiencing an unusual state of one-ness with the Force at the time. So yeah, quit acting as if Malgus did something incredible. Obi-Wan experienced an actual state of one-ness, he didn't just get a power-high and trip balls on how 'awesome' he is for killing his wife like a goddamn psycho.
Read this again:
The Force responded to his emotional state, caught him up in its power until he was awash in it.
This is condition of Malgus before the battle in Jedi Temple. Very similar to that of Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If you think Malgus can defeat the Chosen 1 that curbstomped Dooku, than you are sorely Decieved.
Count Dooku is inadequate basis. We need more evidence.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It matters. The death of Daru allowed Malgus to achieve an extremely refined mental state. He was able to empower himself to such a degree that the Force signature masking technique was rendered ineffective, and he left a trail of destruction in his path.
Yes, I know that. However, since Anakin is faaaaar more powerful than Malgus can ever hope to dream about (G-Canon statement puts Anakin at twice as powerful as Darth Sidious, widely believed to be the most powerful Sith Lord in the mythos), Anakins experience of tapping into his full potential is much more effective than Malgus'.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now what is Zonakin? It is just a fan invented terminology to describe the refined state of mind of Anakin when he confronted Count Dooku and utilized Sith philosophy to deal with him.
Correct in the first regard. However you sell Zonakin short. It allowed Anakin to reach a state in which Dooku became a complete joke in comparision and where he was able to end the duel when he felt like it.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Count Dooku had his prime moments but this was not his time. His dueling skills did not work against Anakin.
It was of no fault of Dooku's. Anakin simply surpassed him.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For Malgus, should I use the term Zonalgus?
If you wanted to. But it would be supremely disingenuous of you to assume that you can compare the state Anakin achieved and Malgus achieved and expect us to value them the same. Anakin is the Chosen One. Malgus is just another Sith Lord.
Do you understand?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Problem with Zonakin philosophy is that people assume that Anakin with a refined mental state can handle everybody. I accept that he would be a formidable opponent for many under this state but not unstoppable. He had the potential to become exceptional but lost it.
We've never said that Anakin would be unstoppable in this state. But the fact remains that he was elevated to a degree where Dooku's Force Mastery became irrelevent and in which Anakin curbstomped him without effort. Not even Yoda was capable of that.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda was confident that Obi-Wan could handle Anakin. And his assessment was proven. And nothing in the ROTS novelization suggests that Anakin was mentally disturbed during his duel with Obi-Wan. So?
Anakin obviously was disturbed in that duel, and at the very least was not able to reach the lofty heights he had in his duel with Dooku, otherwise you bet you ass he would have beaten Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Don't presume too much. Malgus is stronger and more dangerous then Count Dooku.
I'm sorry, I don't think those claims have been proven as of yet, kekeke.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus got empowered to such a degree by his mental condition at that moment that he felt like that. There is substance behind this psuedo-epiphany.
There is no substance in a feeling. Your point is without merit.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, I read this.Read this again:
The Force responded to his emotional state, caught him up in its power until he was awash in it.
This is condition of Malgus before the battle in Jedi Temple. Very similar to that of Obi-Wan.
Not in the slightest. Again I say, Obi-Wan was in such a state that the Force spoke directly through him. You fail sir.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sir, snap out of this nonsense.Count Dooku is inadequate basis. We need more evidence.
I think we have enough evidence from our last debate to establish that Dooku is in no way inadequate compared to Malgus, kekeke.
Anakin. He was able to defeat Dooku, who was one of the finest fencers in the jedi order (he was at the same level with Yoda and Windu). And Malgus? He defeat an exhausted master Darach. He lost to young Satele Shan in a force fight. His force powers was impressive only vs weaker people then himself. I don't know master Zallow skills (i mean i don't know how good he really is - maybe Kit Fisto level?) but Malgus had some problems with him. Dooku and Sidious on the other hand were able to destroy jedi masters without problems (Dooku vs Bulq, or Kenobi, Sidious vs Fisto, Kolar, Tinn).